Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol
Stercus Accidit
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Latest reports mention 9 death. Seems that both pilots are also killed and still in the cockpit...
50 People injured of which 25 seriously.
Eyewitnesses report the plane stalling several times before coming down.
Lack of fuel seem to be a serious possibility.
50 People injured of which 25 seriously.
Eyewitnesses report the plane stalling several times before coming down.
Lack of fuel seem to be a serious possibility.
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Why do laymen come to a professional pilot forum and take over completely with no idea?
On the initial reports of no deaths from the Turkish airline. Some cultures are accepting of lying to spare others suffering. In Japan for instance, there is a tendency to withhold an incurable diagnosis to spare the patient and family. Is there a similar cultural feature in Turkey, where until it is known who has died and who has lived, it is thought more compassionate to mislead all to think that everyone has survived. Those who are lucky enough to have loved ones among the survivors would have been spared needless worry. Those who were given false hope, were eventually going to be miserable anyway, why make them miserable sooner than necessary. I don't accept the reasoning myself, but wonder if any here has insight into the Turkish culture.
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@Ray D'Vecta
Perhaps your are just unlucky! Visual or Radar it does not seem to matter, you only get it if you are painted the right shade of blue 
Are you sure about that? I have been based at Schiphol for over 10 years and have never ever had one of those!!!
They might offer you a switch from 18R to 18C, but it is NEVER a visual switch, and it NEVER happens less than 20nm from touchdown. They ask if you would like 18C instead of 18R, and if you say yes, they vector you for the 18C ILS.
They might offer you a switch from 18R to 18C, but it is NEVER a visual switch, and it NEVER happens less than 20nm from touchdown. They ask if you would like 18C instead of 18R, and if you say yes, they vector you for the 18C ILS.
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Here is a link to the Turkish newspaper in English.
Nine dead after Turkish Airlines plane crash-lands in Amsterdam
Nine dead after Turkish Airlines plane crash-lands in Amsterdam
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Read a lot of absolute nonsense here, as usual... MS Flight sim pilots please refrain from contributing.
My very limited observations tell me the following:
1) Weather conditions and Airfield point to an ILS RWY 18R approach.
2) Plane hit the ground where its normal height should be around 350'
3) Aircraft position/condition from the pictures SEEM to point to a low-speed impact, high pitch-up condition. This COULD be a result of a wing-stall at low altitude
4) It SEEMS that no Urgency/Emergency call was made, which makes a fuel starvation scenario as suggested unlikely.
5) 3 persons in the cockpit can mean the following: a) Training flight new First Officer b)Training flight new Captain (upgrade or on-type) c) Line-check
d) Cabin-crew on the jumpseat. options a,b,c leads to more experience on the flight-deck than usual, option d might point to a possible distracting factor.
Let us focus on the facts and act like professional officers please, we are also being watched by the media on this site and can do without wannabe's pretending to be flightcrew.
Despegue
My very limited observations tell me the following:
1) Weather conditions and Airfield point to an ILS RWY 18R approach.
2) Plane hit the ground where its normal height should be around 350'
3) Aircraft position/condition from the pictures SEEM to point to a low-speed impact, high pitch-up condition. This COULD be a result of a wing-stall at low altitude
4) It SEEMS that no Urgency/Emergency call was made, which makes a fuel starvation scenario as suggested unlikely.
5) 3 persons in the cockpit can mean the following: a) Training flight new First Officer b)Training flight new Captain (upgrade or on-type) c) Line-check
d) Cabin-crew on the jumpseat. options a,b,c leads to more experience on the flight-deck than usual, option d might point to a possible distracting factor.
Let us focus on the facts and act like professional officers please, we are also being watched by the media on this site and can do without wannabe's pretending to be flightcrew.
Despegue
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also have this data, but cannot guarantee the heading is correct.
1650 feet
heading 264 degrees??????
185 knots
5km ne of field.
is this turning finals or duff data???
Geoff
1650 feet
heading 264 degrees??????
185 knots
5km ne of field.
is this turning finals or duff data???
Geoff
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EHAM ATC recording- post accident
Some EHAM ATC recording available here - post accident...
LiveLeak.com - Turkish Airlines Crash in Amsterdam
LiveLeak.com - Turkish Airlines Crash in Amsterdam
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turbulence or pilot induced oscillation?
Looking at the TAF, METAR, and form 415 it is unlikely that the flight encountered much turbulence, certainly not enough to cause a serious accident. To passengers turbulence and pilot-induced-oscillations would feel pretty much the same. It's also possible that they felt a stall buffet and thought it was turbulence as they certainly feel similar.
If this was a stall-spin accident I would expect very few survivors as it would have likely dropped a wing so it looks like the aircraft was still under positive control although with a high sink-rate.
Given the conditions and the lack of a declared emergency it seems likely that the loss of power (if there was one) would have been in cloud in full landing configuration with the autopilot tracking the ILS. The aircraft would have lost some hydraulic power and would have turned into quite a handful, especially if it was out of trim when autopilot was lost. They would have popped out of cloud and had a very short time to arrest their rate of descent and set up for a forced landing.
That's not a situation I ever want to be in!
If this was a stall-spin accident I would expect very few survivors as it would have likely dropped a wing so it looks like the aircraft was still under positive control although with a high sink-rate.
Given the conditions and the lack of a declared emergency it seems likely that the loss of power (if there was one) would have been in cloud in full landing configuration with the autopilot tracking the ILS. The aircraft would have lost some hydraulic power and would have turned into quite a handful, especially if it was out of trim when autopilot was lost. They would have popped out of cloud and had a very short time to arrest their rate of descent and set up for a forced landing.
That's not a situation I ever want to be in!
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Been listening to BBC Radio 5 ever since this happened... rated A1 in level headedness!
Just reporting the facts as they seem to be, and then the eyewitness I've reported who seems to be a very sensible young man, trying to say clearly what he saw...
he even said to start with it hadn't occurred to him that the engines were quiet, because of all the other aircraft in the vicinity and he took it for granted it was making the normal noise... It struck him a short while later the one nearest that he watched (apparently) rear up and then drop wasn't itself making (much) noise.
He was a cyclist on his way to work, alomg that A9 I believe, so he'd be used to watching them...
Just reporting the facts as they seem to be, and then the eyewitness I've reported who seems to be a very sensible young man, trying to say clearly what he saw...
he even said to start with it hadn't occurred to him that the engines were quiet, because of all the other aircraft in the vicinity and he took it for granted it was making the normal noise... It struck him a short while later the one nearest that he watched (apparently) rear up and then drop wasn't itself making (much) noise.
He was a cyclist on his way to work, alomg that A9 I believe, so he'd be used to watching them...
Stercus Accidit
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Looking at the TAF, METAR, and form 415 it is unlikely that the flight encountered much turbulence, certainly not enough to cause a serious accident.
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the data comes from a group of people who monitor and record modes-s data the data comes from a user of a system in Holland and is genuine data as received.
please note we had this data as it happened.
please note we had this data as it happened.
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Turkish Culture
Africangenesis;
Unfortunately you are right. This is typical to Mediterranean / East European / Middle Eastern culture.
Say for example (God forbid) a relative of yours have died on the street, in a traffic accident. Police takes him/her to the hospital and calls you, saying a relative of yours has a health problem (Injured, etc...) although they positively know that he/she has died at the very instant that the accident has happened.
Unfortunate, but thruth...
Unfortunately you are right. This is typical to Mediterranean / East European / Middle Eastern culture.
Say for example (God forbid) a relative of yours have died on the street, in a traffic accident. Police takes him/her to the hospital and calls you, saying a relative of yours has a health problem (Injured, etc...) although they positively know that he/she has died at the very instant that the accident has happened.
Unfortunate, but thruth...
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I have been watching the news since midday (10.00am GMT).What seems to be a miracle was that there was no fire. A few commentators have suggested that had the 737 burned, things would have been completely different. Also, the newly ploughed field in which it came down was probably soggy which may have reduced the impact .
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Passengers reported that the whole flight was turbulence-free until seconds before the crash the plane started to shake vehemently.
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Regarding Engines
From photos I noticed the right engine is in the field meters ahead of the aircraft, with the right wing laying flat on the ground. From photos it appears the left wing is off the ground, but I can't tell if it's being lifted by the landing gear or the left engine.
I'm just wondering where the left engine is.
I'm just wondering where the left engine is.
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It is actually pretty hard to stall a 737. Was given stall recovery scenarios in my last sim, and by-golly do you have to try pretty hard to stall the aircraft. The control forces req are strong to bleed off the speed (and to maintain the G/S) and the nose becomes extremely heavy, plus the stick shaker and the buffet get your attention. Granted it was only the sim, but there's no doubt about the signals long before the stall.
The easiest time to stall is when you go-around, since the pitch-up is pronounced - doubly more so if you press TOGA twice, and you spend most of the time pushing the control column forward to maintain speed. If you get this wrong (i.e. no forward control input) then you can easily stall the aircraft. In addition, if you only have one auto-pilot in, then on pressing TOGA, it will disconnect and you're on your own. It can catch you out, as in the case of the Thomson in Bournemouth.
AMS controllers are pretty much on the money too, and despite some reasonably fast approaches in their traffic pattern, I've always felt pretty comfortable. No visual approaches, or circling to land - even on a good day!
But, if the A/T is disconnected, and in ARM, then 5 kts below the MCP speed, A/T will re-engage anyway, so unlikely to stall that way. Of course, complete A/T disconnect will give you no protection.
The easiest time to stall is when you go-around, since the pitch-up is pronounced - doubly more so if you press TOGA twice, and you spend most of the time pushing the control column forward to maintain speed. If you get this wrong (i.e. no forward control input) then you can easily stall the aircraft. In addition, if you only have one auto-pilot in, then on pressing TOGA, it will disconnect and you're on your own. It can catch you out, as in the case of the Thomson in Bournemouth.
AMS controllers are pretty much on the money too, and despite some reasonably fast approaches in their traffic pattern, I've always felt pretty comfortable. No visual approaches, or circling to land - even on a good day!
But, if the A/T is disconnected, and in ARM, then 5 kts below the MCP speed, A/T will re-engage anyway, so unlikely to stall that way. Of course, complete A/T disconnect will give you no protection.
Last edited by no sponsor; 25th Feb 2009 at 19:42.