Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo
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Once again for you guys with limited experience of hard winter flying in a turbo-prop...
There's a lot more to dealing with ice than simply activating the various systems and then talking about what you're doing at the weekend. We all become accustomed to 'normal' that's to say light to moderate icing... we see it develop on the wipers, the spinners, whatever. When we see it becoming other than 'normal' we need to apply some different measures... climb/descend, go sideways, whatever it takes to alter the prevailing conditions.... 3000 ft up or down will significantly alter the icing characteristics being experienced...
Once again (to avoid the flak) this comment is aimed at those with limited experience of icing ops... of which there appear to be many on this thread.
There's a lot more to dealing with ice than simply activating the various systems and then talking about what you're doing at the weekend. We all become accustomed to 'normal' that's to say light to moderate icing... we see it develop on the wipers, the spinners, whatever. When we see it becoming other than 'normal' we need to apply some different measures... climb/descend, go sideways, whatever it takes to alter the prevailing conditions.... 3000 ft up or down will significantly alter the icing characteristics being experienced...
Once again (to avoid the flak) this comment is aimed at those with limited experience of icing ops... of which there appear to be many on this thread.
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Other aicraft ...
I just wonder whether there were other Q400s on the same track/flight level around the time of the accident, and what they and other types of aircraft reported/experienced before and after the accident happened ...
That might (rpt, might) answer the question whether the accident was a "type" or "particular aircraft of that type" accident .
That might (rpt, might) answer the question whether the accident was a "type" or "particular aircraft of that type" accident .
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I find this talk of pilot Experience very interesting, In Canada a person with 3400 hours would be lucky to get a captain spot on a King Air shooting NDB approaches to Mins with nothing more than old school ADF's. Hearing about pilot's in Europe with 250 hours in a 737 hurts my brain to comprehend.(I am aware of the training difference's that taylor a new pilot to that type of flying)
Its not the Age its the Mileage,
As for a Q400 in Ice I would think that my country men/women know a thing or two about building a plane with the ability to handle Ice, also a very long resume of building aircraft to suit Canadian weather. I don't want to wave the flag too much here but I'm sure pilots and operators who deal with Ice daily such as Horizon/Porter or some of the Northern European operators would have encountered similar Icing conditions and aside from the gear issue at SAS it has an excellent reputation.
Dealing with Ice is just a part of the daily flying routine here (Canada and parts of the states especially around the great lakes), and hitting a pocket of unforcasted severe Icing in remote locations gets your attention. I have hit such Conditions and a clean aircraft has an inch in a matter of seconds and no matter how fast the boots can work it might not be enough if it where a prolonged exposure fortunately for me these pockets have been very brief liking it to someone throwing a bucket of water on your car as you drive by. Its always sobering to get on the ground and find how much accumulated on unprotected surfaces. And PIREPS are the only way of letting your friends behind you know its there.
I was reading a newspaper article labeling the crew as "young and inexperienced". I will leave the inexperienced comment up for debate, but young??? the Captain was 47 years old! That's pretty old in my books!
As for a Q400 in Ice I would think that my country men/women know a thing or two about building a plane with the ability to handle Ice, also a very long resume of building aircraft to suit Canadian weather. I don't want to wave the flag too much here but I'm sure pilots and operators who deal with Ice daily such as Horizon/Porter or some of the Northern European operators would have encountered similar Icing conditions and aside from the gear issue at SAS it has an excellent reputation.
Dealing with Ice is just a part of the daily flying routine here (Canada and parts of the states especially around the great lakes), and hitting a pocket of unforcasted severe Icing in remote locations gets your attention. I have hit such Conditions and a clean aircraft has an inch in a matter of seconds and no matter how fast the boots can work it might not be enough if it where a prolonged exposure fortunately for me these pockets have been very brief liking it to someone throwing a bucket of water on your car as you drive by. Its always sobering to get on the ground and find how much accumulated on unprotected surfaces. And PIREPS are the only way of letting your friends behind you know its there.
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Comments to MungoP in #458
I flew some years ago turboprops (F-27) in the (sometimes) harsh Scandinavian winters without any ice related incident, and I agree 100% with the contents of your post.
A very important aspect (in my opinion) of safe flying in icing conditions is always to keep the airspeed as high as possible as long as possible - in order to keep a low angle of attack. So of course we always applied at least the Flight Manual required speed increments.
Several posts states - NTSB is cited as the source - that the crew of CO3407 flew ONLY 134 knots when selecting gear and initial flaps.
This low speed puzzles me - and if it is true, I wonder why they did so!
g
A very important aspect (in my opinion) of safe flying in icing conditions is always to keep the airspeed as high as possible as long as possible - in order to keep a low angle of attack. So of course we always applied at least the Flight Manual required speed increments.
Several posts states - NTSB is cited as the source - that the crew of CO3407 flew ONLY 134 knots when selecting gear and initial flaps.
This low speed puzzles me - and if it is true, I wonder why they did so!
g
I just wonder whether there were other Q400s on the same track/flight level around the time of the accident, and what they and other types of aircraft reported/experienced before and after the accident happened ...
That might (rpt, might) answer the question whether the accident was a "type" or "particular aircraft of that type" accident .
That might (rpt, might) answer the question whether the accident was a "type" or "particular aircraft of that type" accident .
AerocatS2A
a rather dismissive post, but I intend to pursue this issue anyhow.
Quote:
And how is the flight crew able to see and interpret this for the specific aircraft?
They read their flight manual.
And how is the flight crew able to see and interpret this for the specific aircraft?
They read their flight manual.
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grebllaw123d
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One of the ridiculous anomalies of our industry seems to be that the trickiest aircraft to operate (ie turboprops on short regional hops ) are flown by the least experienced and lowest paid.
Put me in the camp with those who support the reliability of this aircraft. Logic alone would tell you that there must be hundreds (thousands?) of these planes operating every day in conditions similar to or much worse than those encountered last week. If there was an inherent problem with this aircraft type in these conditions, one would expect to see quite a few more of these incidents. Nonetheless, from the comments made by experienced pilots on this forum, this type of aircraft seems to require certain shall we say precautions on the part of the crew when encountering these conditions. Common sense would then lead one to consider pilot (in)experience and other human factors as at least contributing factors.
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Iomapaseo
You wrote:
"And how is the flight crew able to see and interpret this for the specific aircraft?"
You know by experience from flying in icing conditions how the exterior of the aircraft looks with different amounts of ice on it, so you look out and check the engines, leading edges of the wings and the front windshield and make an assesment. On low wing aircraft you may see the upper surfaces of the wings from the cabin. Some Flight Manuals may give you guidance where to look.
Read MungoP's post #465 about the airspeed - his information is very relevant!
brgds
"And how is the flight crew able to see and interpret this for the specific aircraft?"
You know by experience from flying in icing conditions how the exterior of the aircraft looks with different amounts of ice on it, so you look out and check the engines, leading edges of the wings and the front windshield and make an assesment. On low wing aircraft you may see the upper surfaces of the wings from the cabin. Some Flight Manuals may give you guidance where to look.
Read MungoP's post #465 about the airspeed - his information is very relevant!
brgds
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ogic alone would tell you that there must be hundreds (thousands?) of these planes operating every day in conditions similar to or much worse than those encountered last week.
I don't know what the rate is in terms of flight hours or sectors compared to, say, a 737 or even a CRJ/EMB, but I would say that the record suggests to me that the anti-Dash 8 crowd might want to consider how their comments are making them look.
Beech
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NTSB says decending from 1800 to 1000 ft took 5 seconds, and there is not much reason to believe this rate was reduced prior to impact. That's seven seconds out of 26 since the event began, leaving 19 seconds that the plane managed to stay above 1800 ft.
There's much we don't know yet about those 19 seconds, hopefully the NTSB can shed more light today.
There's much we don't know yet about those 19 seconds, hopefully the NTSB can shed more light today.
Flight Safety;
Re Post #441
Superb post. I suspect many have quietly done so as well. The value of this forum may again be incalculable in terms of "accidents prevented".
Re Post #441
When I study accidents, I always try to take away lessons learned. There are a lot of things in accident findings that I can't change, but I can mitigate. So for this accident, I take away the following, based on the information released so far.
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Earlier on, I posted a perfectly reasonable theory involving a partial recovery from a stall/spin, a flat upright pancake landing, and it seems to have been reasonably on the mark except for a few minor details (tail stall or not, number of rotations etc).
The post was hooted down and deleted. Is this a cigars-only gentleman's club of Titanic Builders who do not welcome outside opinion ?
Because I was shot down twice in helicopters, am I not allowed to venture an opinion re fixed wing aircraft ?
If this forum does not remain uncensored, then we will have only Fox news and government agencies to rely upon.
By the way pitch controls airspeed, power controls altitude. Yuk yuk.
The post was hooted down and deleted. Is this a cigars-only gentleman's club of Titanic Builders who do not welcome outside opinion ?
Because I was shot down twice in helicopters, am I not allowed to venture an opinion re fixed wing aircraft ?
If this forum does not remain uncensored, then we will have only Fox news and government agencies to rely upon.
By the way pitch controls airspeed, power controls altitude. Yuk yuk.
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I am not Canadian, but I will wave their flag. When it comes to building tough capable airplanes the Canadians take second place to nobody. It’s significant to remember the Dash-8 Q-400 is the latest evolution of the tremendously successful Dash 8 turboprop line with numerous predecessors. The Q-400 flies with a long tradition. The Canadian Bombardier aerospace/manufacturing company is intimately knowledgeable regarding the requirements necessary to fly successfully in harsh winter and icing conditions. They are arguable the leader in business aviation (I flew their Challenger series jet) and the regional aircraft market (RJs & Dash-8 series). They build an outstanding product. Ask the men and women that fly them.
Like all accidents we will have to wait for the investigation to run its course. Until then most of what you hear is speculation, often fueled by incorrect rumors. In other words dribble. Did the accident aircraft in fact first pitch up radically? How does that fit in with the tail stalling? What was in the cargo compartment and how was it secured?
I don’t mind non-professional pilots being her, or even posting. Most of them are just looking for good answers. That is a good thing as they won’t be getting reliable information from the general media. We just have to ignore the really dumb posts: “ground the airplanes”, “what prescription drugs were the pilots on”. It’s just like our passengers right? Out of a couple hundred really nice people you are going to find a small percentage you would rather they were somewhere else.
Like all accidents we will have to wait for the investigation to run its course. Until then most of what you hear is speculation, often fueled by incorrect rumors. In other words dribble. Did the accident aircraft in fact first pitch up radically? How does that fit in with the tail stalling? What was in the cargo compartment and how was it secured?
I don’t mind non-professional pilots being her, or even posting. Most of them are just looking for good answers. That is a good thing as they won’t be getting reliable information from the general media. We just have to ignore the really dumb posts: “ground the airplanes”, “what prescription drugs were the pilots on”. It’s just like our passengers right? Out of a couple hundred really nice people you are going to find a small percentage you would rather they were somewhere else.
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DASH 8 safety record..
BeachNut and others,
Regarding the flight safety statistics of the DASH 8, remarkable information may be found on this link:
Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety Database > Aircraft type index
When compared to other similar commuter aircraft types (ATR, F-27, FOKKER50, EMBRAER etc..) the DASH 8 has a VERY good rating.
So congratulations Canada - you have made a reliable and safe aircraft type!
brgds
Regarding the flight safety statistics of the DASH 8, remarkable information may be found on this link:
Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety Database > Aircraft type index
When compared to other similar commuter aircraft types (ATR, F-27, FOKKER50, EMBRAER etc..) the DASH 8 has a VERY good rating.
So congratulations Canada - you have made a reliable and safe aircraft type!
brgds
Last edited by grebllaw123d; 16th Feb 2009 at 17:48.
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Earlier on, I posted a perfectly reasonable theory involving a partial recovery from a stall/spin, a flat upright pancake landing, and it seems to have been reasonably on the mark except for a few minor details (tail stall or not, number of rotations etc).
The post was hooted down and deleted. Is this a cigars-only gentleman's club of Titanic Builders who do not welcome outside opinion ?
The post was hooted down and deleted. Is this a cigars-only gentleman's club of Titanic Builders who do not welcome outside opinion ?
Sure, we could wait a year to find out what happened like they do in some countries. But some of us were flying in icing conditions the night of the crash, and the next night and the night after. Any clue that might make this winter's flying safer helps us all.
This wide-ranging discussion of possible causes for the mishap has been educational for me and others. As Steve Chealander put it yesterday "We're not experts on the Q400 aircraft but by the time this investigation is over, we will be."
Iomapaseo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You wrote:
"And how is the flight crew able to see and interpret this for the specific aircraft?"
You know by experience from flying in icing conditions how the exterior of the aircraft looks with different amounts of ice on it, so you look out and check the engines, leading edges of the wings and the front windshield and make an assesment. On low wing aircraft you may see the upper surfaces of the wings from the cabin. Some Flight Manuals may give you guidance where to look.
Read MungoP's post #465 about the airspeed - his information is very relevant!
brgds
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You wrote:
"And how is the flight crew able to see and interpret this for the specific aircraft?"
You know by experience from flying in icing conditions how the exterior of the aircraft looks with different amounts of ice on it, so you look out and check the engines, leading edges of the wings and the front windshield and make an assesment. On low wing aircraft you may see the upper surfaces of the wings from the cabin. Some Flight Manuals may give you guidance where to look.
Read MungoP's post #465 about the airspeed - his information is very relevant!
brgds
but I have serious doubts that a survey of pilots would show any kind of universal agreement in a highly subjective peek out the window at night.
Thus the intent is to get rid of this subjectivity (lesson learned)