UA pilot falls foul of idiotically low UK alcohol law
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Perth Western Australia
Age: 57
Posts: 808
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I was learning to fly many moons ago it was hammered into us "8 hours bottle to throttle", regardless of the legal limit (and including).
Recently I have been working in the mines and some large companys now breathalize every shift, with a 0% level being mandatory., if not big trouble.
It appears from a liability point of veiw they can not be certain that your judgement is not impaired, even with the slightest amount of booze.
Now we all know thats cr#$ but thats the way it is.
Recently I have been working in the mines and some large companys now breathalize every shift, with a 0% level being mandatory., if not big trouble.
It appears from a liability point of veiw they can not be certain that your judgement is not impaired, even with the slightest amount of booze.
Now we all know thats cr#$ but thats the way it is.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well accoridng to this link, the US limit is 0.4 so he would have been over that at 0.6 as well. And as you can see, the people at that link should know 
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/1...ohol-klas.html
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/1...ohol-klas.html
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: London
Age: 54
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Many people can still appear and act as "drunk" when under the set amount to drive a motor vehicle.
It all depends on body size and mass.
Fact is.
60mg, 20 under the UK driving law.
Is poor. Very poor.
Clearly the skill set to fly a 747, is of a much greater scale then a car.
Get real.
He was very unprofessional and it's a shame, someone of such personal responsibility would allow him self into this situration. And infact, risk the saftey of hes fellow crew members and passengers.
Well spotted ground staff.
It all depends on body size and mass.
Fact is.
60mg, 20 under the UK driving law.
Is poor. Very poor.
Clearly the skill set to fly a 747, is of a much greater scale then a car.
Get real.
He was very unprofessional and it's a shame, someone of such personal responsibility would allow him self into this situration. And infact, risk the saftey of hes fellow crew members and passengers.
Well spotted ground staff.
IIRC the Flight Safety Foundation did some studies on alcohol and flying and how it affects the performance of pilots in the cockpit.
Depending on the situation they said the reduced performance levels could linger on for up to 48 hrs after the drinking had stopped.
The age old rule of 12 hrs between the bottle and throttles is really a minimum to go by and perhaps it should be revised upwards (perhaps 24 hrs).
The UK does not need to be told by an American citizen what is right or wrong with their rules... It's very arrogant on his part. The UK and many other European countries have similar alcohol limits and it is up to foreign crews regardless of aircraft registry to respect those limits or else face the music.
I am pro setting limits like in the UK which puts hard numbers down in the books as law to be followed. I'm sure the USA as similar rules/regs but most lilkely are a bit less restrictive then the UK's numbers.
For the record I'm not against a company and its CP trying to defend its pilot under certain conditions especially if they can enter him in an alcoholic recovery program.
Depending on the situation they said the reduced performance levels could linger on for up to 48 hrs after the drinking had stopped.
The age old rule of 12 hrs between the bottle and throttles is really a minimum to go by and perhaps it should be revised upwards (perhaps 24 hrs).
The UK does not need to be told by an American citizen what is right or wrong with their rules... It's very arrogant on his part. The UK and many other European countries have similar alcohol limits and it is up to foreign crews regardless of aircraft registry to respect those limits or else face the music.
I am pro setting limits like in the UK which puts hard numbers down in the books as law to be followed. I'm sure the USA as similar rules/regs but most lilkely are a bit less restrictive then the UK's numbers.
For the record I'm not against a company and its CP trying to defend its pilot under certain conditions especially if they can enter him in an alcoholic recovery program.
Last edited by Jet Jockey A4; 24th Mar 2009 at 17:49.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Thailand
Posts: 942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In some states, India being one, the limit is ZERO, nada, Zip, nothing.
Pilots seem able to function and fly quite adequately whilst adhering to such limits. You don't have to drink just because you are a pilot!
The limit in UK is far too high.
Pilots seem able to function and fly quite adequately whilst adhering to such limits. You don't have to drink just because you are a pilot!
The limit in UK is far too high.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
However, quite ok to be awake for an obscene period of time and land a 747 with 400 people - all the work done in that field has been ignored !
Remember the guy who went to jail for crashing a car and trailer onto a railway early in the morning (having fallen asleep at the wheel) because they proved he hadn't been to sleep that night......
With all the liabilities stalking the average pilot and the police beating the rescue crews to an accident I will nver allow my kids to get into this profession.... maybe into banking which carries no responsibilites
Remember the guy who went to jail for crashing a car and trailer onto a railway early in the morning (having fallen asleep at the wheel) because they proved he hadn't been to sleep that night......
With all the liabilities stalking the average pilot and the police beating the rescue crews to an accident I will nver allow my kids to get into this profession.... maybe into banking which carries no responsibilites
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Blackpool
Age: 36
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So he's easily legal to drive a car, but 3 times the flying limit??.
In a aircraft you could be responsible for hundreds.
A aircraft is a helluva lot more complicated then a car.
What a stupid person you really are.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Where ever the roster tells me.
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Old Lizzy!
You and people like you that cannot accept rules that are clear and well known have no place anywhere near an aircraft (or in fact Oxygen).
So you think that it is ok to be over the limit to fly, because you don't agree with the limit in place. Do you also not respect the drink drive limit?
Well please let me know where and when you fly(or drive) and i will avoid the area, as it is STUPID FOOLS like you that kill people. Trust me i know as i had a very good friend killed by some w****r that was drunk.
You and people like you that cannot accept rules that are clear and well known have no place anywhere near an aircraft (or in fact Oxygen).
So you think that it is ok to be over the limit to fly, because you don't agree with the limit in place. Do you also not respect the drink drive limit?
Well please let me know where and when you fly(or drive) and i will avoid the area, as it is STUPID FOOLS like you that kill people. Trust me i know as i had a very good friend killed by some w****r that was drunk.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Michael
Personally I'd rather fly with an experienced ex USAF major than some of the ninnies that grace this forum at times.
Experienced ex USAF majors are better at flying under the influence? Or are they more experienced in flying under the influence?
Taking a stand against flying and drinking makes me a worse pilot?
What?
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: away
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What Is In Fact Zero?!?
OK guys, lets move the discussion one step further for all our (pilots!) benefit. Those of us who were in the industry 20 years ago, ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, know very well how it was then - before the hype that eroded our profession, by anyone who desires so, was introduced.
I am not advocating drinking before flying - any amount - and diligently adhere to 12 hours rule, which is sensible and responsible.
I am also very happy that concerned pilot had the management able to look beyond the hype - and see big picture. Very rare situation these days.
I fly in a part of the world where limit is ZERO ZERO. But, how reliable are breathalyzer tests?
Say, before going for a flight, you use a mouthwash - and if You were not careful enough to choose one WITHOUT alcohol, that breathalyzer is going to read something -0,00000001 - technically speaking, you are over the limit - big trouble. Many other products, or food (especially fermenting food, in combination with fruits) will give you a "failed" result.
As far as I am concerned, I would opt not to blow the tube - take my blood sample if you want facts! But the problem is - You refuse the breathalyzer, they take it as over the limit.
And You are done. Licence, job, GONE. As here, we have NO Pilot Union to help you, management - no-one to stand up & say a good word.
Do You call that a sensible approach?
And also, coupled with the crizis + corporate greed - ever increasing duty time, a lot of minimum rest periods - let's face it - our lives have changed dramatically, and I think it is ridiculous that I have to wait, say, 5 days to be able to take my ONE beer, or a glass of wine, along with my dinner
!!!
Bottom-line: Some - minimum - limit has to stay, say, 0.2 promille - (as we had it here also, only few years ago) to make it workable. Management thinks, under public pressure, they will make it a "safer" environment if they impose more restrictions
I am not advocating drinking before flying - any amount - and diligently adhere to 12 hours rule, which is sensible and responsible.
I am also very happy that concerned pilot had the management able to look beyond the hype - and see big picture. Very rare situation these days.
I fly in a part of the world where limit is ZERO ZERO. But, how reliable are breathalyzer tests?
Say, before going for a flight, you use a mouthwash - and if You were not careful enough to choose one WITHOUT alcohol, that breathalyzer is going to read something -0,00000001 - technically speaking, you are over the limit - big trouble. Many other products, or food (especially fermenting food, in combination with fruits) will give you a "failed" result.
As far as I am concerned, I would opt not to blow the tube - take my blood sample if you want facts! But the problem is - You refuse the breathalyzer, they take it as over the limit.
And You are done. Licence, job, GONE. As here, we have NO Pilot Union to help you, management - no-one to stand up & say a good word.
Do You call that a sensible approach?
And also, coupled with the crizis + corporate greed - ever increasing duty time, a lot of minimum rest periods - let's face it - our lives have changed dramatically, and I think it is ridiculous that I have to wait, say, 5 days to be able to take my ONE beer, or a glass of wine, along with my dinner
!!!Bottom-line: Some - minimum - limit has to stay, say, 0.2 promille - (as we had it here also, only few years ago) to make it workable. Management thinks, under public pressure, they will make it a "safer" environment if they impose more restrictions
Last edited by NOTSURE; 24th Mar 2009 at 14:53. Reason: ad some important point
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hadlow
Age: 60
Posts: 597
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He was over the limit, so he broke the law in the UK. Ignorance of the law is no excuse in the UK, I would expect that would also be the case in most (if not all) countries outside the UK too,
Legal limit for driving a bus is 80mg/100ml breath. That said, If I'm driving a motor vehicle I don't drink alcohol at all. 0 mg/100ml is the safest way. I remember my first driving lesson when the instructor said to start the car and just sit there holding the steering wheel. He then asked me what I had in my hands, to which I replied "the steering wheel". "No!" he said, "You're now holding a lethal weapon that can kill you and others!" When I thought about it, I realised he was right.
Legal limit for driving a bus is 80mg/100ml breath. That said, If I'm driving a motor vehicle I don't drink alcohol at all. 0 mg/100ml is the safest way. I remember my first driving lesson when the instructor said to start the car and just sit there holding the steering wheel. He then asked me what I had in my hands, to which I replied "the steering wheel". "No!" he said, "You're now holding a lethal weapon that can kill you and others!" When I thought about it, I realised he was right.
The legal limit is 0.2 promille because 0.0 is impossible.
The human body makes its own alcohol (by digesting food)
Brown bread/fruits/sugar/water is all that is needed.
Also, being a diabetic for example will help you over the limit.
The human body makes its own alcohol (by digesting food)
Brown bread/fruits/sugar/water is all that is needed.
Also, being a diabetic for example will help you over the limit.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: guildford
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I cannot believe the original post (other than the factual content which I knew about) and wonder if it's a jerk on the wind up. If so, it's success; I am actually quite wound up.
I am no big drinker, but if I drink a pint (60mg), I am aware of it, and that says it all.
In my humble opinion, there is no excuse for abusing the huge trust vested in you from both your employers and the public. If you can't respond properly to that trust then go push a pen, not a throttle.
It is also not only the pax on his flight at risk; analyse the risk profile of commercial flying and the risks on the ground, especially in densely trafficed airports, are equal to if not greater than those in the air. (don't get me wound up on taxi-ing speeds either!!)
The bottom line is if you judgement/reaction is impaired by even 0.05% then you should not do it, as, by definition, you are yourself increasing the risks.
Our industry spend millions tinkicking incidents and events. The same millions are spent on trying to control everything we can control, and offering proceedures and checklists to obviate risk; so is it not reasonable to assume self control should be a given?
Yes I admit by some of the standards on Pprune, there is moisture behind my lugholes, and I'm sure a few old hands might respond less than favourably to my opinion. If so, fair enough, but I believe in what I have written and those are the standards I abide by. No alcohol 48 hrs beforehand for me.
As for this:
Would the families of any potential victims been prepared to experiment with the same redemption and tolerance?
Old Lizzy a village idiot? I think not. Idiot of global proportions; yes. ****head on the wind up; without question.
Rant over.
I am no big drinker, but if I drink a pint (60mg), I am aware of it, and that says it all.
In my humble opinion, there is no excuse for abusing the huge trust vested in you from both your employers and the public. If you can't respond properly to that trust then go push a pen, not a throttle.
It is also not only the pax on his flight at risk; analyse the risk profile of commercial flying and the risks on the ground, especially in densely trafficed airports, are equal to if not greater than those in the air. (don't get me wound up on taxi-ing speeds either!!)
The bottom line is if you judgement/reaction is impaired by even 0.05% then you should not do it, as, by definition, you are yourself increasing the risks.
Our industry spend millions tinkicking incidents and events. The same millions are spent on trying to control everything we can control, and offering proceedures and checklists to obviate risk; so is it not reasonable to assume self control should be a given?
Yes I admit by some of the standards on Pprune, there is moisture behind my lugholes, and I'm sure a few old hands might respond less than favourably to my opinion. If so, fair enough, but I believe in what I have written and those are the standards I abide by. No alcohol 48 hrs beforehand for me.
As for this:
Redemption and tolerance are good qualities - you should try experimenting with them sometime.
Old Lizzy a village idiot? I think not. Idiot of global proportions; yes. ****head on the wind up; without question.
Rant over.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The Land of Beer and Chocolate
Age: 56
Posts: 798
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If flying an aircraft whilst under the UK DUI limits is acceptable to Lizzy, I would love to hear his views on the London Underground ZERO limit for anyone, not only LU personnel, working on their "property". So even a humble cleaner would be fired instantly with the slightest amount of alcohol on his breath, same as a train driver. (I know 0.0 is impossible, as some diabetics create alcohol in their bodies but most people don't, but if there is no medical reason for 0.1mg in the system then you are out)
But 60mg at 9am? If he had a few the night before (likely, going by the look of things) then he had quite a few for it still to be noticeable, or he had a swifty at some point before going near the aircraft. I don't know what is actually worse, being on the razz the night before or having a quick beer before work. The second one would definitely indicate an alcohol problem, because nobody should realistically need a drink at, what, 6-7-8am allowing for time to get through everything and get to the gate?
And, no, I have NEVER worked or driven under the influence, not even the morning after. That was drilled into me by someone who had the "joys" of cutting people out of cars after they drove drunk, or thought they could, as well as the joys of having 240vac go up your arm when you are sober. Any alcohol does increase the risks, no matter what your profession is.
But 60mg at 9am? If he had a few the night before (likely, going by the look of things) then he had quite a few for it still to be noticeable, or he had a swifty at some point before going near the aircraft. I don't know what is actually worse, being on the razz the night before or having a quick beer before work. The second one would definitely indicate an alcohol problem, because nobody should realistically need a drink at, what, 6-7-8am allowing for time to get through everything and get to the gate?
And, no, I have NEVER worked or driven under the influence, not even the morning after. That was drilled into me by someone who had the "joys" of cutting people out of cars after they drove drunk, or thought they could, as well as the joys of having 240vac go up your arm when you are sober. Any alcohol does increase the risks, no matter what your profession is.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The Land of Beer and Chocolate
Age: 56
Posts: 798
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
May be the poor chap just fell victim to the fact that english beer is a bit stronger than the american equivalent
Now, if he was on the stuff they make here, I would go along with your statement.
Guest
Posts: n/a
C is not a sharp thing. Nor is drinking.
ManaAdaSystem
Chill man, chill. Drinking has never made anyone do anything better and pilots shouldn't drink within 48 hrs of duty time, period. This chap has made a mistake (and is now paying for it). I think a sober USAF major is likely to be a good pilot and one that we might learn from (I certainly can). I believe that UA have shown their belief in this guy and I am sure that he will recover himself and pay them back handsomely with years more good, safe flying. Far better to help a good man off the ground and back into the air than kick him when he's down.
Chill man, chill. Drinking has never made anyone do anything better and pilots shouldn't drink within 48 hrs of duty time, period. This chap has made a mistake (and is now paying for it). I think a sober USAF major is likely to be a good pilot and one that we might learn from (I certainly can). I believe that UA have shown their belief in this guy and I am sure that he will recover himself and pay them back handsomely with years more good, safe flying. Far better to help a good man off the ground and back into the air than kick him when he's down.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Catalunya
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'In Italy the limit is 50 mg per 100 ml, proposal tabled to reduce it to 20 mg.
Exactly the same of a pilot.'
Ditto in Spain were they have random, frequent, and strict breathylyser checks.
I have been stopped on two occasions. You get out of your car, into the back of the analysis van, get your result, and if ok, your'e away.
You don't have to make any mistake, crash or come to the attention of the police to qualify. I've even seen a bus driver have to do this test.
Drinking within 12 hours and flying an aircraft
This guy was lucky, very lucky, and I tend to wonder if the same light sentence would have been handed out to a UK registered pilot!
Exactly the same of a pilot.'
Ditto in Spain were they have random, frequent, and strict breathylyser checks.
I have been stopped on two occasions. You get out of your car, into the back of the analysis van, get your result, and if ok, your'e away.
You don't have to make any mistake, crash or come to the attention of the police to qualify. I've even seen a bus driver have to do this test.
Drinking within 12 hours and flying an aircraft
This guy was lucky, very lucky, and I tend to wonder if the same light sentence would have been handed out to a UK registered pilot!