Knackered Nigel

Baron Rouge,

What other options to following a 3 degree glide 30 seconds out over London with little power from the engines, were there?

Shallow the path, the speed decays even more quickly, increase rate of descent and you end up in Hatton Cross.

I take it you are not familiar with the LHR 27L undershoot.

Why am I bothering to reply to your post anyway.....

Is this really a Professional Pilots Forum? It seems to be armchair assassination of supposed colleagues. I despair and will now flounce off here for a while..

atakacs

Just to clarify something I might have missed reading the report and the 3000+ messages here (yes): there is a clear understanding that flap 25 vs 30 was beneficial. Is there any further official analysis (be it manufacturer, AAIB, etc) of what could have been achieved in those circumstances ?

I'm also somewhat surprised by the little mention in this discussion of what I believe to be the main factor in the relative benign consequences of this accident, namely luck...

atakacs

Again given the circumstances (completely unexpected - and to be frank still unexplained - failure, very little time to react, no specific training) I would say that the outcome was the result of sheer luck. In my view the flap reduction was mostly instinctive (good call btw) and they where spectators of a once in a lifetime event. Don’t think anyone could fault them with anything but on the other hand I don’t see exceptional airmanship either. At best job well done – it’s a sad testimony of the state of the industry if this deserve such high praise.

I respectfully have some concerns about the apparent taboo discussing actual facts and figures – if available – about what was the best possible outcome. If nothing else this might be helpful should this unlikely black swan show it’s ugly head again…

Landroger

And while the big boys squabble about the unarguable, the elephant in the living room is being ignored. For the most part and with a few, notable exceptions, the discussion as to why two, high bypass fan jets with enviable reliability records, mounted in the same world class aeroplane with an enviable safety record, suddenly decided not play in BA038's garden - probably.

Roger. (Puzzled of south London)

atakacs

good point. I'm afraid this will stay a mystery for the foreseeable future

Flatspin_Fumble

Barbiesboyfriend,

you presented your case very well, and for what it's worth, I think you are spot on with your comments, but what do I know
- not a lot some would say, but I assure you a lot more than most.

I am surprised you have not made a contribution to the Cabin Crew Forum regarding the BA Ballot, but perhaps like me, you feel there is no point. Their union's cause is wasted. Their case has no substance and is complete and utter tosh. I have not met one single member of the travelling First and Clubworld public, who has any sympathy, whatsoever. It will be interesting to see what next week brings.

bearfoil

Landroger

You are not alone. "Wait for the Final Report". Ad Nauseum. My reply then, as now, WHY? "We'll just snip off these little tubes a little shorter, right, then, done. Oh, and if they roll back (THEY, mind), throttle up, better still, throttle up every once in a while just to keep the oil hot so's to melt the mystery away in the name of safety. In other words, the fix we ordered doesn't (may not) work as advertised when it is critical, like, when the oil is cool in descent or high cruise." The identified (Boeing) problem for the Trent, the lack of spill (!) and the lack of any heating or cavitation bypass isn't important enough, and it certainly isn't the Fuel. How could it be the Fuel? All that's ordered (?) is some "research". "Simultaneous binary engine failure in ETOPS?" IMPOSSIBLE. Except for the two times it's happened?

LASHUP.

bear, not impressed

woodpecker

Knackered Nigel, I think you have got it totally wrong. Personally having flown into LHR for 35 years, the last 6 on the B777, I feel if they had thrown the glidepath away and held onto the speed there is now way they would have got any where near Hatton Cross. They would have had the speed, all be it with a high rate of descent, to complete the flare but would it have been on a level surface? Most certainly not!

infrequentflyer789

Three, recently, that I can think of (discounting those who went in for gliding practice by runing out of fuel).

BA38, and two birdies (Sully and FR at Rome - either of those could have gone very wrong had captain not taken charge and taken unconventional decisions, breaking SOPs etc.). Have I missed any ?

Note that N862DA rolled back like BA38, but only one engine. It was not "simultaneous binary engine failure".

To me, the birds are the bigger problem.

• We know the exact cause (have the smoking gun / remains)
• Incidents not type specific (bird or plane).
• Larger number of (dual engine loss in twin) incidents
• BA38 rollbacks have a recovery procedure (if you have the height) - wheras the best engineer in the world isn't going to get sully's engines going again.
• BA38 rollback could occur anywhere (N862DA at cruise) - birdies are most likely when you are low in critical flight phase

There's an engineering improvement (I won't say "fix" since there is only a probable cause not a proven, or reproducible, one to test against) for BA38 - engineered to make the plubming more robust to ice/slush blockage.

Where's the fix / improvement for the birds ? <deafening silence>
Is there even any research been recommened (like for BA38) ?
Doesn't anyone find that (more) worrying ?

xcxpx

I think it was great work by both Peter and John, saved a lot of lives that day...

lomapaseo

The recommendations haven't been published yet.

Just what did you have in mind?

something practical I trust.

It's a little bit like designing over-run areas at the ends of runways ... just how far beyond the airport property should they extend?

How needed are they compared to other places to put your research effort like pilot training, enhanced ground proximity systems, etec. etc.

Mmmayday38

xcxpx;

I notice you've been an observer Pprune for a while now, and I appreciate your first post.

Brian Abraham

Have only been dipping in and out of this thread so not aware if this has been noted. Came across it accidentally while looking for other info. Seems like a lot of water called out in (c). Interesting how this after all these years of turbine high altitude operations an apparent curve ball brings an aircraft undone. BZ Peter, John and crew.

FAR § 25.951 General.

(a) Each fuel system must be constructed and arranged to ensure a flow of fuel at a rate and pressure established for proper engine and auxiliary power unit functioning under each likely operating condition, including any maneuver for which certification is requested and during which the engine or auxiliary power unit is permitted to be in operation.

(b) Each fuel system must be arranged so that any air which is introduced into the system will not result in—

(1) Power interruption for more than 20 seconds for reciprocating engines; or

(2) Flameout for turbine engines.

(c) Each fuel system for a turbine engine must be capable of sustained operation throughout its flow and pressure range with fuel initially saturated with water at 80 °F and having 0.75cc of free water per gallon added and cooled to the most critical condition for icing likely to be encountered in operation.

(d) Each fuel system for a turbine engine powered airplane must meet the applicable fuel venting requirements of part 34 of this chapter.

MATELO

So, you reckon it was luck, but still compliment the crew on their "instinctive" reactions?? Is that really luck or years of experience making a good call.

Also, yes a job well done worthy of such high praise, if according to you there was little time to react and no specific training.

Cant have it both ways

atakacs

Well I guess nobody can claim that luck wasn't the biggest factor on that day. Everybody involved was extremely fortunate to walk off this one.

In my book there is a difference between a job well done and sheer brilliance. At this stage I don't see any evidence of the latter but I would be the first to change my mind should I come across any hard evidence.

Global Warrior

Every passenger on board that plane had a ticket stating the destination was LHR. The boys in the front got them to LHR!!! Awesome job. Well done.

GW

MathFox

Yeah, let's blame BAA for not providing busses quick enough so that passengers could connect to their scheduled flights. And for the late luggage delivery!

Whiskey Papa

It's funny isn't it? The more you train and the more experience you accumulate, the luckier you get!


WP

TIMA9X

by atakacs
I don't know what book you are reading, but with respect you are rather harsh with your post and possibly setting the standard a little too high.
In Ba 038's case are you implying you could do it better? If so what would you have done to make it "sheer brilliance."

Hell what have I done, I have started the flap settings guys, the when the AP should have been switched off guys, the angle of attack guys, and the why did PB let the FO keep flying the AC salivating! I don't know how many times on this thread all of this kind of stuff has been discussed, even by the PIC himself.

Many pilots with thousands of hours flying the heavies have deserted this thread because I am sure they are simply fed up with this rather repetitive style of posts.

I will always maintain that what they did in the time they had was "sheer brilliance." We are down to the low depths of semantics between the words "sheer brilliance" and "a job well done," for me it is all the same, everyone survived that day! Can't we just leave it, and possibly look at some other interesting threads which still don't have answers? PpruNe is full of them.

Again atakacs I write this with my understanding of the word respect.
Tima9x

Global Warrior

Well im not sure the BAA are negligent for that.......... more for not building a remote stand at the threshold of of 27L as a result of recent airport expansion. I think the DOT's involvement in placing Hatton Cross Tube Station where they have is highly contentious and its typical in situations like this that something as innocuous as an ILS antenna is vying for publicity. Im sure the most famous ILS antenna on the planet is currently in talks with Max Clifford to sell its side of the Story.