Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo
Roselawn only became an a/c problem due to the flight crew not flying the a/c as per the AOM. In my book, that's a pilot problem.
Aeroplane was flown in accordance with applicable FCOM and AFM. Prior to upset no limitation was exceeded and only procedural mistake was assisting pilot retracting the flaps without being commanded by the flying pilot.
Person Of Interest
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How did "Roselawn" get into this???...
It all boils down to the same thing...Automation made the crew complacent...period...
Things got out of hand because they (the crew) were not on top of the situation...
If pilots are only going to be "system operators"...then what do we need ATP's for?
It all boils down to the same thing...Automation made the crew complacent...period...
Things got out of hand because they (the crew) were not on top of the situation...
If pilots are only going to be "system operators"...then what do we need ATP's for?
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Pilot instinct
There is an instinct within all of us who fly (or did so) on a daily basis. Although AP’s have sort of gotten “in the way”, it’s still there. As a former instructor (not just light aircraft, but in part 121 operations, upgrading FO’s to their first type rating/ATP) I have seen a few things. None of these things I saw have ever included a pilot pitching up to get out of a stall.. Also, there were 2 pilots. Within these 6 long seconds described earlier, neither pilot corrected (or said anything to correct) the other whoever was flying... My simple conclusion is that they both were acting as they thought appropriate for whatever circumstance they encountered. Maybe in response to something we will never know about. And I am sorry, but the NTSB is not all-knowing either. The FDR, CVR and NTSB put together still may never lead to reaching the right conclusion and in the end, compromises are made that satisfy everyone at the balance of future safety.
Originally Posted by DownIn3Green
How did "Roselawn" get into this???...
Originally Posted by P51guy
I hope you are kidding>
Originally Posted by Excru
The FDR, CVR and NTSB put together still may never lead to reaching the right conclusion and in the end, compromises are made that satisfy everyone at the balance of future safety.
I'm speculating here as to the cause of the Colgan accident, however it's certain that being awoken from microsleep by stick shaker does not lead to immediate top notch perception or cognition.
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AP story today:
Buffalo crash pilots discussed sickness, low pay
By JOAN LOWY, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON – The co-pilot in February's airline crash in upstate New York complained to the flight's captain that she felt ill and would have skipped the flight but didn't want to pay for a hotel room, according to a new cockpit voice recorder transcript released Monday.
The extended transcript, released by the National Transportation Safety Board, shows pilot Marvin Renslow commiserated with First Officer Rebecca Shaw, but didn't suggest she pull out of the flight.
Federal Aviation Administration regulations say pilots should not fly if they're feeling sick. The captain is responsible for overseeing their crew.
The two conversed while Continental Connection Flight 3407 sat on the ground waiting for clearance to takeoff from Newark Liberty International Airport.
Shaw told Renslow that if she had felt as sick the day before when she was at home near Seattle, she wouldn't have commuted to Newark to make the flight.
"I'm ready to be in the hotel room," Shaw told Renslow after one of several sniffle sounds noted on the transcript. "This is one of those times that if I felt like this when I was at home there's no way I would have come all the way out here. But now that I'm out here."
"You might as well," Renslow responded.
"I mean if I call in sick now, I've got to put myself in a hotel room until feel better," said Shaw, who also complained about her low salary. "We'll see how ... it feels flying. If the pressure's just too much I, you know, I could always call in tomorrow. At least I'm in a hotel on the company's buck, but we'll see. I'm pretty tough."
Renslow suggested to Shaw that she "kill it with, you know, a bunch of OJ or a bunch of vitamin C."
Shaw also complained about poor treatment by Colgan Air Inc. of Manassas, Va., which operated the flight for Continental Airlines. She said she earned only $15,800 the previous year and the airline was refusing to give her $200 in back pay she felt she was owed.
Flight 3407 crashed on Feb. 12 as the twin-engine turboprop began preparations for landing in Buffalo, killing all 49 people aboard and a man in a house below. Testimony at an NTSB hearing in May showed Renslow and Shaw made a series of critical errors leading up to the crash.
Shaw commuted the night before the crash from Seattle to Newark, N.J., to make the flight to Buffalo. Renslow, who was in the middle of a series of flights, lived near Tampa, Fla., but commuted to Newark, where he was based.
It's not clear where either pilot slept the night before the crash or how long they slept, but it appeared from testimony that they may have tried to nap in a crew lounge at the airport rather than pay for a hotel room. A fatigue expert testified that the pilots' judgment was likely impaired by fatigue.
Revelations about the pilots' behavior, low pay and commuting practices sparked a backlash against pilot pay and working conditions in the regional airline industry.
By JOAN LOWY, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON – The co-pilot in February's airline crash in upstate New York complained to the flight's captain that she felt ill and would have skipped the flight but didn't want to pay for a hotel room, according to a new cockpit voice recorder transcript released Monday.
The extended transcript, released by the National Transportation Safety Board, shows pilot Marvin Renslow commiserated with First Officer Rebecca Shaw, but didn't suggest she pull out of the flight.
Federal Aviation Administration regulations say pilots should not fly if they're feeling sick. The captain is responsible for overseeing their crew.
The two conversed while Continental Connection Flight 3407 sat on the ground waiting for clearance to takeoff from Newark Liberty International Airport.
Shaw told Renslow that if she had felt as sick the day before when she was at home near Seattle, she wouldn't have commuted to Newark to make the flight.
"I'm ready to be in the hotel room," Shaw told Renslow after one of several sniffle sounds noted on the transcript. "This is one of those times that if I felt like this when I was at home there's no way I would have come all the way out here. But now that I'm out here."
"You might as well," Renslow responded.
"I mean if I call in sick now, I've got to put myself in a hotel room until feel better," said Shaw, who also complained about her low salary. "We'll see how ... it feels flying. If the pressure's just too much I, you know, I could always call in tomorrow. At least I'm in a hotel on the company's buck, but we'll see. I'm pretty tough."
Renslow suggested to Shaw that she "kill it with, you know, a bunch of OJ or a bunch of vitamin C."
Shaw also complained about poor treatment by Colgan Air Inc. of Manassas, Va., which operated the flight for Continental Airlines. She said she earned only $15,800 the previous year and the airline was refusing to give her $200 in back pay she felt she was owed.
Flight 3407 crashed on Feb. 12 as the twin-engine turboprop began preparations for landing in Buffalo, killing all 49 people aboard and a man in a house below. Testimony at an NTSB hearing in May showed Renslow and Shaw made a series of critical errors leading up to the crash.
Shaw commuted the night before the crash from Seattle to Newark, N.J., to make the flight to Buffalo. Renslow, who was in the middle of a series of flights, lived near Tampa, Fla., but commuted to Newark, where he was based.
It's not clear where either pilot slept the night before the crash or how long they slept, but it appeared from testimony that they may have tried to nap in a crew lounge at the airport rather than pay for a hotel room. A fatigue expert testified that the pilots' judgment was likely impaired by fatigue.
Revelations about the pilots' behavior, low pay and commuting practices sparked a backlash against pilot pay and working conditions in the regional airline industry.
I thought that the low pay was just a gripe. But now the report about about being sick and unable to afford a stand down enroute is a deeper concern.
I'll let the congress look into the balances here since its too big a job for the FAA and industry to work out in our lifetime.
I know that in my past when I got sick enroute at least my employer paid for the hotel room until I was able to return home or other insurrance kicked in.
I'll let the congress look into the balances here since its too big a job for the FAA and industry to work out in our lifetime.
I know that in my past when I got sick enroute at least my employer paid for the hotel room until I was able to return home or other insurrance kicked in.
Well, I'm b*ggered if I would deadhead from Seattle to Newark just to fly a flight to Buffalo.
I was based in JFK for three years and I simply could not believe how far US flight crew were prepared to commute and then sometimes climb straight on board and operate across the pond.
I was based in JFK for three years and I simply could not believe how far US flight crew were prepared to commute and then sometimes climb straight on board and operate across the pond.
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Compensation in the air transport industry
One must understand that the air transport activity of any airline only exists to provide cash flow to head office executives, their consultants and their corporate lawyers who all get paid before anyone else. The rest of the organization only exists to provide a excuse to scam the assets of their shareholders and employees. God bless America!
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Yikes
An FAA friend once told me the problem was that airline CEOs were now beancounters, not ex-pilots.
These last few postings give me a sliver of insight in what that implies.
These last few postings give me a sliver of insight in what that implies.
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ArthurBorges
That began in the early eighties here in the 'West'. Legacy wise.
A highly recruited CEO who had just signed on with the firm was about to meet the Board. After pleasantries, he asked "What is it your Company actually does?"
That began in the early eighties here in the 'West'. Legacy wise.
A highly recruited CEO who had just signed on with the firm was about to meet the Board. After pleasantries, he asked "What is it your Company actually does?"
KMD
What a poorly thought out remark! If you are that cynical about the airlines, how is it any different in any other profit-making business? Why would it be any different in any other economic model? I spent years in the USAF; a cynic could say the same thing there, except promotions, not profit, were the incentive. This is just over the top cynical. ANY organization that operated as you suggest would soon be out of business, not exactly a long-term business model.
The fact that the two pilots were poorly trained, lacked any degree of professionalism is the real source of the accident. In fact, I think lack of professionalism, lack of skills that they brought to the cockpit was the problem and the company had nothing to do with that, other than not being able to properly vet their backgrounds.
GF
One must understand that the air transport activity of any airline only exists to provide cash flow to head office executives, their consultants and their corporate lawyers who all get paid before anyone else. The rest of the organization only exists to provide a excuse to scam the assets of their shareholders and employees. God bless America!
The fact that the two pilots were poorly trained, lacked any degree of professionalism is the real source of the accident. In fact, I think lack of professionalism, lack of skills that they brought to the cockpit was the problem and the company had nothing to do with that, other than not being able to properly vet their backgrounds.
GF
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Galaxy Flyer
I think Will Fraser answered your concerns. Corporations spend money on investment bank advice, corporate law opinions and compensation consultants to provide a smoke screen for their personal interests. Flight crews are cannon fodder. Thats why you cultivate corporate law firms so that the crews are always to blame and head office doesn't have to accept any responsibility for their hiring practices (but still get to collect their bonuses). Notice I didn't say anything about passengers. There will always be marks willing to spent any amount of money to attend to sick relatives, corporations who believe the business school mantra of face-to-face meetings on the other coast and the all-important government business trips. This is free money that goes to head office, the expenses get covered by dumping the people in the middle who actually keep the juggled balls in the air.
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There was a tale of a CEO of a rather large airline who thought it would be dandy to buy a chain of Hotels and a large rental car company, while running the airline concurrently. How'ed that turn out ? Anybody? Oh, and pitching employee ownership in the middle of trying to figure out what to pay to each employee. Genius.
'Do what ya know',......Famous Amos
Here with 'Colgan', an F/O making Burger King mgmnt. dough, who then has to spend half on travel, lodging, and adequate 'rest' ?? A Pilot who had failed Five? checks, and whose reaction to pusher is to Pull??
Ruinous competition? nah, greed and irresponsibility.
'Do what ya know',......Famous Amos
Here with 'Colgan', an F/O making Burger King mgmnt. dough, who then has to spend half on travel, lodging, and adequate 'rest' ?? A Pilot who had failed Five? checks, and whose reaction to pusher is to Pull??
Ruinous competition? nah, greed and irresponsibility.
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That's why we have bankruptcy laws. How may times has this happened: the airline executives declare bankruptcy, they and the bankruptcy trustees and the corporate lawyers collect their swag, the employees get dumped and the shareholders lose their investment. Next month, there's a new airline with the same executives!. Why? Because they have experience. And the merry-go-round will do another revolution.
Will and KMD
FAR 91.3 puts the ultimate responsibility on the pilots, your cynical blaming the company for the pilot's lack of ability and professionalism is over the top. The pilots always had the ability, yes, the responsibility to say, NO! Colgan and the commuter airline business will ultimately pay with bankruptcy after passengers say NO to flying with poorly run companies. Responsibility is paying the consequences for one's failings--the pilots paid the ultimate price. No one anywhere but in that cockpit said "crash this airplane".
BTW, I have been in management and labor, been a civilian supervisor, a military commander and an ALPA representative, so please don't tag me either way.
GF
PS, if they were earning Micky D's pay, why were they in the front end of an airliner and not home in bed having managed the local McDonalds?
FAR 91.3 puts the ultimate responsibility on the pilots, your cynical blaming the company for the pilot's lack of ability and professionalism is over the top. The pilots always had the ability, yes, the responsibility to say, NO! Colgan and the commuter airline business will ultimately pay with bankruptcy after passengers say NO to flying with poorly run companies. Responsibility is paying the consequences for one's failings--the pilots paid the ultimate price. No one anywhere but in that cockpit said "crash this airplane".
BTW, I have been in management and labor, been a civilian supervisor, a military commander and an ALPA representative, so please don't tag me either way.
GF
PS, if they were earning Micky D's pay, why were they in the front end of an airliner and not home in bed having managed the local McDonalds?
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GF
I stipulate to your experience. In light of it, how do you explain Colgan, precisely ? The Company is at the mercy of poor pilots with limited experience ? Poor things. They gave them the trip, 'vetted' (or not) the experience, and tested (more than once) their competency. They are unaware of 'one gets what one pays for?' The pilot is responsible for the flying, the line is responsible for the pilots. Do you see ?
best regards, Will
I stipulate to your experience. In light of it, how do you explain Colgan, precisely ? The Company is at the mercy of poor pilots with limited experience ? Poor things. They gave them the trip, 'vetted' (or not) the experience, and tested (more than once) their competency. They are unaware of 'one gets what one pays for?' The pilot is responsible for the flying, the line is responsible for the pilots. Do you see ?
best regards, Will
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Will,
Let's not forget that Continental, as all the majors do, will pull the feeder flying from Colgan if it gets too expensive, and give it to the next outfit lower down the food chain. Still waiting to find out where the race to the bottom will stop in this here bidness...
Let's not forget that Continental, as all the majors do, will pull the feeder flying from Colgan if it gets too expensive, and give it to the next outfit lower down the food chain. Still waiting to find out where the race to the bottom will stop in this here bidness...