BA038 (B777) Thread
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: London-Thailand-Australia
Age: 15
Posts: 1,057
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Media
PB,
The media have always scared airline management, unless the story was favourable to the airline.
This whole BA038 story is a good example of of the diminishing support tech crews receive by airlines, supporting their staff until the final report is in public.
I think it is also fair to say, it is possible your situation was not as well handled by your company/media departments as it should have been or lets hope that the industry is reminded about the silent personal suffering tech crews may endure after been deemed "hero's" by the airline, the media and the public.
I trust that some B777 carriers could see the value in having you on board soon. It is now clear you did all you could to save that load of people that day and am sure the SLFs will board just as quickly knowing that PB was in the front left seat.
As a PB supporter on this thread along the bumpy ride of its contents, simply just want to say "wishing you all the best for the future."
The media have always scared airline management, unless the story was favourable to the airline.
This whole BA038 story is a good example of of the diminishing support tech crews receive by airlines, supporting their staff until the final report is in public.
I think it is also fair to say, it is possible your situation was not as well handled by your company/media departments as it should have been or lets hope that the industry is reminded about the silent personal suffering tech crews may endure after been deemed "hero's" by the airline, the media and the public.
I trust that some B777 carriers could see the value in having you on board soon. It is now clear you did all you could to save that load of people that day and am sure the SLFs will board just as quickly knowing that PB was in the front left seat.
As a PB supporter on this thread along the bumpy ride of its contents, simply just want to say "wishing you all the best for the future."
Last edited by TIMA9X; 24th Mar 2010 at 12:30.
Controversial, moi?
I trust that some B777 carriers could see the value in having you on board soon.
a) a well known name, associated with a nasty accident not of his making, who has his own website, has written a book (which the author has implied contains a few things which his former management will not like) and resigned from the accident company for reasons which remain unclear?
or
b) a qualified pilot with good references?
....just want to say "wishing you all the best for the future."
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Worcester
Age: 59
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
M Mouse
If you were an airline recruitment manager would you employ:
a) a well known name, associated with a nasty accident not of his making, who has his own website, has written a book (which the author has implied contains a few things which his former management will not like) and resigned from the accident company for reasons which remain unclear?
a) a well known name, associated with a nasty accident not of his making, who has his own website, has written a book (which the author has implied contains a few things which his former management will not like) and resigned from the accident company for reasons which remain unclear?
Therefore anything that may appear to be negative can be rectified by acknowledging there was a flaw in the system and finding ways to fix it. The clock cannot be turned back for me, but if 'former management' can see that things could be different then the book can be turned into a positive.
Refusals for interview came before there was a website, before there was talk of a book. Refusals for interview cannot be blamed on the site or book.
My name and incident were high profile - not my fault.
or
b) a qualified pilot with good references?
b) a qualified pilot with good references?
Second Law
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Wirral
Age: 77
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What say a campaign for a PB gong? MBE/OBE - you tell me.
I look at some of the showbiz names that get these and think "you must be kidding - or on Class A controlled "; now here's a chap who really has done something useful!
Yes I know, criteria.
And yes, I've bought a book.
CW
I look at some of the showbiz names that get these and think "you must be kidding - or on Class A controlled "; now here's a chap who really has done something useful!
Yes I know, criteria.
And yes, I've bought a book.
CW
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kristiansund in Norway
Age: 53
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is realy the reason that some airlines would not employ a pilot involved in a crash,even when invastgation give him credit for doing a good job.I have heard stories of doctor,s saying post traumatic stress can give flashback in a new emergency,but this is I belive a very inaccurate science.I strongly belive a pilot who is climbing on the horse again so soon after such an event as Mr Burkill did,will do it with growing confidence knowing he can handle an emergency.Most pilots never face a critical situation like this,and it is natural to think "How will I react if this or that happen?"
To Mr Burkill:Hope you will get a new job soon.If not succeding with a 777 job,could you consider another aircraft type?You have probably many typeratings which I off course know nothing about.I know that in Scandinavian there is no major different in pilot,s pay between an 737 driver or an A330 driver,but I am not sure how this is in the rest of the world between the different aircraft size,s
Anyway I wish you and you family a happy future,and hope I will be your passanger one day.
To Mr Burkill:Hope you will get a new job soon.If not succeding with a 777 job,could you consider another aircraft type?You have probably many typeratings which I off course know nothing about.I know that in Scandinavian there is no major different in pilot,s pay between an 737 driver or an A330 driver,but I am not sure how this is in the rest of the world between the different aircraft size,s
Anyway I wish you and you family a happy future,and hope I will be your passanger one day.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Amity Island
Age: 44
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peter,
What I am about to say is said with the following in mind:
1. Nobody but you knows how you felt after returning to work - it must have been both trying and frustrating to say the very least what with the rumour mill in overdrive.
2. The 130,000 (less taxmans share) plus an implied nod with another carrier no doubt seemed very appealing especially given point 1.
3. The desire to put pen to paper and document your version must have been huge, especially since the company were so sluggish in stopping the rumour mill in its tracks - Robert Piche (Air Transat A330) and Bob Pearson (AC 767 Gimli Glider) have both done it.
That said (and understanding there was a time window element to the VR scheme), maybe it would have been more prudent to forego the VR golden handshake, instead secure in writing a place with another outfit no matter how long it took and leave after the standard three month notice period. At least that way you would still be doing the job you love, still have your family home etc etc.
That out of the way, you and your crews actions were beyond words.
Sir, I salute you.
CB
What I am about to say is said with the following in mind:
1. Nobody but you knows how you felt after returning to work - it must have been both trying and frustrating to say the very least what with the rumour mill in overdrive.
2. The 130,000 (less taxmans share) plus an implied nod with another carrier no doubt seemed very appealing especially given point 1.
3. The desire to put pen to paper and document your version must have been huge, especially since the company were so sluggish in stopping the rumour mill in its tracks - Robert Piche (Air Transat A330) and Bob Pearson (AC 767 Gimli Glider) have both done it.
That said (and understanding there was a time window element to the VR scheme), maybe it would have been more prudent to forego the VR golden handshake, instead secure in writing a place with another outfit no matter how long it took and leave after the standard three month notice period. At least that way you would still be doing the job you love, still have your family home etc etc.
That out of the way, you and your crews actions were beyond words.
Sir, I salute you.
CB
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK sometimes
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peter,
I was driving home from having flown one sector this morning and was very moved by your story on Radio 5 Live. How you described the event and what happened was one of the most gripping pieces of radio I have ever heard.
I think what happened afterwards to you sums up a great deal about what aviation is like today.
Maybe the beancounters who run airlines these days realise that doing double entry book keeping will never turn up a situation where they might be lauded a hero and thus don't want someone to take the limelight away from them (However inadvertantly). Hence the constant down grading of aircrew's Ts and Cs and general status in society.
All I can say is that you did a fantastic job and i wish you and your family all the very best for the future.
I was driving home from having flown one sector this morning and was very moved by your story on Radio 5 Live. How you described the event and what happened was one of the most gripping pieces of radio I have ever heard.
I think what happened afterwards to you sums up a great deal about what aviation is like today.
Maybe the beancounters who run airlines these days realise that doing double entry book keeping will never turn up a situation where they might be lauded a hero and thus don't want someone to take the limelight away from them (However inadvertantly). Hence the constant down grading of aircrew's Ts and Cs and general status in society.
All I can say is that you did a fantastic job and i wish you and your family all the very best for the future.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the EU on a small Island
Age: 79
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VERY late on this thread, may I just say as an ex-ATCO [military] I wish you the very best of luck for the future?
I have seen, from Local, too many people who did not achieve what you did. I have seen the smoking holes, and watched it happen whilst hitting the Crash bells far too often ... and had the traditional "drink on his Bar Book until midnight" because the Mess Bill will be written off. I don't want to think about counting how often, but having been there too often it's a difficult feeling.
You and your pax walked away.
God bless and good luck for your future.
I have seen, from Local, too many people who did not achieve what you did. I have seen the smoking holes, and watched it happen whilst hitting the Crash bells far too often ... and had the traditional "drink on his Bar Book until midnight" because the Mess Bill will be written off. I don't want to think about counting how often, but having been there too often it's a difficult feeling.
You and your pax walked away.
God bless and good luck for your future.
I also heard your explanation on radio 5 live. As a Licensed Engineer, I applaud your actions, I am sure that you will find alternative employment in time.
Best Regards,
Best Regards,
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mayday Calls
Whilst in the sim, people parrot out the correct Mayday call with the correct info in the event of calamity - particularly engine fire on ground etc. It apears that for a variety of reasons, these calls are not made in the event of the real thing
When the BA RJ nose leg collapsed at LCY last year, all that came over the radio was a shrieked ladies voice stating '......This is an emergency!.....' - nothing more. In that case, the important info was the number of people on board and that they are stopping and evacuating on the runway or heading for a swim (which would have been very useful if it was about to happen) - it was blindingly (i.e. sparks in the dark) obvious that an emergency was underway. LCY had lots of turboprops with engines running within yards of the BA RJ - ready for the pax to walk into the props
Reading the book, a lot of emphasis is placed on the lack of this call. In the BA 777 case, it would not have made any difference. At LCY, with the BA RJ, it would have been vital if the BA RJ had been landing the other way (r/w 10) in reduced viz and heading into the water etc
I think the BA training could be imprpoved to cover this aspect and the AAIB report did not highlight this as a safey issue in either the BA 777 or BA RJ reports
When the BA RJ nose leg collapsed at LCY last year, all that came over the radio was a shrieked ladies voice stating '......This is an emergency!.....' - nothing more. In that case, the important info was the number of people on board and that they are stopping and evacuating on the runway or heading for a swim (which would have been very useful if it was about to happen) - it was blindingly (i.e. sparks in the dark) obvious that an emergency was underway. LCY had lots of turboprops with engines running within yards of the BA RJ - ready for the pax to walk into the props
Reading the book, a lot of emphasis is placed on the lack of this call. In the BA 777 case, it would not have made any difference. At LCY, with the BA RJ, it would have been vital if the BA RJ had been landing the other way (r/w 10) in reduced viz and heading into the water etc
I think the BA training could be imprpoved to cover this aspect and the AAIB report did not highlight this as a safey issue in either the BA 777 or BA RJ reports
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Pretty far away
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peter
As a 777 skipper ( AF ) I find your story very humbling. We can all be as cocky as we want, when fate makes the kind of call you had to handle, how many of us would come out blameless. I sure hope to God this never happens to me.
The kind of crap you apparently had to deal with withing your own airline is mind blowing and of course it is hard to put oneself in your shoes as to why you took such a decision. However, my woossy self tends to think I wouldn't have ventured out in the cold and certainly not with an " informal " promise from Emirates of all bean counters.
So, you made a bad decision. Should you be left out to dry for it ??? I think not and I strongly support the view you should be reinstated as a 777 Captain.
Had I known you then, I would never have told you other airlines were going to snatch your hand given the sour course your story had taken. Airlines hate publicity they cannot control. We learned it the hard way following the loss of 447.
One more question : what became of your relationship with your 2 copilots while you were considering leaving ? I take it that they stayed, didn't they ?
I've ordered your book and I am looking foward to a very informative read.
All the very best.
Me
As a 777 skipper ( AF ) I find your story very humbling. We can all be as cocky as we want, when fate makes the kind of call you had to handle, how many of us would come out blameless. I sure hope to God this never happens to me.
The kind of crap you apparently had to deal with withing your own airline is mind blowing and of course it is hard to put oneself in your shoes as to why you took such a decision. However, my woossy self tends to think I wouldn't have ventured out in the cold and certainly not with an " informal " promise from Emirates of all bean counters.
So, you made a bad decision. Should you be left out to dry for it ??? I think not and I strongly support the view you should be reinstated as a 777 Captain.
Had I known you then, I would never have told you other airlines were going to snatch your hand given the sour course your story had taken. Airlines hate publicity they cannot control. We learned it the hard way following the loss of 447.
One more question : what became of your relationship with your 2 copilots while you were considering leaving ? I take it that they stayed, didn't they ?
I've ordered your book and I am looking foward to a very informative read.
All the very best.
Me
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: london
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mayday calls have a use if you have the luxury of time to do something and receive help. If not as in this case a total waste of time,same for the ditching in the hudson,the ryanair birdsrikes in rome.Nothing would have changed if they spent the whole time broadcasting mayday.
A lot of companies over train in the use of mayday calls. Thinking time is more important than mayday calls.
A lot of companies over train in the use of mayday calls. Thinking time is more important than mayday calls.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Pretty far away
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What an intergalactical stupid thing to say.
The guys were trying to keep this aircraft flying with hundreds of fault messages on the screen trying to figure out what the hell is going on.
What is a mayday call going to achieve in the middle of the Atlantic where no one can help you.
Are you for real ?
The guys were trying to keep this aircraft flying with hundreds of fault messages on the screen trying to figure out what the hell is going on.
What is a mayday call going to achieve in the middle of the Atlantic where no one can help you.
Are you for real ?
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peter
I have just listened to your interview with Glenn Pew on AvWeb:
The Crash of BA038
Two things struck me about your interview:
1. Your command decision to leave John as PF while you took command of the situation was outstanding, and clearly led to the next decision which saved a worse outcome.
2. Your command decision, devoid of any procedural or sim justification, to go F25 has been vindicated as resulting in a far better outcome than hitting the ILS antenna.
Your description of your 6 secs of aircraft checks that led to the decision to go F25 demonstrates true Command skill. You gave yourself thinking time from a broader perspective.
Reading that, my thoughts turned to AA965 on 20Dec1995; the B757 that hit terrain at night after a botched approach to Cali, Columbia. Although the FO, who was PF and equally as experienced on the B757 as the Capt, the report stated "Although the accident flightcrew articulated misgivings several times during the approach, neither pilot displayed the objectivity necessary to recognize that they had lost situation awareness and effective CRM."
Interpreted, this suggests the Capt failed to look at the whole situation and recognise the flight as having departed a whole set of criteria required to continue the approach. Once the GPWS sounded and the FO executed the escape manoeuvre, he appears not to have done what you did in scanning and ensuring the aircraft configuration was optimal. He missed the air brakes still being extended. The aircraft impacted 250 feet below the top of the ridge. As with the AAIB, the report could not speculate on the outcome had they been retracted in time, other than to say "Because the B-757 flight simulators could not be back driven during the tests, it could not be determined with precision whether the airplane would have missed the mountain/tree tops if the speedbrakes had been retracted during the escape attempt." We are all left to guess that outcome. It is one of multiple events during their approach where "if only if..."
And that "if only" comes back to the Captain exercising command overview, rather than getting buried in the operating mode.
Peter, I chose the AA965 example simply to illustrate that your command of BA38 that day was exemplary, and will be studied by pilots for years to come. Not necessarily for any heroics, or piloting skills, but for the subtle, professional, skilled SITUATIONAL MANAGEMENT you demonstrated.
Sir, I tip my hat to you, and wish you a productive, happy future, now that you have given yourself the opportunity to play a far larger and more important role than as "just another" Captain (not said with any disrespect).
Now you can pass on experience, perspective, and inspiration to many more people in a broader cross-section of skills development, and make a bigger (and deservedly more remunerative) contribution as a result. I am sure you will have new opportunities presented to you now ... having shifted your perspective from returning to airline Captaincy.
I have one question. Since that day, have you ever considered whether an alternate action could have been useful, i.e. after going F25, lowering the nose to gain speed, and then using ground effect to stretch the glide to the runway?
Sailplane pilots know the major increase in L/D achieved on "hangar flights" from the far end of the runway once at about a wingspan above the ground. Of course, this is way outside any airline or Boeing practice, or possibly even any study, but I wonder if you had been presented with a serious undershoot, whether you would have encouraged John to "lower the nose ...." ?
Sincere best wishes
I have just listened to your interview with Glenn Pew on AvWeb:
The Crash of BA038
Two things struck me about your interview:
1. Your command decision to leave John as PF while you took command of the situation was outstanding, and clearly led to the next decision which saved a worse outcome.
2. Your command decision, devoid of any procedural or sim justification, to go F25 has been vindicated as resulting in a far better outcome than hitting the ILS antenna.
Your description of your 6 secs of aircraft checks that led to the decision to go F25 demonstrates true Command skill. You gave yourself thinking time from a broader perspective.
Reading that, my thoughts turned to AA965 on 20Dec1995; the B757 that hit terrain at night after a botched approach to Cali, Columbia. Although the FO, who was PF and equally as experienced on the B757 as the Capt, the report stated "Although the accident flightcrew articulated misgivings several times during the approach, neither pilot displayed the objectivity necessary to recognize that they had lost situation awareness and effective CRM."
Interpreted, this suggests the Capt failed to look at the whole situation and recognise the flight as having departed a whole set of criteria required to continue the approach. Once the GPWS sounded and the FO executed the escape manoeuvre, he appears not to have done what you did in scanning and ensuring the aircraft configuration was optimal. He missed the air brakes still being extended. The aircraft impacted 250 feet below the top of the ridge. As with the AAIB, the report could not speculate on the outcome had they been retracted in time, other than to say "Because the B-757 flight simulators could not be back driven during the tests, it could not be determined with precision whether the airplane would have missed the mountain/tree tops if the speedbrakes had been retracted during the escape attempt." We are all left to guess that outcome. It is one of multiple events during their approach where "if only if..."
And that "if only" comes back to the Captain exercising command overview, rather than getting buried in the operating mode.
Peter, I chose the AA965 example simply to illustrate that your command of BA38 that day was exemplary, and will be studied by pilots for years to come. Not necessarily for any heroics, or piloting skills, but for the subtle, professional, skilled SITUATIONAL MANAGEMENT you demonstrated.
Sir, I tip my hat to you, and wish you a productive, happy future, now that you have given yourself the opportunity to play a far larger and more important role than as "just another" Captain (not said with any disrespect).
Now you can pass on experience, perspective, and inspiration to many more people in a broader cross-section of skills development, and make a bigger (and deservedly more remunerative) contribution as a result. I am sure you will have new opportunities presented to you now ... having shifted your perspective from returning to airline Captaincy.
I have one question. Since that day, have you ever considered whether an alternate action could have been useful, i.e. after going F25, lowering the nose to gain speed, and then using ground effect to stretch the glide to the runway?
Sailplane pilots know the major increase in L/D achieved on "hangar flights" from the far end of the runway once at about a wingspan above the ground. Of course, this is way outside any airline or Boeing practice, or possibly even any study, but I wonder if you had been presented with a serious undershoot, whether you would have encouraged John to "lower the nose ...." ?
Sincere best wishes
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't think anyone has posted this. Peter's words don't put certain elements of BA in a very favorable light.
Quite a difference in hearing it from him rather than reading his reports of the aftermath.
http://www.avweb.com/podcast/files/2...hCaptain-B.mp3
I hope these links work?
Quite a difference in hearing it from him rather than reading his reports of the aftermath.
http://www.avweb.com/podcast/files/2...hCaptain-B.mp3
I hope these links work?
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 60
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peter,
Why would you give a rats ____ what the CC are/were saying. Basically I can imagine that the average CC gossip exchange is similar to a bunch of extras around the tea urn on location for the filiming of "Priscilla Queen of the Desert".
I'm probably too politically incorrect to work for a company like BA, but if I did, in your situation I would have been tempted to gather for a pre-flight brief, look them straight in the eye and tell them that if they had any problems flying with you, they should take a sickie.....maybe have the FO standing on your shoulder to emphasise that if he is happy to fly with you, so should they be.
Having brought you down with their childish back biting and juicy rumour mongering, behaviour that they should have left behind in primary six, they are now busy trying to bring down the airline and who would blame you if you were savouring the managements discomfort at this moment......
Wonder how long this will stay up before I receive CC hate mail
or before it is 
by a CC mod with a thin skin...
Good luck to you Peter, I hope it works out in the end for you..
Best
Rmac
Why would you give a rats ____ what the CC are/were saying. Basically I can imagine that the average CC gossip exchange is similar to a bunch of extras around the tea urn on location for the filiming of "Priscilla Queen of the Desert".
I'm probably too politically incorrect to work for a company like BA, but if I did, in your situation I would have been tempted to gather for a pre-flight brief, look them straight in the eye and tell them that if they had any problems flying with you, they should take a sickie.....maybe have the FO standing on your shoulder to emphasise that if he is happy to fly with you, so should they be.
Having brought you down with their childish back biting and juicy rumour mongering, behaviour that they should have left behind in primary six, they are now busy trying to bring down the airline and who would blame you if you were savouring the managements discomfort at this moment......
Wonder how long this will stay up before I receive CC hate mail
or before it is by a CC mod with a thin skin...Good luck to you Peter, I hope it works out in the end for you..
Best
Rmac
Controversial, moi?
....with hundreds of fault messages on the screen...
1. Your command decision to leave John as PF while you took command of the situation was outstanding, and clearly led to the next decision which saved a worse outcome.
I totally agree with you and I hope Pete gets his job back with BA soon.