Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo
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That the FAA sets the basic minimum safety standards is a fact. That there are achievable levels of safety above the basic minimum standard is opinion, but not a particularly controversial one. Take crew duty and rest requirements as an example. Airlines with strongly unionized pilot groups tend to have duty and rest requirements negotiated between the union and management that are more generous to flight crews than the FAA mandated standard. Airlines with weaker union representation or no union representation at all, tend to adopt the FAA minimum standard.
Not so long ago I saw a scientific paper on the effect of false information on learning, which reported the results of an experiment in which subjects who were experts on some subject were given false information about it and then made to take a test. The kicker - the false information was information they knew to be obviously false (say: "appropriate stall recovery in the Q400 involves pulling back on the yoke").
Despite that, though, a statistically significant proportion of them were influenced by the false information. Unfortunately I can't find the study in question, but there are plenty of others in that direction - you can't really ignore anything, fake photos change people's memories, repeating things makes them seem true, denying things doesn't work very well, and perhaps most importantly, fatigue helps you form false memories (although coffee helps).
Despite that, though, a statistically significant proportion of them were influenced by the false information. Unfortunately I can't find the study in question, but there are plenty of others in that direction - you can't really ignore anything, fake photos change people's memories, repeating things makes them seem true, denying things doesn't work very well, and perhaps most importantly, fatigue helps you form false memories (although coffee helps).
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captain smiffy
where do I say that you should pick up a wing with rudder? I certainly didn't teach that. I did say someone showed me that when I was a student pilot. There is a bit of difference between teaching something and having something shown to you as a student.
the rudder can help in many ways though...my ailerons failed once and the rudder got me to the ground ok.
by the way, I met Langweishe's son...william...his advice was never do anything in a turn , except fly the plane...don't fiddle with the radios or anything else. I would add the same thing for level offs, configuration changes and trimming.
Oh, and I am an author too. But what does that have to do with this forum?
the rudder can help in many ways though...my ailerons failed once and the rudder got me to the ground ok.
by the way, I met Langweishe's son...william...his advice was never do anything in a turn , except fly the plane...don't fiddle with the radios or anything else. I would add the same thing for level offs, configuration changes and trimming.
Oh, and I am an author too. But what does that have to do with this forum?
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Hi! A non-pilot here, just trying to learn…
FDR data show that airframe deice was selected between 21:29 and 21:30. There is no comment about deicing on CVR around that time. However at 21:32, the captain states that he just did a “24-h ice protection test”, but he did not say if he left deicing on. The test is part of Colgan cruise checklist. FO confirms the test at 21:32:58 and then again as part of the checklist completion at 21:39:12. No other comments about deicing are made until “I’ve never deiced”. Does this look like a normal procedure? Should the deicing system (including the REF SPEEDS INCR switch) be operated that inconspicuously?
Now, back to lurking…
FDR data show that airframe deice was selected between 21:29 and 21:30. There is no comment about deicing on CVR around that time. However at 21:32, the captain states that he just did a “24-h ice protection test”, but he did not say if he left deicing on. The test is part of Colgan cruise checklist. FO confirms the test at 21:32:58 and then again as part of the checklist completion at 21:39:12. No other comments about deicing are made until “I’ve never deiced”. Does this look like a normal procedure? Should the deicing system (including the REF SPEEDS INCR switch) be operated that inconspicuously?
Now, back to lurking…
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finfly1
if following the FAA min standards made you safe, and colgan claims that they met the FAA requirements...why did the plane crash?
therefore, just maybe, the FAA isn't doing enough for safety. I tried to make that clear using irony on the previous page, but that didn't work.
I hope it is clear now.
if following the FAA min standards made you safe, and colgan claims that they met the FAA requirements...why did the plane crash?
therefore, just maybe, the FAA isn't doing enough for safety. I tried to make that clear using irony on the previous page, but that didn't work.
I hope it is clear now.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Mike waw, we used to test the deice systems on the ground, after start, before departure. Not sure of the Colgan SOPs but it seems a bit daft to test it once you're in icing!
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mike waw
As I understand it the Q400 anti-ice/de-ice system is entirely automatic once engaged and its operation has been checked, subject to continued monitoring. The INCR speeds switch should NEVER be engaged without 1st determining, bugging and then ensuring the associated increased air speeds are flown. This accident is a particularly pointed example of why that last is so important.
As I understand it the Q400 anti-ice/de-ice system is entirely automatic once engaged and its operation has been checked, subject to continued monitoring. The INCR speeds switch should NEVER be engaged without 1st determining, bugging and then ensuring the associated increased air speeds are flown. This accident is a particularly pointed example of why that last is so important.
This was the one I was after - give people false information after real, make them take a test, and they learn the false information. In that light, training really shouldn't say "watch this video...but the information in it doesn't apply to you".
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"FAA approved is not a guarantee of safety."
Is this intended to be opinion or fact?
Is this intended to be opinion or fact?
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does anyone remember, earlier in the thread, that during a sim ride one could get fired for not holding altitude within 100' during stall practice?
I hope some investigating is done in this department.
also, regarding fatigue. one can be so fatigued that one doesn't realize it and therefore couldn't remove himself from a flight. I've seen both pilots fall asleep while in flight of another, unrelated commuter airline flight, many years ago.
I hope some investigating is done in this department.
also, regarding fatigue. one can be so fatigued that one doesn't realize it and therefore couldn't remove himself from a flight. I've seen both pilots fall asleep while in flight of another, unrelated commuter airline flight, many years ago.
Last edited by protectthehornet; 19th May 2009 at 23:24.
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Protectthehornet wrote:
“the rudder can help in many ways though...my ailerons failed once and the rudder got me to the ground ok.”
Your ailerons failed?
Now not only are you a prolific poster, but a true aviation hero? WOW!
Someone cut the cable on your Tomahawk?
Captainsmiffy, MU3001A and finfly….We have a true aviation hero here! Stand aside!
I can only recall I think two aircraft that had multiple hydraulic failures, with partial loss or total loss of most flight controls, one crashed just near Old Saigon (C-5) and the other landed at SFO (PAA B-747.)
Yip, I know it is off the subject, but we have a hero here!
“the rudder can help in many ways though...my ailerons failed once and the rudder got me to the ground ok.”
Your ailerons failed?
Now not only are you a prolific poster, but a true aviation hero? WOW!
Someone cut the cable on your Tomahawk?
Captainsmiffy, MU3001A and finfly….We have a true aviation hero here! Stand aside!
I can only recall I think two aircraft that had multiple hydraulic failures, with partial loss or total loss of most flight controls, one crashed just near Old Saigon (C-5) and the other landed at SFO (PAA B-747.)
Yip, I know it is off the subject, but we have a hero here!
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From the Jamestown Sun, Jamestown, North Dakota
Published May 18 2009
Pilot salaries stun Congress
The investigation into the commuter plane crash in upstate New York that killed 50 people in February has exposed the long hours and low pay of some regional airline pilots. Lawmakers now are wondering if such working conditions are more widespread and pose safety risks.
WASHINGTON (AP) — The investigation into the commuter plane crash in upstate New York that killed 50 people in February has exposed the long hours and low pay of some regional airline pilots. Lawmakers now are wondering if such working conditions are more widespread and pose safety risks.
Members of Congress said they were stunned by the salaries of the pilots of Continental Connection Flight 3407, employees of the smaller commuter airline Colgan Air Inc. The pilots may have tried to snatch sleep in an airport crew lounge, which is against company policy. The first officer lived with her parents near Seattle and was commuting cross country to work in New Jersey.
“All these things raise questions: Are they an aberration or are FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) standards sufficient? Or are the standards not enforced?” said Democratic Sen. Byron Dorgan of North Dakota, chairman of the Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation subcommittee on aviation.
Aviation industry experts said the conditions reflect the broad restructuring of the industry after Sept. 11, 2001, when air travel dropped sharply and major airlines began pairing with regional ones. It took the industry years to recover and led to major airline bankruptcies, mergers and management demands for dramatic wage and benefit concessions.
The role of regional airlines has grown. Once considered industry runts, they are now joined at the hip with the big airlines. People who buy a ticket on a major airline often find themselves on a regional carrier for some part of a domestic trip. Passengers often don’t even realize they’re traveling on two airlines.
Regional airlines account for half of all domestic departures and about one-quarter of the passengers. They are the only scheduled service to about 440 communities.
Witnesses at National Transportation Safety Board hearings this past week said it’s possible that many passengers on Flight 3407 the night of Feb. 12 didn’t know the plane and its flight crew belonged not to Continental, but Colgan Air of Manassas, Va.
The twin-engine turboprop experienced an aerodynamic stall as it neared Buffalo Niagara International Airport before plunging into a house. All 49 people aboard and a man in the house were killed. Testimony and documents indicate the captain, Marvin Renslow, and co-pilot Rebecca Shaw made a series of critical errors.
NTSB investigators calculated Shaw was paid just over $16,000. Colgan officials testified that captains such as Renslow earn about $55,000 a year. The company later said Shaw’s salary was $23,900 and that captains earn about $67,000.
Pilot pay is usually based on the size of the aircraft and a pilot’s experience. But the workload and flight schedules at regional airlines are often more demanding than at a major airline, where the planes are larger and make longer but less frequent trips, said Scott Johns, a former Northwest Airlines pilot and air crash investigator.
“I’m not sure how you fix this pay system discrepancy,” he said.
Roger Cohen, president of the Regional Airline Association, said lower salaries are an industrywide problem. He predicted airlines generally will suffer a shortage of pilots once the economy improves. He denied, however, that safety has been affected.
“Compensation has nothing to do with safety,” Cohen said. “We’re going to defend the quality of our people.”
William Swelbar of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology’s airline data project noted that until the Buffalo crash, major and regional U.S. air carriers hadn’t had a fatal crash in more than two years.
The vice president of the Air Line Pilots Association, Paul Rice, said salaries vary between companies, but major airline captains typically earn about $120,000 to $125,000. He said senior captains who fly internationally can earn about $180,000.
rrr
On the Net:
NTSB investigation: NTSB - Public Hearing: Buffalo, NY
Published May 18 2009
Pilot salaries stun Congress
The investigation into the commuter plane crash in upstate New York that killed 50 people in February has exposed the long hours and low pay of some regional airline pilots. Lawmakers now are wondering if such working conditions are more widespread and pose safety risks.
WASHINGTON (AP) — The investigation into the commuter plane crash in upstate New York that killed 50 people in February has exposed the long hours and low pay of some regional airline pilots. Lawmakers now are wondering if such working conditions are more widespread and pose safety risks.
Members of Congress said they were stunned by the salaries of the pilots of Continental Connection Flight 3407, employees of the smaller commuter airline Colgan Air Inc. The pilots may have tried to snatch sleep in an airport crew lounge, which is against company policy. The first officer lived with her parents near Seattle and was commuting cross country to work in New Jersey.
“All these things raise questions: Are they an aberration or are FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) standards sufficient? Or are the standards not enforced?” said Democratic Sen. Byron Dorgan of North Dakota, chairman of the Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation subcommittee on aviation.
Aviation industry experts said the conditions reflect the broad restructuring of the industry after Sept. 11, 2001, when air travel dropped sharply and major airlines began pairing with regional ones. It took the industry years to recover and led to major airline bankruptcies, mergers and management demands for dramatic wage and benefit concessions.
The role of regional airlines has grown. Once considered industry runts, they are now joined at the hip with the big airlines. People who buy a ticket on a major airline often find themselves on a regional carrier for some part of a domestic trip. Passengers often don’t even realize they’re traveling on two airlines.
Regional airlines account for half of all domestic departures and about one-quarter of the passengers. They are the only scheduled service to about 440 communities.
Witnesses at National Transportation Safety Board hearings this past week said it’s possible that many passengers on Flight 3407 the night of Feb. 12 didn’t know the plane and its flight crew belonged not to Continental, but Colgan Air of Manassas, Va.
The twin-engine turboprop experienced an aerodynamic stall as it neared Buffalo Niagara International Airport before plunging into a house. All 49 people aboard and a man in the house were killed. Testimony and documents indicate the captain, Marvin Renslow, and co-pilot Rebecca Shaw made a series of critical errors.
NTSB investigators calculated Shaw was paid just over $16,000. Colgan officials testified that captains such as Renslow earn about $55,000 a year. The company later said Shaw’s salary was $23,900 and that captains earn about $67,000.
Pilot pay is usually based on the size of the aircraft and a pilot’s experience. But the workload and flight schedules at regional airlines are often more demanding than at a major airline, where the planes are larger and make longer but less frequent trips, said Scott Johns, a former Northwest Airlines pilot and air crash investigator.
“I’m not sure how you fix this pay system discrepancy,” he said.
Roger Cohen, president of the Regional Airline Association, said lower salaries are an industrywide problem. He predicted airlines generally will suffer a shortage of pilots once the economy improves. He denied, however, that safety has been affected.
“Compensation has nothing to do with safety,” Cohen said. “We’re going to defend the quality of our people.”
William Swelbar of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology’s airline data project noted that until the Buffalo crash, major and regional U.S. air carriers hadn’t had a fatal crash in more than two years.
The vice president of the Air Line Pilots Association, Paul Rice, said salaries vary between companies, but major airline captains typically earn about $120,000 to $125,000. He said senior captains who fly internationally can earn about $180,000.
rrr
On the Net:
NTSB investigation: NTSB - Public Hearing: Buffalo, NY
Your ailerons failed?
Now not only are you a prolific poster, but a true aviation hero? WOW!
Someone cut the cable on your Tomahawk?
Captainsmiffy, MU3001A and finfly….We have a true aviation hero here! Stand aside!
I can only recall I think two aircraft that had multiple hydraulic failures, with partial loss or total loss of most flight controls, one crashed just near Old Saigon (C-5) and the other landed at SFO (PAA B-747.)
Yip, I know it is off the subject, but we have a hero here!
Now not only are you a prolific poster, but a true aviation hero? WOW!
Someone cut the cable on your Tomahawk?
Captainsmiffy, MU3001A and finfly….We have a true aviation hero here! Stand aside!
I can only recall I think two aircraft that had multiple hydraulic failures, with partial loss or total loss of most flight controls, one crashed just near Old Saigon (C-5) and the other landed at SFO (PAA B-747.)
Yip, I know it is off the subject, but we have a hero here!
I find your post pathetic.
There are many ways ailerons can get stuck. I don´t know what made you bashing the original poster for sharing his experience.
I had the ailerons of a Pitts stuck during aerobatics, caused by a ballpen somebody lost in the plane. I was able to brake the pen by a lot of force but if it havn´t been a plastic pen I would have been dead.
You have no reason not to believe what protectthehornet was saying.
Do you need that for your Ego ?
Inbalance
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mustangsally, you are indeed the pathetic one. A local chap had the ailerons fail on his Bonanza and got it back on the ground with no further damage. You need to get out more.
Report here 200501905
Report here 200501905
Last edited by Brian Abraham; 20th May 2009 at 03:50. Reason: add link
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for the record, the aileron problem I had was in a piper turbo arrow 3
the chain jumped the sprocket...over downtown san jose...landed straight in with rudder in KSQL. the approach was over uninhabited area...san jose had too many folks under the flight path.
I don't think of it as heroic, just something I learned along time ago. Back in 1930's, a CAA inspector took off in a plane just out of mx. The ailerons were rigged backwards (sort of like the elevator trim being rigged backwards on the convair that crashed...but that's another thread).
After that, the CAA demanded that the rudder be able to handle such a situation.
and mustang sally...I came up the hard way. CFIIMEI and then on to the airlines. So I have time in tomahawks and jets. And the hardest plane I ever flew was the MU2. The best plane, the DC9...and a gentle cow, the 737 (except for rudder hardovers)
brian and inbalance, thank you. I wasn't looking for a pat on the back...just wanted to share something so that others might have a chance one day.
the chain jumped the sprocket...over downtown san jose...landed straight in with rudder in KSQL. the approach was over uninhabited area...san jose had too many folks under the flight path.
I don't think of it as heroic, just something I learned along time ago. Back in 1930's, a CAA inspector took off in a plane just out of mx. The ailerons were rigged backwards (sort of like the elevator trim being rigged backwards on the convair that crashed...but that's another thread).
After that, the CAA demanded that the rudder be able to handle such a situation.
and mustang sally...I came up the hard way. CFIIMEI and then on to the airlines. So I have time in tomahawks and jets. And the hardest plane I ever flew was the MU2. The best plane, the DC9...and a gentle cow, the 737 (except for rudder hardovers)
brian and inbalance, thank you. I wasn't looking for a pat on the back...just wanted to share something so that others might have a chance one day.
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Best Top 3 Post and discussion threads for System Design and Automation
- The Stick Pusher System, Stick Shaker System and the flap auto pitch trim system
- Speed tape/speed trend arrow, digital speed readout and low speed cue
- Partial automation is a deadly trap
- A .pdf Document Simulation Model Development for Icing
- units for physical quantities used herein arepresented in U.S. Customary Units. All aerodynamic dataare referenced to the body axis system
-
- b: wing span, ft
- c : mean aerodynamic chord, ft
- CA: axial-force coefficient, Axial force/ q S
- CN: normal-force coefficient, Normal force/ q S
- CY: side-force coefficient, Side force/ q S
- Cl: rolling-moment coefficient, Rolling moment/ q Sb
- Cm: pitching-moment coefficient, Pitching moment/ q S c
- Cn: yawing-moment coefficient, Yawing moment/ q Sb
- CAQ: axial-force coefficient due to pitch rate
- CNQ: normal-force coefficient due to pitch rate
- CYP: side-force coefficient due to roll rate
- CYR: side-force coefficient due to yaw rate
- ClP: rolling-moment coefficient due to roll rate
- ClR: rolling-moment coefficient due to yaw rate
- CmQ: pitching-moment coefficient due to pitch rate
- CnP: yawing-moment coefficient due to roll rate
- CnR: yawing-moment coefficient due to yaw rate
- p, q, r: body-axis roll, pitch, and yaw rates, rad/sec
- q : free-stream dynamic pressure, lb/ft2
- S: wing area, ft2
- V: free-stream velocity, ft/sec
- *: angle of attack, deg
- *: angle of sideslip, deg
- *: prefix for incremental component
- *: rate of rotation about the velocity vector, rad/sec
- *b/2V: non-dimensional rotation rate, positive forclockwise spin
- a: aileron deflection, positive when right trailing-edge isdown and left trailing-edge is up, (δa right - δa left)/2, deg
- f: flap deflection, positive when trailing-edge is down,deg
- h: horizontal tail deflection, positive when trailing-edgeis down, deg
- r: rudder deflection, positive when trailing-edge is left,deg
- * : denotes font symbol not recognized
- see .pdf for complete term
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PTH - a good exercise in secondary effects of the controls; well done! I hope that this is still practiced by other instructors. I always made a point of this to my students. Not easy near the ground, either.
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clandestino #1380
...My speculation is that it was both pilots' incapacitation brought on by the fatigue.
Maybe add...incapacitation brought on by the shock/surprise of what was happening when their bugs indicated it shouldn't be (forgetting 'the why didn't they see the bricks' issue), the distraction of the conversation they had been having, inexperience and perhaps tendency to not perform well under pressure (captain) and overarching all of this (and exaccerbating the effect of each one), fatigue.
...My speculation is that it was both pilots' incapacitation brought on by the fatigue.
Maybe add...incapacitation brought on by the shock/surprise of what was happening when their bugs indicated it shouldn't be (forgetting 'the why didn't they see the bricks' issue), the distraction of the conversation they had been having, inexperience and perhaps tendency to not perform well under pressure (captain) and overarching all of this (and exaccerbating the effect of each one), fatigue.
Last edited by xyze; 20th May 2009 at 10:43.
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There seems to be some misunderstanding about the ice protection of the Q400.
The procedure calls for "increase ref speed ON" in icing conditions. That switch nor only changes the AOA where the stick shaker starts. It also changes the red tape warning of the stall speed area on the speed tape.
So when you switch on "speed increase" you always have a very visible reminder on your speed tape indicating the now higher speed where the stick shaker will set in.
The procedure calls for "increase ref speed ON" in icing conditions. That switch nor only changes the AOA where the stick shaker starts. It also changes the red tape warning of the stall speed area on the speed tape.
So when you switch on "speed increase" you always have a very visible reminder on your speed tape indicating the now higher speed where the stick shaker will set in.
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Operations 2B - Interviews in Buffalo Capt. Dittmar (Checkairman with Colgan) in NTSB- Interview:
http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation...027/417449.pdf
are dangereous habits beeing hammered into young professional heads? FAA approved obviously?
TM
http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation...027/417449.pdf
He said 75 percent of pilots he sees do recover by pulling back against the pusher. At some point he stops the demonstration. He’s not sure if the sim ever crashes. No syllabus for this demonstration and he doesn’t recall it in the Colgan procedures. He is not aware if there is guidance from the manufacturer.
They use PTS standards for checking stall recovery procedures -- plus/minus 100 feet 10 knots 10 deg heading.
In training he has seen some issues with pilots maintaining plus/minus 100 feet. Has never come close to failing anybody on a stall procedure in a checking event. Has had to train to proficiency in a stall one time – they’d lost 200 feet. Retrained them for it. Did it again fine. The hard limits on the checkride have to be 100 percent. If they go outside the limits that it is a failure and obviously they bust the checkride.
In training he has seen some issues with pilots maintaining plus/minus 100 feet. Has never come close to failing anybody on a stall procedure in a checking event. Has had to train to proficiency in a stall one time – they’d lost 200 feet. Retrained them for it. Did it again fine. The hard limits on the checkride have to be 100 percent. If they go outside the limits that it is a failure and obviously they bust the checkride.
are dangereous habits beeing hammered into young professional heads? FAA approved obviously?
TM