UA pilot falls foul of idiotically low UK alcohol law
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I need a drink
I have been indulging in the posts, (pun), and am amazed at the variety of views.
Not having been there, this individual obviously showed signs that brought attention to the fact he may have been drinking. A check was then carried out, and it appeared that traces of alchohol were present. If I drink, and then fly an aircraft, or drive a car, I am aware,that if caught, I will be punished. Remember the old 'responsibility for one's actions'??
Pilots everyday turn up for work, following the code of zero tolerance with alcohol. I am sure some turn up with higher levels within the bloodsteam, and take the chance. As always the preverbial s*** will hit the fan when caught out. Thats life.
Not having been there, this individual obviously showed signs that brought attention to the fact he may have been drinking. A check was then carried out, and it appeared that traces of alchohol were present. If I drink, and then fly an aircraft, or drive a car, I am aware,that if caught, I will be punished. Remember the old 'responsibility for one's actions'??Pilots everyday turn up for work, following the code of zero tolerance with alcohol. I am sure some turn up with higher levels within the bloodsteam, and take the chance. As always the preverbial s*** will hit the fan when caught out. Thats life.
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Originally Posted by chuks
How fascinating... A troll who proudly outs himself! ...........Of course the title of the thread was a bit of a give-away.
Cue lots of those who fell for it posting "I knew it!"
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I am with AFM, above. I replied to the stuff I thought worth replying to. Alcohol abuse used to be one of my very favourite pastimes, you see.
What I thought of the fellow who put up the original thread didn't come into that. To start with "idiotically low" did sort of look like bait, yes... That doesn't mean I need to snap at that, does it?
What I thought of the fellow who put up the original thread didn't come into that. To start with "idiotically low" did sort of look like bait, yes... That doesn't mean I need to snap at that, does it?
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I know that this thread is filled with "tee totallers" which I find highly unlikely, I have never met a tee total pilot ever,
Consider a general enzyme catalyzed reaction:
E +S -----> ES------->P
the rate of an enzyme catalyzed reaction is dependent only on the enzyme [alcohol dehydrogenase]concentration NOT on the substrate [ethanol--I hope
]
this is because most of of the substrate is bound in a rate limiting ES complex and there for only enzyme concentration determines the decomposition rate therefor the reaction is ZERO order in Substrate and first order in enzyme;
Zero order mean that the rate is independent of concentration and first order mean that if you double the Enzyme concentration you'll double the rate:
Since the amount of this enzyme made by the liver is dependent on genetics it is true that individuals may have slightly quicker decomposition because they produce more enzyme but the how fast you process a certain amount of alcohol does not depend on the amount of alcohol consumed only time; this myth arises from confusion about the above fact..
PA
E +S -----> ES------->P
the rate of an enzyme catalyzed reaction is dependent only on the enzyme [alcohol dehydrogenase]concentration NOT on the substrate [ethanol--I hope
]this is because most of of the substrate is bound in a rate limiting ES complex and there for only enzyme concentration determines the decomposition rate therefor the reaction is ZERO order in Substrate and first order in enzyme;
Zero order mean that the rate is independent of concentration and first order mean that if you double the Enzyme concentration you'll double the rate:
Since the amount of this enzyme made by the liver is dependent on genetics it is true that individuals may have slightly quicker decomposition because they produce more enzyme but the how fast you process a certain amount of alcohol does not depend on the amount of alcohol consumed only time; this myth arises from confusion about the above fact..
PA
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Here is a blood alcohol calculator in excel - click the link and if you have Excel on your machine, it should open. Otherwise right-click the link, and save as:
bac.xls
It is pretty useful for all crew (and SLF) if you're on a trip because even if you are a little dis-orientated from time zone changes, it'll give you a good calculation of bac without having to rely on judgment. Remember that the graph is % blood alcohol, which is not the UK ** mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood.
Playing with the calculator, I can see how the ".. hours bottle to throttle" fits the reality of a 0.02% alcohol limit. For a 70kg person (since weight makes a difference):
Couple of beers = 8 hours
Bottle of wine = 12 hours
2 bottles of wine = 24 hours
For a 105kg person (since weight makes a difference):
Bottle of wine = 8 hours
2 bottles of wine = 16 hours
crate of beer @ 3/hr over 8 hours = 24 hours and probably violently ill
bac.xls
It is pretty useful for all crew (and SLF) if you're on a trip because even if you are a little dis-orientated from time zone changes, it'll give you a good calculation of bac without having to rely on judgment. Remember that the graph is % blood alcohol, which is not the UK ** mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood.
Playing with the calculator, I can see how the ".. hours bottle to throttle" fits the reality of a 0.02% alcohol limit. For a 70kg person (since weight makes a difference):
Couple of beers = 8 hours
Bottle of wine = 12 hours
2 bottles of wine = 24 hours
For a 105kg person (since weight makes a difference):
Bottle of wine = 8 hours
2 bottles of wine = 16 hours
crate of beer @ 3/hr over 8 hours = 24 hours and probably violently ill
Last edited by OverRun; 26th Mar 2009 at 21:19. Reason: Added heavy gross weight option
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The self righteous ****e on here indicates that not many are actually in the business.
Crews drink on nightstops..fact. Some kick the arse out of it some dont.He did , and is punished end of discussion.
Stop the preaching bolox.
Id rather have had a pint too many (and be about 60mg) than try and avoid errors induced by a 100am report followed by a 15 hrs ulr flight followed by an MEl ridden aircraft approach to minimums , barely current, but cost effective.I know which one screws me up the most.
Not to appreciate that distinction indicates that most on here are opinionated spotters or evangalistic industry geeks.
Crews drink on nightstops..fact. Some kick the arse out of it some dont.He did , and is punished end of discussion.
Stop the preaching bolox.
Id rather have had a pint too many (and be about 60mg) than try and avoid errors induced by a 100am report followed by a 15 hrs ulr flight followed by an MEl ridden aircraft approach to minimums , barely current, but cost effective.I know which one screws me up the most.
Not to appreciate that distinction indicates that most on here are opinionated spotters or evangalistic industry geeks.
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Pilots who never drink alcohol worry me. Flying is often a stressing occupation. After a flight the stress needs to be dissipated somehow. Some of the most stressful pilots to fly with are those who really never touch a drop.
We have to be reasonable in our intake of alcohol. Moderation in all things!
An effective alternative for stress removal, transcendental meditation, may attract even more adverse comment from the zealots on this thread.
We have to be reasonable in our intake of alcohol. Moderation in all things!
An effective alternative for stress removal, transcendental meditation, may attract even more adverse comment from the zealots on this thread.
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Alcohol does improve some abilities
Michale Birbeck wrote
Larger quantities impair judgment and gross motor controls, but for small quantities i.e. a glass of wine or beer - you will be a more precise operator of any equipment requiring delicate manipulation. However, I guess this doesn't include most aircraft control functions...
On the same theme, caffeine is also a banned drug in many sports. It reduces reaction time at the expense of precision. Caffeine is banned in sports like fencing because of the advantage it gives. However caffeine doesn't seem to be useful for aircraft control - and may even be harmful.
Drinking has never made anyone do anything better
In fact alcohol is a banned drug in a number of sports because it improves performance. The effect is on fine muscle control and is of benefit in sports like rifle shooting and archery.Larger quantities impair judgment and gross motor controls, but for small quantities i.e. a glass of wine or beer - you will be a more precise operator of any equipment requiring delicate manipulation. However, I guess this doesn't include most aircraft control functions...
On the same theme, caffeine is also a banned drug in many sports. It reduces reaction time at the expense of precision. Caffeine is banned in sports like fencing because of the advantage it gives. However caffeine doesn't seem to be useful for aircraft control - and may even be harmful.
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Pilots who never drink alcohol worry me. Flying is often a stressing occupation. After a flight the stress needs to be dissipated somehow. Some of the most stressful pilots to fly with are those who really never touch a drop.
Your advice is most likely a sound one, next time I fly 8 legs on a single day, I´ll help myself to a pint between every leg and I´m sure I will be grinning (aka stressfree) at the end of the day!
And don´t tell me one pint a leg is not moderate.
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Nahatma Kota wrote:
Remember the Canadian snooker player Bill Werbeniuk who was alleged to get tax relief on his lager purchases, necessary to settle a benign tremor which affected his playing?
In fact alcohol is a banned drug in a number of sports because it improves performance. The effect is on fine muscle control and is of benefit in sports like rifle shooting and archery.
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Pilots who never drink alcohol worry me. Flying is often a stressing occupation. After a flight the stress needs to be dissipated somehow. Some of the most stressful pilots to fly with are those who really never touch a drop.
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How much is too much ?
Michael Birbeck wrote
Actually, and I speak with some authority here as a former QA tester and medical subject for breath screening devices (retd.), you'd be surprised.
In the units I am familiar with - % blood alcohol - The figures are typically, 0.05% for a basic infringement and 0.08% for a serious infringement.
For most people, 0.05% seems 'O.K.' and you think you are still able to drive, while with 0.08% you know you are definitely not safe to drive.
I guess here, but perhaps 2-3 pints will get you to 0.05% BAC. A lot depends on your body mass, fat composition, strength of beer, and time to ingest.
Studies have shown that for BAC of 0.05% you are as likely to have an accident as if you have drunk nothing at all. More surprising a BAC somewhere between 0.00% and 0.05% has less probability of an accident than driving tee-total. After 0.05% it all goes pear shaped.
Now these figures are based on accidents using motor vehicles, and probably measure motor skills and reflexes. They do not address cogitative abilities for higher functions - route planning etc.
Whether you can extrapolate motor vehicle BAC to aircraft control, flight planning, decision making is totally another matter.
Question is how much alcohol is just enough before it all goes pear shaped . Very little.
In the units I am familiar with - % blood alcohol - The figures are typically, 0.05% for a basic infringement and 0.08% for a serious infringement.
For most people, 0.05% seems 'O.K.' and you think you are still able to drive, while with 0.08% you know you are definitely not safe to drive.
I guess here, but perhaps 2-3 pints will get you to 0.05% BAC. A lot depends on your body mass, fat composition, strength of beer, and time to ingest.
Studies have shown that for BAC of 0.05% you are as likely to have an accident as if you have drunk nothing at all. More surprising a BAC somewhere between 0.00% and 0.05% has less probability of an accident than driving tee-total. After 0.05% it all goes pear shaped.
Now these figures are based on accidents using motor vehicles, and probably measure motor skills and reflexes. They do not address cogitative abilities for higher functions - route planning etc.
Whether you can extrapolate motor vehicle BAC to aircraft control, flight planning, decision making is totally another matter.
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I am always amazed at the self righteous claptrap that is often spouted on this forum! Mostly it would seem by those who have no real reason to be on here apart from some perverted form of voyeurism that enables them to feel they have some part in aviation.
How many accidents have been blamed on alcohol? How many accidents / incidents have had alcohol cited as a contributary factor?
The truth of the matter is that the levels of alcohol now allowed in pilots is not really based on any sound scientific facts or a history of it being a problem, unlike in car drivers.
The likelyhood of having a small amount of alcohol in your bloodstream having any effect on the safe outcome of flight is very questionable. The fact that there is no requirement for the total concentration required whilst driving and the almost 100% use of automatics means that any input is only required intermittently. This together with the fact that there is at least one other crewmember on the flight deck makes the likelyhood of an incident almost negligible. Judgement may possibly be not quite as sharp as the individual is capable of, but how often have we all operated when tired, stressed just fed up, when we know that our judgement and reactions are not at peak?
I do not condone drinking and flying, however I am often appalled to see that a fellow aviator has been sent to jail for what is often a small misjudgement in the amount of time it takes his/her system to metabolise the previous days consumption. It is this prurient attitude that ends up with a pilot being convicted of having what is considerably less that that allowed in drivers in UK, being sent to jail. Would a bus or lorry driver convicted of drink driving be sent to jail? I think probably not, unless he was involved in an accident with death or severe injuries.
Have a heart
How many accidents have been blamed on alcohol? How many accidents / incidents have had alcohol cited as a contributary factor?
The truth of the matter is that the levels of alcohol now allowed in pilots is not really based on any sound scientific facts or a history of it being a problem, unlike in car drivers.
The likelyhood of having a small amount of alcohol in your bloodstream having any effect on the safe outcome of flight is very questionable. The fact that there is no requirement for the total concentration required whilst driving and the almost 100% use of automatics means that any input is only required intermittently. This together with the fact that there is at least one other crewmember on the flight deck makes the likelyhood of an incident almost negligible. Judgement may possibly be not quite as sharp as the individual is capable of, but how often have we all operated when tired, stressed just fed up, when we know that our judgement and reactions are not at peak?
I do not condone drinking and flying, however I am often appalled to see that a fellow aviator has been sent to jail for what is often a small misjudgement in the amount of time it takes his/her system to metabolise the previous days consumption. It is this prurient attitude that ends up with a pilot being convicted of having what is considerably less that that allowed in drivers in UK, being sent to jail. Would a bus or lorry driver convicted of drink driving be sent to jail? I think probably not, unless he was involved in an accident with death or severe injuries.
Have a heart