Ryanair on grass in Poland - Taxi incident
Junior trash
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As a matter of interest is it unacceptable to cross these white lines as well? (This is a genuine question - I'm not saying that it definitely is!) http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...04957&t=k&z=18
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Incredible how some people here are turning everything into a never ending discussion about who is in the better airline etc etc.
I'm trying to learn something out of this!
Seven pages but so far almost nothing usefull about runway markings for example.
Can you taxi onto chevron markings for example to turn the aircraft around?
I'm trying to learn something out of this!
Seven pages but so far almost nothing usefull about runway markings for example.
Can you taxi onto chevron markings for example to turn the aircraft around?
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They went PAST THE END OF THE RWY. They crossed the white lines. This is something that cannot be defended so all this crap about good airmanship is garabage. They f**ked up...simple as that. And its something those idiot training captains must be pushing at FR because you see it all the time. I wonder how many squashed runway end lights are out there because of FR pilots.
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EMAS
"An Engineered Materials Arresting System (EMAS) uses materials of closely controlled strength and density placed at the end of a runway to stop or greatly slow an aircraft that overruns the runway. The best material found to date is a lightweight, crushable concrete. When an aircraft rolls into an EMAS arrestor bed, the tires of the aircraft sink into the lightweight concrete and the aircraft is decelerated by having to roll through the material."
Why didn't he sink through the surface the moment he entered the EMAS area? What good is an EMAS area if it has the bearing strenght to carry a loaded 738? The main wheels didn't sink through at all?
Why didn't he sink through the surface the moment he entered the EMAS area? What good is an EMAS area if it has the bearing strenght to carry a loaded 738? The main wheels didn't sink through at all?
If we all looked to the source material everytime we had a question about anything related to rules or technical issues half the threads on Pprune would become redundant.
The ghost is spot on. 7 pages of people b1tching about Ryanair and no real discussion of what happened, apart from 'they
up' because they tried to turn around in a sandpit.
IMHO that sandpit looks suspiciously like a Runway Slip or RESA, so they might have justifiable expected it to be graded. On the other hand, neither of those are intended for the use by aircraft in the normal course of events, so I can't help but wonder what they thought they were doing.
The ghost is spot on. 7 pages of people b1tching about Ryanair and no real discussion of what happened, apart from 'they
up' because they tried to turn around in a sandpit. IMHO that sandpit looks suspiciously like a Runway Slip or RESA, so they might have justifiable expected it to be graded. On the other hand, neither of those are intended for the use by aircraft in the normal course of events, so I can't help but wonder what they thought they were doing.
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00seven and the like,
Instead of shouting "they went over the white lines", get your noses into the books and learn standard ICAO runway markings and signs.
Wannabe's have other forums to play in by the way. (general remark)
If the crew thought that this EMAS (never even heard of this term before I have to confess) was concrete, there was no indication that the area was not a "load bearing surface". Chevron markings, taxi side-stripes (yellow) or crosses should be used to make clear that this area is not part of the manoeuvre area.
A steady white line does not per definition mean that you can't cross it. Just look at the displaced thresholds at Heathrow (09R for example).
If you do not have your ICAO Annexes at hand, you might also find this info in your Jeppessen Student Route Manual if you still have one, in your company documentation or even on...the internet.
Can someone post here some example images (I am a computer analphabet and have no clue how
) that might "enlight" us aviators in the dark?!
We might then actually learn something from reading these pages... (god forbid)
Despegue
Instead of shouting "they went over the white lines", get your noses into the books and learn standard ICAO runway markings and signs.
Wannabe's have other forums to play in by the way. (general remark)
If the crew thought that this EMAS (never even heard of this term before I have to confess) was concrete, there was no indication that the area was not a "load bearing surface". Chevron markings, taxi side-stripes (yellow) or crosses should be used to make clear that this area is not part of the manoeuvre area.
A steady white line does not per definition mean that you can't cross it. Just look at the displaced thresholds at Heathrow (09R for example).
If you do not have your ICAO Annexes at hand, you might also find this info in your Jeppessen Student Route Manual if you still have one, in your company documentation or even on...the internet.
Can someone post here some example images (I am a computer analphabet and have no clue how
) that might "enlight" us aviators in the dark?!We might then actually learn something from reading these pages... (god forbid)
Despegue
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Guys, has no-one ever had the situation where he's thought "if only I could have those ten seconds again"? We've all made errors of judgement and, thankfully, most of us have gotten away with them. These pilots have presumably had a few days suspended without pay, and are now having to face "trial by prune". Could I ask the pilots to reflect how they would like their fellows to comment if ever their error becomes public, and at the same time ask the others on this tread to log off and go play with Flightsim. You can f*ck up all you like there and no-one will be any the wiser.
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What went through these guys minds and their thoughts are only known by them and there but for the grace of god go I.
However as Crewcostundercontrol points out the corperate culture and pressure put upon pilots in Ryanair is a disgrace. It is only a matter of time before something serious happens in this company.
However as Crewcostundercontrol points out the corperate culture and pressure put upon pilots in Ryanair is a disgrace. It is only a matter of time before something serious happens in this company.
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The Problem with PPRUNE
The above bitching is an example of what really disappoints me with PPRUNE and many pilots found posting here. Guys have a little self respect and some consideration for others when posting.
Congrats to all who have showed their professionalism through their contributions, it really is a shame that you have to endure the plethora of
"characters" on display here.
On with the debate.
Congrats to all who have showed their professionalism through their contributions, it really is a shame that you have to endure the plethora of
"characters" on display here.
On with the debate.
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Question... can anyone who has contributed to this thread admit to never making an error in judgement or operation from early days to the present? Whilst it appears to be a negative event, in reality it gives food for thought about our disciplines. I think the lads in this incident are beating themselves up more than all those who have lambasted them on this thread.
How many will be more aware of the yellow line so one does not drag a wheel in the grass, or taxying beyond the runway's end, or even special attention whilst preparing for a landing at a short field with crappy weather?
How many will be more aware of the yellow line so one does not drag a wheel in the grass, or taxying beyond the runway's end, or even special attention whilst preparing for a landing at a short field with crappy weather?
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Pimp MR you are right, but what disappoints me most about this thread is that absolutely no-one in the whole seven pages has really made the point that this is a Ryanair airline transport operations at Lodz problem.
Now of course there is a chance that it is no such thing: it is possible that any two pilots at Lodz could have got simultaneously distracted for a moment and the classic "Oh bugger!" occurred, but it doesn't 'feel' like that's what happened.
No, what the various commentary 'feels' like is that they drove down the road into a soft patch they just didn't know was there!
The pilots themselves don't seem to be the problem. The standard of their training on type isn't the problem. I don't think it is fair to say their ability to choose the right plates and interpret them is the real problem, either. It very much seems, from reading between all these lines on seven pages, that the real problem was the airline's (lack of) on the ground knowledge of this airport. And maybe its even as bad as the airline not seeing this kind of thing as their problem but as their captain's problem, that was the real problem.
This kind of mistake could surely never happen if Ryanair ops were properly on the ball and communicating peculiar hazards like this to training captains who in turn would communicate it to those captains expected to operate the route?
Contrary to popular opinion, Ryanair isn't a fly anywhere military type operation, and its pilots are not 'fly anywhere' pilots. If they were, I have no doubt that the 'can do' current batch would be part of a relatively successful air force. But that's not the game here. Here we have a commercial airline which chooses to fly to unusual airports. Nothing wrong with that at all so long as les installations are PROPERLY checked out BY THE AIRLINE in advance, and all pertinent information is PROPERLY communicated BY THE AIRLINE to its crews in advance. No surprises. We can't, and Ryanair management can't expect Ryanair pilots to be some kind of roving DIY boghoppers anonymous personally managing the peril of every unsignposted offroad soft or wet patch in Europe that they might encounter.
Had anyone on the Ryanair ops payroll ever stood on that surface before the incident? I wonder. No need to? Oh OK. So it was 'discovered' how? Not by this event, I hope.
There is such a concept as 'due diligence'. You can't escape it in this world no matter what kind of 'can do' airline or corporate outfit you might think you are. There are simply some things you must do in peacetime ops, like check, check, and check again (if you don't mind).
Otherwise you must as an organisation expect from time to time to look worryingly daft.
Now of course there is a chance that it is no such thing: it is possible that any two pilots at Lodz could have got simultaneously distracted for a moment and the classic "Oh bugger!" occurred, but it doesn't 'feel' like that's what happened.
No, what the various commentary 'feels' like is that they drove down the road into a soft patch they just didn't know was there!
The pilots themselves don't seem to be the problem. The standard of their training on type isn't the problem. I don't think it is fair to say their ability to choose the right plates and interpret them is the real problem, either. It very much seems, from reading between all these lines on seven pages, that the real problem was the airline's (lack of) on the ground knowledge of this airport. And maybe its even as bad as the airline not seeing this kind of thing as their problem but as their captain's problem, that was the real problem.
This kind of mistake could surely never happen if Ryanair ops were properly on the ball and communicating peculiar hazards like this to training captains who in turn would communicate it to those captains expected to operate the route?
Contrary to popular opinion, Ryanair isn't a fly anywhere military type operation, and its pilots are not 'fly anywhere' pilots. If they were, I have no doubt that the 'can do' current batch would be part of a relatively successful air force. But that's not the game here. Here we have a commercial airline which chooses to fly to unusual airports. Nothing wrong with that at all so long as les installations are PROPERLY checked out BY THE AIRLINE in advance, and all pertinent information is PROPERLY communicated BY THE AIRLINE to its crews in advance. No surprises. We can't, and Ryanair management can't expect Ryanair pilots to be some kind of roving DIY boghoppers anonymous personally managing the peril of every unsignposted offroad soft or wet patch in Europe that they might encounter.
Had anyone on the Ryanair ops payroll ever stood on that surface before the incident? I wonder. No need to? Oh OK. So it was 'discovered' how? Not by this event, I hope.
There is such a concept as 'due diligence'. You can't escape it in this world no matter what kind of 'can do' airline or corporate outfit you might think you are. There are simply some things you must do in peacetime ops, like check, check, and check again (if you don't mind).
Otherwise you must as an organisation expect from time to time to look worryingly daft.
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What it boils down to is that RYR employ people that wouldn't get a job anywhere else.
Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
Most of their crews should be flying Senecas, while they are learning how to fly an aircraft properly !!
That's why I am avoiding RYR altogether.
CG
Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
Most of their crews should be flying Senecas, while they are learning how to fly an aircraft properly !!
That's why I am avoiding RYR altogether.
CG
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What it boils down to is that RYR employ people that wouldn't get a job anywhere else.
Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
Most of their crews should be flying Senecas, while they are learning how to fly an aircraft properly !!
That's why I am avoiding RYR altogether.
Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
Most of their crews should be flying Senecas, while they are learning how to fly an aircraft properly !!
That's why I am avoiding RYR altogether.
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Charterguy you are talking total rubbish.
There are pilots who failed to get job in Ryanair who are now flying for BA Virgin etc. Plenty of ex Ryanair pilots are flying for major carriers worldwide now.
What can be said is that Ryanair take pilots in desperate need of a job due either to lack of experience or unfortunate circumstances with airlines collapsing and take advantage of them. They rule by the stick not the carrot.
The problem IS NOT THE PILOTS it is the corperate structure and pressure from management.
There are pilots who failed to get job in Ryanair who are now flying for BA Virgin etc. Plenty of ex Ryanair pilots are flying for major carriers worldwide now.
What can be said is that Ryanair take pilots in desperate need of a job due either to lack of experience or unfortunate circumstances with airlines collapsing and take advantage of them. They rule by the stick not the carrot.
The problem IS NOT THE PILOTS it is the corperate structure and pressure from management.
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From a take-off performance perspective, there is never, ever, ever any reason or need to taxi past the end of the piano keys when lining up an aircraft. Its a ridiculously easy and simple rule to stick too unless its immediately obvious to the PIC that extra pavement is available beyond the threshold markers, but in this case, unless the extra pavement is clearly marked with runway edge paint which helps to identify it as being part of the physical runway pavement, I wouldnt touch it......no need to because I already know my take-off figures are safe even with a 30-40m line up allowance. Would love to know what that crew was thinking or was it not their intention to go there but for some kind of distraction ended up where they did. I hope the latter is the reason for the accident rather than the Captain looking for a few extra lousy meters for take-off. By the way, I worked for FR last year on a contract and whilst management are somewhat difficult to work with, flight deck policies and procedures are excellent IMO. The problem I saw was that In my case, not all F/O's would stick to procedure and some were tending to develop bad habbits. In general I thought the standard was excellent, especially the cadets who were quite good indeed. Keep up the good work. I miss the flying which was very challenging.
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Charterguy… a very disappointing and immature attitude towards your fellow airmen. Please tell us your opinion of pilots who work at other low cost carriers such as Wizzair, Flyglobespan, Futura, just to name a few less paid than FR? Better yet… how about other charter pilots who may earn considerably less than you flying the same equipment that you do?
Please enlighten us Charterguy… if FR crews, which are likened to monkeys, in your opinion of course, then what category of circus performer or zoo attraction do you fall into if your pay is less than others flying the same equipment that you fly?
Please enlighten us Charterguy… if FR crews, which are likened to monkeys, in your opinion of course, then what category of circus performer or zoo attraction do you fall into if your pay is less than others flying the same equipment that you fly?
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Ignorant charterguy
Is it just me but how come the likes of Charterguy can get away with insulting myself and my colleagues without reproach?
Your comments are actually outrageous.
I'm not normally bothered but really it is not acceptable because it is simply not true. Chances are I earn more than he does and I turned down a 747 command to move to Ryanair because I want to be home with my family. Plenty others like me.
From a operating point of view the training department does quite an amazing job considering the task at hand with expansion that other companies would find staggering. I've worked for some of the 'top' UK charter airlines (Britannia/Airtours etc)so maybe charterguy would accept that my experience at least allows a sensible comparison.
In fact I'm hesitant to defend any of the airlines these days because there are many aspects I don't like but charterguy is well out of order.
Is it just me but how come the likes of Charterguy can get away with insulting myself and my colleagues without reproach?
Your comments are actually outrageous.
I'm not normally bothered but really it is not acceptable because it is simply not true. Chances are I earn more than he does and I turned down a 747 command to move to Ryanair because I want to be home with my family. Plenty others like me.
From a operating point of view the training department does quite an amazing job considering the task at hand with expansion that other companies would find staggering. I've worked for some of the 'top' UK charter airlines (Britannia/Airtours etc)so maybe charterguy would accept that my experience at least allows a sensible comparison.
In fact I'm hesitant to defend any of the airlines these days because there are many aspects I don't like but charterguy is well out of order.
Last edited by Stan Woolley; 2nd May 2008 at 08:34. Reason: added the title ignorant charterguy
