UA pilot falls foul of idiotically low UK alcohol law
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Listen your a dippy bird arent you really Lizzy, you get a ticket in a car and jail for being over the limit on a plane, did it ever occur to you that you dont carry 400+ passengers at 37,000ft in a pressurised tin can when your in a car?, where lets face it if something goes wrong you chances of survival are slim, but should something go wrong I would want to make sure the pilot knew what he was doing and NOT over the limit, you should not drink and drive a car full stop and you should not drink and fly a plane end of! its dangerous and stupid, that pilot should have been sentenced to LIFE for en-dangering the lives of all those passengers and crew, were not talking a 4 seater family estate car are we! Think before you open your mouth.
As for get real england, lol well at least our nation is clever enough to realise drinking and flying is not a good mix!!! same with drinking and driving!
As for get real england, lol well at least our nation is clever enough to realise drinking and flying is not a good mix!!! same with drinking and driving!
"Now, let's look at airline scheduling.Backside of the clock, disregard for WOCL cycles and fatigue induced scheduling that studies have shown, using scientifically developed data on sleep cycles, regualry produce levels of fatigue in pilots EQUAL to a blood alcohol level of .24%!"
SLF only commenting but fairly well-informed about the behavioural aspects of alcohol consumption.
Interesting post about the performance-depleting impact of some (legal) duty-cycles. If these have such a negative effect on performance, what happens when you add ANY alcohol to the bloodstream an individual thereby affected?
To me this is an observation that reinforces the need for aircrew to treat alcohol with even more caution than the legal minima.
SLF only commenting but fairly well-informed about the behavioural aspects of alcohol consumption.
Interesting post about the performance-depleting impact of some (legal) duty-cycles. If these have such a negative effect on performance, what happens when you add ANY alcohol to the bloodstream an individual thereby affected?
To me this is an observation that reinforces the need for aircrew to treat alcohol with even more caution than the legal minima.
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BAC measurement units
Dear Frequent SLF.
I am not using the percentage wrong, I am using the units that are used in the US and am sorry I did not include those in my original post...
1 percent BAC by volume 1/100 (%) g/mL = 1 cg/mL 9.43 mg/g, 217.4 mmol/L United States
This differs from the limits that are used in the UK..
1 basis point BAC by volume 1/10,000 (‱) g/mL = 100 μg/mL 94.3 ppm, 2.17 mmol/L Britain
And yes, I have flown approaches in the past so fatigued that I when I got off the jet, I bet I couldn't walk a straight line...So, the study I cited in my original post were algorithms cited via a multi year US Air Force study that studied pilots under various levels of fatigue and colated those by testing their actions on a set of variables while simutaneosly testing individuals with various levels of alcoholic intoxication and codifying the data...That is my simple minds explanation of the study
And yes, most can stand and walk in the US with a .24 BAC level...Folks have been drink driving at .38!
But, let's not take that high of a level. My point (obviously lost) is that we are prohibited from flying with a BAC of .02% here in the US. But, there are most certain accepted scheduling practices that routinely raise levels of fatigue in aircrew to an equivalency greater that .02BAC... Yet, no one cares about that, yet...
Regards,
Slats.
I am not using the percentage wrong, I am using the units that are used in the US and am sorry I did not include those in my original post...
1 percent BAC by volume 1/100 (%) g/mL = 1 cg/mL 9.43 mg/g, 217.4 mmol/L United States
This differs from the limits that are used in the UK..
1 basis point BAC by volume 1/10,000 (‱) g/mL = 100 μg/mL 94.3 ppm, 2.17 mmol/L Britain
And yes, I have flown approaches in the past so fatigued that I when I got off the jet, I bet I couldn't walk a straight line...So, the study I cited in my original post were algorithms cited via a multi year US Air Force study that studied pilots under various levels of fatigue and colated those by testing their actions on a set of variables while simutaneosly testing individuals with various levels of alcoholic intoxication and codifying the data...That is my simple minds explanation of the study
And yes, most can stand and walk in the US with a .24 BAC level...Folks have been drink driving at .38!But, let's not take that high of a level. My point (obviously lost) is that we are prohibited from flying with a BAC of .02% here in the US. But, there are most certain accepted scheduling practices that routinely raise levels of fatigue in aircrew to an equivalency greater that .02BAC... Yet, no one cares about that, yet...
Regards,
Slats.
Last edited by SLATS_EXTEND; 29th Mar 2009 at 06:11.
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@Old Lizzy! - I'm sorry but he's very near the driving limit...so that would be to say he's probably just stopped drinking...Being on a UK stopover from the USA induces alot of Jet Lag...I would only just be able to fly back...let alone have a booze party...then fly a plane
Folks,
Take very great care if you are operating to and from or within Australia after April 1/09.
That's when the new Drug and Alcohol rules start, and the alcohol limit is 0.02 (compared to 0.05 for driving) and it applies to anyone airside or anyone with a "safety related" job landside.
The list of drugs tested for can be seen on the CASA web site, many cold medicines are going to be a problem, as will analgesics that contain any codein, which can linger for many days in the system, after the last dose.
There will be random breathalyser/drug teams around the country from now on, I would expect the major airports to be the first targeted.
See also the requirement for operators to have a company program, and the screening requirements.
Tootle pip!!
Take very great care if you are operating to and from or within Australia after April 1/09.
That's when the new Drug and Alcohol rules start, and the alcohol limit is 0.02 (compared to 0.05 for driving) and it applies to anyone airside or anyone with a "safety related" job landside.
The list of drugs tested for can be seen on the CASA web site, many cold medicines are going to be a problem, as will analgesics that contain any codein, which can linger for many days in the system, after the last dose.
There will be random breathalyser/drug teams around the country from now on, I would expect the major airports to be the first targeted.
See also the requirement for operators to have a company program, and the screening requirements.
Tootle pip!!
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20mg in 100ml is the same as the .02% THE US has. In the US it means you can't complete your flight and have to deal with the company because FAA has a .04% limit which is their standard for alcohol abuse. .04% is the legal limit.
\
All pilots have to very careful in the following months because what was ok for the last decade or more isn't ok now. We all loved those hot tub parties with the FA's so hope this doesn't diminish this wonderful career one step lower.
I loved those parties. What is flying going to be without them. Borrrrring.
Unfortunately in the UK and Australia now at .02% you have violated the law and could go to jail. You could drink for another hour and still drive though. That will probably change soon too.
\
All pilots have to very careful in the following months because what was ok for the last decade or more isn't ok now. We all loved those hot tub parties with the FA's so hope this doesn't diminish this wonderful career one step lower.
I loved those parties. What is flying going to be without them. Borrrrring.
Unfortunately in the UK and Australia now at .02% you have violated the law and could go to jail. You could drink for another hour and still drive though. That will probably change soon too.
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And the envelope please....
"Unfortunately in the UK and Australia now at .02% you have violated the law and could go to jail. You could drink for another hour and still drive though."
QED!!
QED!!
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Well, the mods removed my last post, so this one will probably have a small audience too.
At the end of the day, having lived through the "era" ( I digress, but show up for my DC9 course, meet TC in departures "you have bought your allowance haven't you ?" get on aircraft to fly to AMS - plastic bags stuffed full of booze. "OK Chaps, briefing in my room, bring your bags". Bags now less full. . . phew
"OK, see you in the lobby in 4hrs"
First Sim session a dream, how easy. . . next one. . . . jeez I am much too sober. ) I think that, and several hundred subsequent "night-stops" ,give me some qualification to speak.
First and foremost, one's judgement is undoubtedly impaired by alcohol.
However, and it is a BIG however, fatigue, being stupid, having an argument with your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend (or any number between 1 & 3 of the preceding) getting old, having a headcold & working for a company with a draconian attitude to "sick -days", working for a company that fails to respect the principle of /or just generally suffering from, industrial/disciplinary problems etc etc etc.
At the end of the day, there are a thousand reasons for exercising "less than optimum" judgement. . . . it's just that this one is easier than all the others for the jerks that regulate our lives to deal with. (or rather to deal with us because of
)
At the end of the day, having lived through the "era" ( I digress, but show up for my DC9 course, meet TC in departures "you have bought your allowance haven't you ?" get on aircraft to fly to AMS - plastic bags stuffed full of booze. "OK Chaps, briefing in my room, bring your bags". Bags now less full. . . phew
"OK, see you in the lobby in 4hrs" First Sim session a dream, how easy. . . next one. . . . jeez I am much too sober. ) I think that, and several hundred subsequent "night-stops" ,give me some qualification to speak.
First and foremost, one's judgement is undoubtedly impaired by alcohol.
However, and it is a BIG however, fatigue, being stupid, having an argument with your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend (or any number between 1 & 3 of the preceding) getting old, having a headcold & working for a company with a draconian attitude to "sick -days", working for a company that fails to respect the principle of /or just generally suffering from, industrial/disciplinary problems etc etc etc.
At the end of the day, there are a thousand reasons for exercising "less than optimum" judgement. . . . it's just that this one is easier than all the others for the jerks that regulate our lives to deal with. (or rather to deal with us because of
)
Last edited by captplaystation; 30th Mar 2009 at 22:41.
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It probably doesn't matter what level they use, .02, .04 or .08% because airline accidents almost never are affected by these B/A standards. It might look good in the newspaper that countries are improving air safety but statistics show that drugs and alcohol are not the problem. Elizabeth Dole started this whole thing when she was in charge but after millions of dollars worth of testing and some cancelled flights because nobody could find a medical facility open on a Sunday to do the random test, nothing was accomplished.
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I looked at the NTSB report on that crash along with 4 pages of discussion here and it just looks like CFIT. What makes you think it was alcohol related? They had a pressurization problem at 10,000 feet so returned, went around in VMC conditions then crashed on the second attempt at night 3 miles short.
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I attended a lecture a couple of weeks ago by the man that actually did the work on the drink-fly limit (Professor Charles Billings). He said that at the limit for drink-driving in the UK, pilots flying real planes made mistakes that, unsupervised, would likely have led to catastrophic failures and probable crashes. That work was done in the 1960s, and the limits still stand today for very good reason.
For MagnusP - just for information, alcohol has no affinity for binding to haemoglobin, so isn't a competitor for oxygen even at altitude.
For MagnusP - just for information, alcohol has no affinity for binding to haemoglobin, so isn't a competitor for oxygen even at altitude.
Last edited by Sparelung; 1st Apr 2009 at 12:58. Reason: spelling
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Sparelung: Odd that; it was in a study by a Dr Peter Foster of Liverpool university on Working at Altitude, commissioned when the UK was setting up the UK Infrared Telescope in Hawaii, and where I worked many times over my years with the research council.
Thanks for the correction; I must go do some reading.
Thanks for the correction; I must go do some reading.
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Old Lizzy, who are you to spare Mr Jefferson Inman's blushes?
Oh dear, I blurted the name which is in every tabloid newspaper (with a fine close-up photograph in the Mail) and is clearly known to the police, the airline, BAA, his employer, and probably his wife.
Are you seeing no evil today?
Oh dear, I blurted the name which is in every tabloid newspaper (with a fine close-up photograph in the Mail) and is clearly known to the police, the airline, BAA, his employer, and probably his wife.
Are you seeing no evil today?
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On the other hand, is it really that much of a scarifice to avoid having any alcohol to drink 8 hours before a flight? 8 hours bottle to throttle is a fair rule of thumb, if your going to have anything more that a galss of wine or two then leave it longer.
Truthfully, if you can't have a night or two without needing a drink you probably have a problem that needs dealing with - I know this might sound extreme but, if your job depends on it why would you risk getting caught?
Poor guy, but you have to ask - was this a one off? If so, why did he chance it? And, if not then perhaps it was the right result.
I know this sounds pretty unsympathetic but the rules were brought in for a reason.
Truthfully, if you can't have a night or two without needing a drink you probably have a problem that needs dealing with - I know this might sound extreme but, if your job depends on it why would you risk getting caught?
Poor guy, but you have to ask - was this a one off? If so, why did he chance it? And, if not then perhaps it was the right result.
I know this sounds pretty unsympathetic but the rules were brought in for a reason.
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Absolutely right Munnyspinner!
This thread has built up momentum on the premise that the poor little UA pilot had made an unfortunate and unintended mistake. Really?
I doubt that, as anyone involved in aviation and the sporadic hours we work is very conscious (or should be) of when rest is vital for example and when alcohol must cease.
I admire the moves that UA management made to 'rescue' their pilot and hope they are successful in drying him out, but until that is confirmed I will always suspect that someone who plays with the regulations in this way is a liability to aviation.
This thread has built up momentum on the premise that the poor little UA pilot had made an unfortunate and unintended mistake. Really?
I doubt that, as anyone involved in aviation and the sporadic hours we work is very conscious (or should be) of when rest is vital for example and when alcohol must cease.
I admire the moves that UA management made to 'rescue' their pilot and hope they are successful in drying him out, but until that is confirmed I will always suspect that someone who plays with the regulations in this way is a liability to aviation.