Ryanair Taxi incident Carcassonne

[rubik101]

Pray tell me, what is friendly about spurious and unfounded allegations, smears, innuendo, utter fiction and made up lies when referring to your fellow 'professionals'? So, will you now refer me to the reliable and verifiable source where you found the statistics about Ryanairs' reliability, or lack of it?

I thought not.

So, with reference to Quick Turn Round Times, a reliable and certified source I think you will agree;

737-800/CFM56-7B26
JAA/JAROPS
Category C Brakes
Page P1.12.12

I will not reproduce the whole page but suffice to say that unless you land a B737-800 at 65.000kg (close to MLW) at +30C or more at an airfield above 3000' with no reverse, a tailwind, no Auto Brake and Max Manual Brakes from touch down speed, you will need around 30 minutes of brake cooling time.

As 99% of Ryanair landings are at around a max of 62.000kg, temps closer to 25C, at fields less than 1000' with two reversers, and auto brake selected, the cooling time will rarely be more than 10 minutes.

So get off the bandwagon slagging the operation and expressing disbelief that 25 minute turn arounds are somehow either illegal or impossible because that is very evidently not the case!

I am rude because a lot of posters write well crafted lies, inuendo, slander, rubbish, made up rumours, ill found 'facts', so called 'reports' and all the time they are smiling as they stick the needle in any airline, poster, theory that they don't want to agree with. It is an obsession with some of them!

Every time you ask these idiots for a reference or source they suddenly go on holiday and/or stop posting.

When they, and they know who they are, stop writing their drivel here, the better the PPRUNE site will be for the professional pilots it is intended to serve.

[slip and turn]

Before people launch into more uninformed speculation - could we please leave it to the 73-drivers to comment on specific operational procedures and problems and leave the general comments to everyone else?

No let's not. Let's all have a chance to learn. Just because you deploy reversers doesn't mean you always avoid braking hard now does it? I remember thinking just the other day "well why did he bother with the reversers?" because by the time they were selected we were already considerably and noticeable slowed by application of either your autobrakes or some LHS pre-emptory plates of meat and it was time to put them away again. And I am sure we are all familiar with the various tunes varying from baritone down to a graunchy double bass sometimes played on the brakes in your fleet so they do noticeably get used a bit, eh?

So I think questions about the mythical long lost 53 minutes are fair dinkum for a general audience, don't you?

It very much sounds like there's a whole lot more written in the manual about brake cooling turnaround times than there was in 2001 ... care to share the highlights of the last 7 years of quick turnaround experience on the subject or is it selected customers only stuff?

Edit: Ah you pre-empted me captain! Thanks rubik101 for updating us with some examples so we the uninformed, can now begin to see the state of their art.

[Empty Cruise]

s&t,

Of course the use of 2 engine reverse doesn't preclude hard braking - but that doen't have anything to do with whether a 25-min. turn-around is feasible from a brake-cooling point of view.

If you land early - you have more time for brake cooling. If you land at TSF (where use of reverse is banned except for safety reasons anyway) where they never manage to turn an aircraft in less than 35 min. anyway, you have more time for brake cooling. But that doesn't mean that we cannot operate the aircraft in such a way that a 25 min. turn-around is both legal and safe - if we need 25 min., we pile on the reverse and let the A/B do its job so we know exactly where we stand from a brake energy point of view.

I agree that planning for A/B 2 and 2 engine reverse - only to disconnect the A/B at 100 kt. and apply agressive manual braking - doen't solve a thing. But implying that it's the LHS guy doing it every time is a bit misguided. Had a 40 min. turn-around because the FO decided he wanted to impress me by making the exit.

Anyhow, that problem has been adressed with a new SOP - that only the captain disconnects the A/B, and does it by lowering the S/B. This should ensure consitent brake application - no-one is keen on lowering the S/B too early, so if followed, this SOP should make it more or less fail-safe.

In other words - you're barking up the wrong tree. Brake cooling is not an issue, provided aircraft is operated correctly - end of story!

[javelin]

I only asked a simple question......................................

[slip and turn]

You did indeed, javelin , but it was the sucking of teeth that put everyone on edge.

Yes of course I am barking Empty Cruise . It was not my intention to question legalities, merely to explore Real Slim's astounding 17 minute number by comparing it with what I have even timed several times for the hell of it . Now you may well be thinking what on earth has he been timing it for? I'd say well what else do you do when standing freezing your butt off waiting for the cage door to open letting us poor unwashed loose onto the apron? I also half-remembered some JAA critical turnaround number many moons ago and coughed it up ... sorry!

Anyway, look where it took us - onwards and upwards - all the way to some pages in a manual that some of us onlookers didn't know had been written yet

Anyway, just for javelin, and since I'm at least part responsible for the drift well away from the original subject which I think was inadvertent winglet-bashing, with a trip through turnaround times, on to cooler-than-your-average brake SOPs, and finally to a healthy perusal of the manual, you'all perhaps will forgive me that in an attempt to find something to steer the thread back on track before we get out and push it, I flicked to the turn radius pages in the manuals ... now there's something Sloe Moe might go for ... wheels within wheels and all that ... quite impressive what dimes/sixpences you can turn on if you know how, eh? Oh, and what not to attempt is in there too .

So, may we conclude that the lines on any self-respecting FR-serving apron (or failing that, the lines in any FR-pilot's mind's eye) need to be painted with due regard to the extremes shown in turn radius section of the manual, but with an extra 7.3 metres added for luck

Maybe I was wrong - much of this operations apron logistics support planning stuff is barely worth getting up from the desk. Give me Google and give me AutoCAD Lite - what more could an ops planner desire?

[captplaystation]

Marshalling at CCF is the worst I have seen in 19 years as Capt.
May have had cack-all to do with this but there it stands.
Oh and for god sakes don't let them fuel you unsupervised, not if you want to respect the 457kg inbalance limit anyway.
Nice place though if you get off.

[stator vane]

huh?

what was this thread about anyway?

after all these pages, i can't remember---

honestly, if a 737 driver can't keep from hitting a building, he/she should give it up--this is not a 747--

if one leans forward enough to have both eyes clearly on the wing tip, the bi-focal ability should give a good depth perception.

i get no closer to the building than i choose. forget the ground marshaller's desires.

perhaps not politically correct but realistic.

and captainplay, we know you are slightly biased toward the french!!! ha.

good to hear from you again---

[VAFFPAX]

Firstly BHD, aka Belfast harbour, George best airport and the passenger who lost his CD player, ITS VERY SHORT! In fact I should imagine its pretty much on the limits of a 737,the aircraft needs to be put on the runway asap, why don’t you fly next time with BMI on their A319,im sure you will have the same experience!

I can second LGW warrior here. BHD is VERY short. Even FlyBE with their cute little turbo-prop Q400's have to lash on the brakes (although their new carbon fibre brakes - or so the pilot explained at the time - made the landing slightly unpleasant once).

But hey, that's what that lovely invention called a SEAT BELT is for. That's why the lovely c/c ask you to kindly put it on and leave it on, so that you DON'T go crashing into the seat in front of you.

S.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Slip and Turn

It was not my intention to question legalities, merely to explore Real Slim's astounding 17 minute number by comparing it with what I have even timed several times for the hell of it . Now you may well be thinking what on earth has he been timing it for? I'd say well what else do you do when standing freezing your butt off waiting for the cage door to open letting us poor unwashed loose onto the apron?

OK Slip, first off the airplane was reasonably light when we landed, Flap 40, A/B 3, full reverse. Temp well below ISA and a headwind. Brake cooling schedule wasn't a problem, somewhere in the region of 14.5 minutes. We didn't need fuel, and had the flightdeck ready for the next sector by the time the pax were off.

FO did the walk round, by the time he had finished the next pax were getting on and 17 minutes after we arrived on stand we were closed up, cleared to start ready to go.

Why do I time it? When we arrive on stand I start the stop watch to keep track of how our turn round is progressing: if the handling staff are being slow I can encourage them to get a stroke on so that we can make our slot or scheduled departure. It's called managing the operation: that's why some of us are Captains and some of you aren't.

I have also managed 12 minutes with 100 pax courtesy of Germanwings handling at CGN: but then they are German and do everything efficiently

[slip and turn]

Well I have never timed less than 8 minutes from first passenger off to first passenger on, so even with half a load, 12 minutes from open up to close up must be some kind of record, captain ...

So what's latest on this Carcassonne building clip? Did it vraiment donner un coup to the terminal building? The photo near the beginning of the thread indicates le clip/coup was on Captain's side? Was he measuring the turn on his stopwatch? Was the manoeuvre vraiment subject to some kind of guidance by marshallers? Was the aircraft vraiment straddling two parking bays and under threat of a surcharge? Or was that petit suggestion par M. keskildi on page 1 vraiment un peu d'humour français?

Edit: It seems that the CCF staff aren't seeing the funny side of anything right now ... on strike yesterday and again today (27-May)?? : "Ryanair sincerely regrets that due to last minute strike action by Carcassone Airport staff ... bla bla"

[OutOfRunWay]

Brake cooling

Do the 737s not have brake temp indication?

As you can see I know squat about 737s

Regards OORW

[The Real Slim Shady]

Here we go slip, from my notebook: SXF Sep 07 - in with 189 at XX26 out at XX49 with approx 186, 23 minute turn round. NOC in Jan 08 in at xx22 out at xx38, but we only had around 110 each way and we didn't need fuel ( and before you ask it was 12.5 minutes for the brake cooling advisory ). LDY in Dec 07, in at xx18 out at xx33, 15 mins ( still inside the advisory cooling time ), load of around 80 in and 60 out, no refuel.

Then again there have been the howlers due to slots, but a QTR is not so difficult

[slip and turn]

OORW , I think I read in the manual that there is some brake temperature monitoring option but alternatively Boeing recommend some whizzo hand held individual brake plate temperature probing in the tenth, eleventh, twelfth, thirteenth or fourteenth minutes after landing. Anything measured outside those minutes doesn't count

I am sure Real Slim can tell you about it, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he could factor it in and still achieve a QTR

Real Slim , I think you must be RYR's top man, certainly one that vraiment avez tous à votre fingertips, even the real data on the 'been there done that' anecdotes

You sound very much like the type of captain I like to think I might have up front when things become challenging

[JW411]

I find it quite fascinating that Ryanair scraping a winglet (for whatever reason) can generate six whole pages on pprune which is about the same as Connie totalling a 747F at BRU in spectacular fashion (for whatever reason).

Kalitta have obviously got something to learn when it comes to getting the attention of ppruners!

[The Real Slim Shady]

Slip

You are too generous with your " praise "

I simply make a note at planning of all of the sector timings, flt number, F/O, estimated ZFW based on Planned TOB, min ramp fuel.planned burn and then note the actuals as a comparison / cross check.

I have lots of these little notebooks: 2 Euros each from Rhodia.