Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto
Age: 79
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah, yes. The flight crew paid with their lives. The Colgan executives will upgrade their lifestyle capabilities and go on to manage new airlines. The corporate lawyers will claim billable hours for the next two decades. Military and corporate senior officers never have to accept the responsibilities for their incompetence. That's what junior officers are for.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Petaluma
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sb sfo
#1482 above is my motto. Disorder breeds ruin. One magnitude beneath Continental droppin' down to 'Crest' airways, 'We make you smile'. It's in there. Long landing approved.
Will, smf
Kilo, that's uncalled for, and not my experience.
#1482 above is my motto. Disorder breeds ruin. One magnitude beneath Continental droppin' down to 'Crest' airways, 'We make you smile'. It's in there. Long landing approved.
Will, smf
Kilo, that's uncalled for, and not my experience.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto
Age: 79
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Colgan's pilots are dead. It's good corporate law practice to dump all the responsibility on them (but don't forget the big fee for doing that). Flight crews lives are cheap. Long live executive bonuses.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Petaluma
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kilo
It doesn't work that way. The jury will assign 'portions of liability'.
From the oleo manufacturer's secretary to the bleed nipples inspector, there are probably 200 'John Does' in the complaint. FAA, Tower, Radios, Radar, it will take years. You are right about the lawyers, however. Scum.
It doesn't work that way. The jury will assign 'portions of liability'.
From the oleo manufacturer's secretary to the bleed nipples inspector, there are probably 200 'John Does' in the complaint. FAA, Tower, Radios, Radar, it will take years. You are right about the lawyers, however. Scum.
Will and KMD
I don't disregard Colgan's responsibility, but even I am not so cynical to believe that enterprises can kill their customers without some price. Ask ValuJet, do you think US Air didn't have problems after their accident record in the early '90s, Tower Air went under after maintenance issues plus a plane sliding off the runway, there are consequences. EAL's corporate officers were thrown overboard and were rarely seen again. In a free market economy, reputations mean something--kill people and a price will be paid.
Will: specifically-Colgan, like all commuters are caught in a tough economic environment. As any business enterprise, it has to balance costs and revenues available in the market. They screwed up, despite making it clear that sleeping in crew rooms was forbidden, they didn't police it, seemingly cast a blind eye to it. Should airline operations REQUIRE crews to live in their assigned domiciles--YES! Should professionals be ready and rested to fly-YES! EAL required crews to live within "reasonable ground transportation" of their domiciles. Should that be the standard-YES!
With regards to senior military officers, few know the Federal conviction for dereliction of duty levied on the commander after the famous B-52 accident at Spokane. He lost retirement, spent time in Leavenworth, was disgraced.
GF
I don't disregard Colgan's responsibility, but even I am not so cynical to believe that enterprises can kill their customers without some price. Ask ValuJet, do you think US Air didn't have problems after their accident record in the early '90s, Tower Air went under after maintenance issues plus a plane sliding off the runway, there are consequences. EAL's corporate officers were thrown overboard and were rarely seen again. In a free market economy, reputations mean something--kill people and a price will be paid.
Will: specifically-Colgan, like all commuters are caught in a tough economic environment. As any business enterprise, it has to balance costs and revenues available in the market. They screwed up, despite making it clear that sleeping in crew rooms was forbidden, they didn't police it, seemingly cast a blind eye to it. Should airline operations REQUIRE crews to live in their assigned domiciles--YES! Should professionals be ready and rested to fly-YES! EAL required crews to live within "reasonable ground transportation" of their domiciles. Should that be the standard-YES!
With regards to senior military officers, few know the Federal conviction for dereliction of duty levied on the commander after the famous B-52 accident at Spokane. He lost retirement, spent time in Leavenworth, was disgraced.
GF
KMD has postulated the special case of airline upper management.
The general case applies to corporate upper management which screws customers, employees, stockholders and the various levels of government in whichever way maximises their bonuses.
Is Colgan or Continental any less moral than your average US corporation or government entity of similar size? -- not by very much if at all.
Deregulation and the above cited corporate culture have been very hard on the integrity of employed professionals in many fields. North American pilots in particular know that there's scores of aspiring pilots willing to work for any turbine operator for Burger King wages whatever the roster.
It's not just the big corporations.
Here in Canada there's all sorts of smaller operators who have to take shortcuts to stay in business. Pilots who complain about current or former employers to Transport Canada generally find the effort futile.
The general case applies to corporate upper management which screws customers, employees, stockholders and the various levels of government in whichever way maximises their bonuses.
Is Colgan or Continental any less moral than your average US corporation or government entity of similar size? -- not by very much if at all.
Deregulation and the above cited corporate culture have been very hard on the integrity of employed professionals in many fields. North American pilots in particular know that there's scores of aspiring pilots willing to work for any turbine operator for Burger King wages whatever the roster.
It's not just the big corporations.
Here in Canada there's all sorts of smaller operators who have to take shortcuts to stay in business. Pilots who complain about current or former employers to Transport Canada generally find the effort futile.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Petaluma
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In a disorganized and unregulated market, you get what you pay for.
Tickets are too cheap. Too many gates. Tired clappy a/c. Carpet smells like puke, 'Pilots' with wrinkled whites and unshined boots. 'Pilots' who pay to 'fly', who pay 32,000 USD to get the ATP with 1500 hours in eighteen months. Who get hired. Sully has to fly F/O because his line buckled. He flies a 320 ? with his cv ? (No Offense). Don't listen to me, listen to him.
Self Regulation ? On what Planet.
C-5 - I did not say I believed the line could suffer loss of pax with impunity. Ever.
Tickets are too cheap. Too many gates. Tired clappy a/c. Carpet smells like puke, 'Pilots' with wrinkled whites and unshined boots. 'Pilots' who pay to 'fly', who pay 32,000 USD to get the ATP with 1500 hours in eighteen months. Who get hired. Sully has to fly F/O because his line buckled. He flies a 320 ? with his cv ? (No Offense). Don't listen to me, listen to him.
Self Regulation ? On what Planet.
C-5 - I did not say I believed the line could suffer loss of pax with impunity. Ever.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...a lot of dumping on the Captain.
I've seen enough students 'fight' the pusher under sim training so without correction or remedial support from the instructor, I can see how this reaction fit the scenario. Pulling as a response, if you like. I'd suggest this guy was one of many who would 'pull' as opposed to 'push' in response to a surprise like the pusher activation.
Surprised?
No. I'm not.
From where I sit, the uncommanded retraction of flaps during a stall is what finally brought this aircraft down. It would appear from what's been made public so far, it was the F/O that did that without any request to do so, and IMHO, did so w/o thinking. Who knows what a panicked mind produces for thought, but she may have thought it would reduce drag forgetting the increase to stalling speed. This would surely have reintroduced pusher and being that close to the ground, the PF 'pulled'.
Either way, experience and training played a HUGE role in the outcome. Past 'failures' are exactly that. Past. The PTS cuts you no slack and a pink slip is always that close on any 61.58. Regionals in the U.S. "eat their young" with regularity AND pleasure.
Flight crews at Colgan can only stand to benefit from this accident. Flight crews throughout the Regional Airlines will also benefit. It's only a matter of time and patience. It's just a tragic way to discover or accept what's broken and what needs fixin'.
Willie
Lord of the Flys
I've seen enough students 'fight' the pusher under sim training so without correction or remedial support from the instructor, I can see how this reaction fit the scenario. Pulling as a response, if you like. I'd suggest this guy was one of many who would 'pull' as opposed to 'push' in response to a surprise like the pusher activation.
Surprised?
No. I'm not.
From where I sit, the uncommanded retraction of flaps during a stall is what finally brought this aircraft down. It would appear from what's been made public so far, it was the F/O that did that without any request to do so, and IMHO, did so w/o thinking. Who knows what a panicked mind produces for thought, but she may have thought it would reduce drag forgetting the increase to stalling speed. This would surely have reintroduced pusher and being that close to the ground, the PF 'pulled'.
Either way, experience and training played a HUGE role in the outcome. Past 'failures' are exactly that. Past. The PTS cuts you no slack and a pink slip is always that close on any 61.58. Regionals in the U.S. "eat their young" with regularity AND pleasure.
Flight crews at Colgan can only stand to benefit from this accident. Flight crews throughout the Regional Airlines will also benefit. It's only a matter of time and patience. It's just a tragic way to discover or accept what's broken and what needs fixin'.
Willie
Lord of the Flys
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto
Age: 79
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh, I know that. Lawyers mastarbate until the fees stop. It's really unfortunate that the flight deck, cabin checkin and ramp crews pay for the incompetent management by airline executives. Everyone wants to be a CEO and will ignore the consequences of getting there (unless they're psychopaths - this may apply to airline executives).
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: US
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...a lot of dumping on the Captain.
I've seen enough students 'fight' the pusher under sim training so without correction or remedial support from the instructor, I can see how this reaction fit the scenario. Pulling as a response, if you like. I'd suggest this guy was one of many who would 'pull' as opposed to 'push' in response to a surprise like the pusher activation.
I've seen enough students 'fight' the pusher under sim training so without correction or remedial support from the instructor, I can see how this reaction fit the scenario. Pulling as a response, if you like. I'd suggest this guy was one of many who would 'pull' as opposed to 'push' in response to a surprise like the pusher activation.
I'm not convinced there ever was an imminent stall condition until the captain induced one.
Last edited by MU3001A; 28th Jul 2009 at 01:58.
If lack of sleep was a contributing factor?
From another pprune thread - the EK407 tail strike
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...ike-ml-47.html
Quote "He had slept for only 3.5 hours in the 24 hours before the flight taking off on March 20."
Unfortunately it would appear to be not just a problem for feeder airlines.
After too many accidents caused by sleepy / sleeping drivers, driving hours in the long-haul trucking industry are now (at least partially) monitored via cameras on overhead gantries and in-truck recorders. Not as simple for the airlines, but it may come to this.
regards
layman
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...ike-ml-47.html
Quote "He had slept for only 3.5 hours in the 24 hours before the flight taking off on March 20."
Unfortunately it would appear to be not just a problem for feeder airlines.
After too many accidents caused by sleepy / sleeping drivers, driving hours in the long-haul trucking industry are now (at least partially) monitored via cameras on overhead gantries and in-truck recorders. Not as simple for the airlines, but it may come to this.
regards
layman
$15,800
Well, I would choose to avoid flying with such a poorly paid flight crew. I have had well paid jobs and I have performed accordingly. When I had to spend a few pounds to get a good breakfast on the road so that I could be fresh and ready for business then I just did it. I did not consider for a second whether I could claim it on expenses or not since I could afford it. I would never choose to get on a flight where the crew were treated so meanly as this one. It is just death, waiting to happen. No one can live on such a ludicrous salary and be expected to behave professionally - it is simply impossible.
Burger flipper salary - burger flipper professionalism.
Thing is, that no matter how much such poorly paid people try to be professional, they simply cannot afford the cost.
I would like to see the flight crew salary displayed on the ticketing system so that I can choose suitable airlines.Then the public could at least choose whether they want burger flippers or pilots.
Burger flipper salary - burger flipper professionalism.
Thing is, that no matter how much such poorly paid people try to be professional, they simply cannot afford the cost.
I would like to see the flight crew salary displayed on the ticketing system so that I can choose suitable airlines.Then the public could at least choose whether they want burger flippers or pilots.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: US
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Experience level I think is very important in airline safety. What are the thoughts on this accident? Both were relatively new to the company and came with minimal experience. Do you think they were qualified?
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Feriton
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One thing puzzles me though. I read (and word searched) the entire CVR transcript and never noticed any talk of the switch or the boots being activated. Anyone venture a guess as to why?
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: US
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Correct!
Look at the very beginning of the CVR transcript. Anti-ice was activated very early on in the flight, presumably including the INCR REF sw per SOP? and is completely automated.
Set and forget, literally.
Look at the very beginning of the CVR transcript. Anti-ice was activated very early on in the flight, presumably including the INCR REF sw per SOP? and is completely automated.
Set and forget, literally.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: North Cornwall
Age: 73
Posts: 428
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is covered in this article:
FAA probes Colgan on pilot overscheduling : Home: The Buffalo News
FAA probes Colgan on pilot overscheduling : Home: The Buffalo News
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Age: 41
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
rgbrock1,
On the Dash the INCR REF (increased reference speed) switch is used whenever the aircraft is in or is going to enter icing conditions (i.e. flight in cloud, rain etc. and the temperature is below 5 degrees).
It increases the speed at which the aircraft will activate the stick shaker and stick pusher in responce to a slow speed stall situation. It does this because when aircraft wings and other surfaces have any ice built up on them the wing is less efficient and therefore the wing will stall at a faster speed than it would when it is clear.
Hope this helps
Rob
On the Dash the INCR REF (increased reference speed) switch is used whenever the aircraft is in or is going to enter icing conditions (i.e. flight in cloud, rain etc. and the temperature is below 5 degrees).
It increases the speed at which the aircraft will activate the stick shaker and stick pusher in responce to a slow speed stall situation. It does this because when aircraft wings and other surfaces have any ice built up on them the wing is less efficient and therefore the wing will stall at a faster speed than it would when it is clear.
Hope this helps
Rob