UA pilot falls foul of idiotically low UK alcohol law

[sussex2]

'Is it? Most UK beers are 5%abv or lower, and I certainly do remember getting 5%abv or higher in the USA.

Now, if he was on the stuff they make here, I would go along with your statement.' - unquote..

I believe that beer in the U.S. is probably stronger than in the U.K. as a general rule.
'Proper' UK beer is around the 4 percent mark (session real ale somewhat less); whilst most U.S. beers are 5 percent - generally due to the laxed laws, not published on the bottle.
A lot of people make the mistake of thinking 'Lite' beer means lighter in alcohol, which is not the case. In fact is simply means lighter in colour - nothing more.

[NigelOnDraft]

After 17-19 hours awake (equating to between 10:30 p.m. and 1 a.m. when many of us go to bed), the participant's performance corresponded to 0.05 percent blood alcohol content; half the legal limit. This is a fairly normal day for most military members, especially those flying large aircraft on long cargo-carrying or air-bridge missions. Their response speeds during the tests were 50 percent slower overall, and accuracy measures were significantly poorer than at the 0.05 percent BAC level of alcohol. At longer levels without sleep, their performance reached levels equivalent to the maximum alcohol dose given to subjects of 0.10 percent (Williamson, Feyer, 2000).

Feature - "Oh Man, Am I Beat!"
No comment other than that the laws re fatigue regularly see crews flying hardly able to stay awake, and as above, scientifically proven to degrade performance in the same way, and to a greater degree...

NoD

[Final 3 Greens]

The thread title seems wrong to me.

How about "Criminal avoids jail sentence"?

[ProM]

Not entirely true Sussex:

Budweiser = 5.0% abv
Bud Light = 4.2% abv
MGD = 5.0% abv
Miller Lite = 4.2% abv
Coors Banquet = 5.0% abv
Coors Light = 4.2% abv
Corona Extra = 4.6% abv
Corona Light = 4.5% abv
Heineken = 5.4% abv
Hein. Light = 3.5% abv
Labatt Blue = 5.0% abv
Labatt Blue Light = 4.2% abv

You will note that the Lite versions are lower ABV than the 'full' versions

There are differences in beer but certainly not enough to justify a difference between 20mg per 100ml and 60mg per 100ml. That is a red herring

As has been stated, he was either out late on the razz or had a snifter for breakfast. Neither is good

[blimey]

......it was hammered into us "8 hours bottle to throttle",

12 hours bottle to throttle......

Easiest way is to not have any alcohol within 24 hours of flying.....

and pilots shouldn't drink within 48 hrs of duty time, period.......

Any advance on 48 hours..............

Apparently one:

You don't have to drink just because you are a pilot!

10 mls = 1 unit. 1 unit (+) metabolised per hour. Do the math(s).

[hellsbrink]

I though "Lite" was somehow "lighter" on calories due to some process? After all, as an example, "Bud Light" is the same colour as regular "Bud".

(Here we go, let's talk about something sensible like BEER!)

[Michael Birbeck]

How many hours?

Let's do the arithmetic. Arrive in London on Friday evening. Interrupted sleep and party at old friend's house on Saturday afternoon (rostered to fly again on Monday morning at 07:30 hrs so should be fine). Have a good party but overdo it, say drink 6 pints strong lager (6 x 3 units) and a glass of wine (1 x 2 units). Total time to metabolise alcohol 20 hrs so shouldn't think about going near an aircraft for at least twenty hours. After twenty hours, say late Sunday afternoon should I jump into my PA28 and go do a bit of fun flying before bed prior to work on Monday. No, because I will be hung over, tired, alcohol distrubs sleep patterns, and still nowhere near fit to fly. Will be sober on Monday morning but may still be fatigued and nowhere near my prime. Stay with the 48 hr rule. If you drink enough to break that rule then you'll either die of alcohol poisoning before you break the law or kill someone or wake up and realise that you have an alcohol problem and voluntary disbar and (hopefully) debar yourself

[blimey]

It's been said elsewhere before but:

Stay with the 48 hr rule.

And most of us would spend most of our lives not drinking. Personally, I like a beer or a glass of wine to unwind at the end of the day; it helps me to relax, to sleep, and to face another busy day. I know my alcohol/fitness to fly limits, like most pros do. I don't need any extra restrictions.

PS I think the 20mg flying limit is spot on; driving should be 50mg like most of Europe.

[ChristiaanJ]

As NOTSURE already mentioned, a lot of foods and non-alcoholic drinks contain small amounts of alcohol (think apple juice). So do things like medicine , or mouthwash. And as if that were not enough, your own body will do a good job of fermenting even some totally alcohol-free food and drinks.

As far a I can find, we're talking about an order of magnitude less alcohol than is contained in alcoholic drinks (beer, wine, etc.) but that would still translate to a residual blood alcohol level of something like 1 to 2 mg per 100 ml (a tenth or less of the lowest legal limit of 20 mg), which makes a nonsense of the so-called 'zero-zero' limit.

I tried to refresh my memory by looking up 'residual' or 'natural' blood alcohol content, but didn't find any significant figures.

Does anybody else have some data?

CJ

[AnthonyGA]

It worries me when I see any pilot trying to defend any amount of alcohol in the blood while flying. I'm surprised that anyone who takes flying seriously and makes it a part of his life would drink alcohol at all, but it's especially worrisome if he tries to justify having the drug on board while flying. I think a pilot needs to wait until his blood alcohol is zero before going anywhere near a flight deck. (And, before anyone says anything, I'd apply exactly the same rule to operating any other type of vehicle—a racing-car driver or bus driver or motorcycle rider who gets behind the wheel with any trace of alcohol in the blood is also worrisome.)

[Ancient Mariner]

Plenty "urban myths" re blood/alcohol circulating here.
Have a read: http://www.icap.org/portals/0/downlo...h/report11.pdf
Per

[Two's in]

UA pilot falls foul of idiotically low UK alcohol law

And the US Federal Aviation Regulations (0.04 = 40mg/100ml)

FAR Sec. 91.17

Alcohol or drugs.

(a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft--

(1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;
(2) While under the influence of alcohol;
(3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety; or
[(4) While having an alcohol concentration of 0.04 or greater in a blood or breath specimen. Alcohol concentration means grams of alcohol per deciliter of blood or grams of alcohol per 210 liters of breath.]

...so he was 3 for 4 anyway under US law.

[ChristiaanJ]

Originally Posted by AnthonyGA

I think a pilot needs to wait until his blood alcohol is zero...

If so, he will have to wait until the cows come home!

Define "zero", please.

My point was simply, that by the time we are talking something like 1 or 2 mg, we're talking persistent natural residual blood alcohol.
By that time, other factors, such as fatigue, worries, too much coffee, you name it.... will have taken over as performance-impairing causes.

CJ

[blimey]

AnthonyGA

I notice from your previous how worrisome it is for you that all professional pilots haven't foresworn alcohol. You also have difficulty with nicotine. Well worry on, my friend: pilots drink and smoke, and some have even been seen to take caffeine. Best you stay on the ground.

[One Outsider]

Should the Bishop of Rome ever fall off his balcony while waving to the adoring masses, his replacement should be easy to find.

There never was a shortage of Holy Men.

[Oilhead]

I believe this to be a silly wind up.....I fly for UA and yes, they have a very effective intervention program. Noooooooot of course that I have first hand experience!

[hellsbrink]

After reading Anthony's post, may I be REALLY pedantic and point out that alcohol is NOT a drug, by definition?

A poison, yes, but not a "drug"

[Rananim]

I believe French pilots still drink wine with their food on the flight deck.However,it must be a good claret..none of the cheap stuff.

[hellsbrink]

I'd be careful saying that, Rananim.

Last time I saw someone say that, not exactly too long ago, a purple dragon descended and kinda put things straight.


Very, erm, "polite yet forceful" in the words used was the term I thought at the time....

[flash8]

Of course, the fuddy duddy magistrates (with whom common sense is a rare trait indeed and legal training even rarer) were probably awed by having such a magnificent case in front of them and quickly dispatched it up the ladder with shaking hands.

Going by the result, I for one am glad common sense prevailed this time and the guy was given the chance to rehabilitate himself and continue his career. So we do have Judges that still have common sense. Surprisingly enough.