Ryanair on grass in Poland - Taxi incident
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dre's mum's house
Posts: 1,432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with Stan and RadAlt.
Charterguy's statement borders on libel.
I also checked his other posts and he spends a great deal of time shouting his mouth off in the Biz jet forum; his experience in airlines is limited. Maybe a turned down chip on shoulder wannabe.
Charterguy's statement borders on libel.
I also checked his other posts and he spends a great deal of time shouting his mouth off in the Biz jet forum; his experience in airlines is limited. Maybe a turned down chip on shoulder wannabe.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Thailand
Posts: 942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Charterguy, you and your friends have less intelligence than the monkeys you descended from. Pay peanuts eh? Did you bank over £5000 last month?
You and your ilk think you know it all, in fact your ignorance outshines your idiocy.
Stable rosters, excellent pay, every night at home. No wonder FR attract so many ex long-haul Captains from flag carriers who have had enough of squatting in mouldy hotels around the world.
Some people seem to think that FR do everything differently to other airlines, they don't. They operate Boeings the Boeing way. Indeed, with the largest fleet and the most sectors of any airline in Europe, around 1000 landings a day, they would be foolish to try to operate any other way. Why does that make FR inferior to any other airline? Beats me!
Riding on to an unmarked pavement area at an unfamiliar airport seems a trivial error when compared to what has happened in other airlines in the past. Jumping on the FR bashing bandwagon seems the most popular pastime for some of the posters here, how sad is that?
You and your ilk think you know it all, in fact your ignorance outshines your idiocy.
Stable rosters, excellent pay, every night at home. No wonder FR attract so many ex long-haul Captains from flag carriers who have had enough of squatting in mouldy hotels around the world.
Some people seem to think that FR do everything differently to other airlines, they don't. They operate Boeings the Boeing way. Indeed, with the largest fleet and the most sectors of any airline in Europe, around 1000 landings a day, they would be foolish to try to operate any other way. Why does that make FR inferior to any other airline? Beats me!
Riding on to an unmarked pavement area at an unfamiliar airport seems a trivial error when compared to what has happened in other airlines in the past. Jumping on the FR bashing bandwagon seems the most popular pastime for some of the posters here, how sad is that?
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gatwick
Age: 58
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
charterguy,you talk rubbish.
As mentioned earlier,there are a lot of ex charter/flag carrier pilots operating for Ryanair,and yes,they chose to be there!there are also lots and lots of ex ryanair pilots flying in the majors, BA,Virgin,Monarch,First choice thomson.... to name but a few.
I have nothing but respect for these guys,they fly challenging schedules into some very challenging airports,under a very challenging managment structure!
Now i dont know about your 'bucket and spade' lot,but Ryan operate a fleet of nearly 200 aircraft with around a 1000 flight's a day!! thats a lot,i should imagine a lot more than your outfit.
You also have to remember that with such a vast network these guys may fly to Lodz once every couple of months,if that,so unlike charter ops,who have a more limited schedule and maybe fly to same place 3 times a week and could probably recite the jeppy chart in there sleep,every time they make an approach its almost like going there for the first time so local knowledge is limited.
saying that,a mistake did happen,but charterguy,as mentioned around page 2 of this thread,the captain of this aircraft was a highly experienced ex flag carrier/mainline operator,maybe he even has more experience than you on Senecas!
so come on charterguy,we all wait with baited breath to hear your replys............
lgw
As mentioned earlier,there are a lot of ex charter/flag carrier pilots operating for Ryanair,and yes,they chose to be there!there are also lots and lots of ex ryanair pilots flying in the majors, BA,Virgin,Monarch,First choice thomson.... to name but a few.
I have nothing but respect for these guys,they fly challenging schedules into some very challenging airports,under a very challenging managment structure!
Now i dont know about your 'bucket and spade' lot,but Ryan operate a fleet of nearly 200 aircraft with around a 1000 flight's a day!! thats a lot,i should imagine a lot more than your outfit.
You also have to remember that with such a vast network these guys may fly to Lodz once every couple of months,if that,so unlike charter ops,who have a more limited schedule and maybe fly to same place 3 times a week and could probably recite the jeppy chart in there sleep,every time they make an approach its almost like going there for the first time so local knowledge is limited.
saying that,a mistake did happen,but charterguy,as mentioned around page 2 of this thread,the captain of this aircraft was a highly experienced ex flag carrier/mainline operator,maybe he even has more experience than you on Senecas!
so come on charterguy,we all wait with baited breath to hear your replys............
lgw
Last edited by lgw_warrior; 2nd May 2008 at 09:14. Reason: change
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: hertfordshire
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aerostar, I have to disagree with you there my friend, I fly from Luton and a full length departure requires you to cross the piano keys on to the turning pan. It is marked out and lighted correctly.
IMO poor airfield briefs exasperate the situation, I have a book where I write down the peculiarities.
IMO poor airfield briefs exasperate the situation, I have a book where I write down the peculiarities.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: very close to STN!!
Posts: 523
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
relax will you?
two possibilities--
charterguy was taking the mick--and is enjoying the reaction he has evoked from other posters--
charterguy was serious---
either way, the best response is to simply ignore his comment.
chill---
my take on the event, simply, i wouldn't take the aircraft onto an unmarked surface personally. but there's no need to crucify him either.
the best thing to do with an aircraft mistake, mine or someone else's, is study just enough to learn from it and then put it behind you--
we all have done some stupid things.
as for my take on the young captains at ryanair (i work there but am not a young one by any means)--congratulations. as long as they keep listening and learning, they'll be even better later on.
charterguy was taking the mick--and is enjoying the reaction he has evoked from other posters--
charterguy was serious---
either way, the best response is to simply ignore his comment.
chill---
my take on the event, simply, i wouldn't take the aircraft onto an unmarked surface personally. but there's no need to crucify him either.
the best thing to do with an aircraft mistake, mine or someone else's, is study just enough to learn from it and then put it behind you--
we all have done some stupid things.
as for my take on the young captains at ryanair (i work there but am not a young one by any means)--congratulations. as long as they keep listening and learning, they'll be even better later on.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: aust
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Eagerbeaver,
That is what I mean when I say that it has to be properly marked out and obvious to the PIC that the area is useable. I recall flying into Leeds from memory (correct me if i'm wrong) but there I regularly went past the piano keys to get extra usable runway in front of me. But it was clearly marked and obviously useable. Perhaps I'm thinking of another airport, but its one of those UK ports FR flew into from DUB. That is where I was based. I met a lot of very experienced dudes in FR and to suggest that they could not get jobs at flag carriers is wrong in the extreme!
600
That is what I mean when I say that it has to be properly marked out and obvious to the PIC that the area is useable. I recall flying into Leeds from memory (correct me if i'm wrong) but there I regularly went past the piano keys to get extra usable runway in front of me. But it was clearly marked and obviously useable. Perhaps I'm thinking of another airport, but its one of those UK ports FR flew into from DUB. That is where I was based. I met a lot of very experienced dudes in FR and to suggest that they could not get jobs at flag carriers is wrong in the extreme!
600
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry stator but I disagree. Occasionally yes but I'm just fed up ignoring it all the time.
If I insult an individual it's unacceptable but it seems to be fine to insult a group of individuals who are easily recognised?
It's just that unchallenged posts like that breed more of the same and I think that at some point it starts to matter.
If I insult an individual it's unacceptable but it seems to be fine to insult a group of individuals who are easily recognised?
It's just that unchallenged posts like that breed more of the same and I think that at some point it starts to matter.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Nirvana..HAHA..just kidding but,if you can tell me where it is!
Posts: 350
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having been involved myself at Luton, March 1991, B767, I have the following advice to anyone else who finds themselves "off road". Shut down the engines asap, especially if you have a low wing situation. Our pod was resting on the ground.
Also, and most important of all, keep your head down as the pax, press helicopters, You tube/Pprune paparazzi et al, try to video you in the flight deck!
So much for Nigel's Patio! I think it was on special offer from MFI Garden Depot!
Also, and most important of all, keep your head down as the pax, press helicopters, You tube/Pprune paparazzi et al, try to video you in the flight deck!
So much for Nigel's Patio! I think it was on special offer from MFI Garden Depot!
A summary, then. The aircraft became bogged whilst taxiing off the runway. The pilot taxiing either:
Given some of the responses in this thread about markings:
... I wouldn't be surprised if (4) was the most correct answer.
- Deliberately taxied off the hard surface. Almost impossible to believe.
- Was distracted (along with the second pilot) to the extent that neither was looking out the window as they approached the end of the runway. Possible, but unlikely when you are appoaching a 180 degree turn.
- Had an obscured view due to conditions of the time (e.g. glare) If the view approaching a 180 turn was that obscred, they should have stopped.
- Knew their ICAO airport markings, and believed that they were taxiing towards a permanently displaced threshold, allowing them to cross the threshold and turn beyond it. As the runway is correctly marked, this error would be one of having such a strong mental model that the imagination "drew in" the missing lines. This is possible if, say, the runway they use most often is in this configuration and they were compacent (perhaps through fatigue.)
- Didn't know their ICAO markings, and thus saw the correct picture out the window, but didn't understand that they were taxiing onto a suface not capable of supporting the aircraft. An error in professionalism? Perhaps better training? Perhaps better markings? Perhaps a change in the ICAO standard?
Given some of the responses in this thread about markings:
Looking at the video the aircraft was on the turning pad at the end of the runway.
but it also looks like a stopway...which of course you CAN taxi on.
When the portion of the runway is intended to be maintained as a stopway, chevron markings should be in place. This is also the same with EMAS. There should be yellow chevron.
I expect an area to be marked off if i can't taxi on it.
here was no indication that the area was not a "load bearing surface". Chevron markings, taxi side-stripes (yellow) or crosses should be used to make clear that this area is not part of the manoeuvre area.
A steady white line does not per definition mean that you can't cross it.
A steady white line does not per definition mean that you can't cross it.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Up there somewhere
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally with respect to everyone I believe that we should all pipe down including me on the pro's and cons of this unfortunate incident and await the official report on this as the crew I think are aware of this thread.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: In front of the desktop
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like I said...JAR and ICAO compliance...bring it on especially at Lodz!! Of course you can cross a white line, there are multitude of places where you HAVE to and MUST do this. Charterguy are you really sure avaition is your vocation??
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aerostar.....you said
"From a take-off performance perspective, there is never, ever, ever any reason or need to taxi past the end of the piano keys when lining up an aircraft." and just to repeat a few of those words again "never, ever, ever "
And the you said a few posts later "I recall flying into Leeds from memory (correct me if i'm wrong) but there I regularly went past the piano keys to get extra usable runway in front of me"
My god I'm confused. I think you want to sound like you are correct and perfect and all that kinda stuff, but it just sounds confusing and arrogant.
The piano keys are NOT the definition of the end of the manovering area. Neither is a white line (why do all the plonkers keep repeating that and proving they don't know the regs?). Look at the photos....there are NO markings on this runway, there is no line of any description. Lots of ryanair destinations use turning pads so we are programed to use them. This is clearly an airport operations issue. Someone had to be the person to highlight it. Just glad it wasn't me and in this way. But i am prepared to admit....it could have been me. (bet you'd never say that aerostar
)
"From a take-off performance perspective, there is never, ever, ever any reason or need to taxi past the end of the piano keys when lining up an aircraft." and just to repeat a few of those words again "never, ever, ever "
And the you said a few posts later "I recall flying into Leeds from memory (correct me if i'm wrong) but there I regularly went past the piano keys to get extra usable runway in front of me"
My god I'm confused. I think you want to sound like you are correct and perfect and all that kinda stuff, but it just sounds confusing and arrogant.
The piano keys are NOT the definition of the end of the manovering area. Neither is a white line (why do all the plonkers keep repeating that and proving they don't know the regs?). Look at the photos....there are NO markings on this runway, there is no line of any description. Lots of ryanair destinations use turning pads so we are programed to use them. This is clearly an airport operations issue. Someone had to be the person to highlight it. Just glad it wasn't me and in this way. But i am prepared to admit....it could have been me. (bet you'd never say that aerostar
)
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Essex
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
May I point out to all the jockeys amongst us who have the fortune to use long runways, that there are what are known as displaced thresholds. As you backtrack, the piano keys come and go, the white lines come and go, but as long as there are long pointy arrows, you are good to go a whole load more. In fact may I be so bold as to suggest that, if you are using performance figures from the 'full length', you are REQUIRED to go right to the very end. You might not be able to land on it but if you're taking off, its yours if you want it.
On the day you reject at V1 - 1kt, you will thank the lucky stars you elected to use the full length, and not the intersection departure you accepted for no good reason. (Not that this is relevant here).
Therefore, as a principal, if a crew elect to go right to the allowable end for a departure, good luck to them.
On the day you reject at V1 - 1kt, you will thank the lucky stars you elected to use the full length, and not the intersection departure you accepted for no good reason. (Not that this is relevant here).
Therefore, as a principal, if a crew elect to go right to the allowable end for a departure, good luck to them.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Worcestershire
Age: 58
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They did not go to the end of the runway, the completely left it and turned on a sand coloured surface after leaving the black main runway.There are lights at the end to mark the end of the runway.
If you go to the Lodz airport web site there is a link to a pdf which shows the detail of the current runway, i would presume the captain had this.
At the end of the day they left one surface and tried to turn on one which was sand like in colour and unfortunately turned out to be sand, no one was hurt and hopefully a lesson was learnt. If in doubt, stop or ask, the next time some one might not be so lucky.
http://www.airport.lodz.pl/files/aip_1..pdf
If you go to the Lodz airport web site there is a link to a pdf which shows the detail of the current runway, i would presume the captain had this.
At the end of the day they left one surface and tried to turn on one which was sand like in colour and unfortunately turned out to be sand, no one was hurt and hopefully a lesson was learnt. If in doubt, stop or ask, the next time some one might not be so lucky.
http://www.airport.lodz.pl/files/aip_1..pdf
Last edited by nickyjsmith; 5th May 2008 at 18:39. Reason: attached a link.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Essex
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was replying to the guy who said don't go past the piano keys. Thats just silly.
I'll wait for the official report on the Ryanair guys.
That said, 'There but for the grace of God go I'. I say to the high and mighty holier than thou heroes, keep that in mind. A statistic i'd like to see is number of incidents per sector flown for FR vs any major carrier. I know who my money is on.
I'll wait for the official report on the Ryanair guys.
That said, 'There but for the grace of God go I'. I say to the high and mighty holier than thou heroes, keep that in mind. A statistic i'd like to see is number of incidents per sector flown for FR vs any major carrier. I know who my money is on.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Italy
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Permanent link to the videos:
http://www.takeofftube.com/view/963/...-ending-strip/
http://www.takeofftube.com/view/984/...cident-update/
http://www.takeofftube.com/view/963/...-ending-strip/
http://www.takeofftube.com/view/984/...cident-update/
Last edited by M_R; 5th May 2008 at 21:06.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Definition of Clearway
The Lodz chart above shows 'CWY 60x300' which suggests that the area in question is in fact a 'Clearway' rather than a 'Stopway'. A Clearway is a 'Cleared Area free of Obstructions' - for the engine out climb segment, quite obviously not for taxying on! In the case of Lodz it has this feature at both ends of the runway - well done Lodz!
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In my seat
Posts: 822
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On that file, this "EMAS" is not mentioned. I stand by my view that the surface should have had a clear marking that it is not part of the manoeuvre area.
I could have done the same as this crew, and anyone could have as this is an example of bad airport markings. A booby-trap it was.
However, there IS some responsibility to FR, in that FR should issue a Destination Airport Brief that includes these kind of "Airport-Specials" preferably with pictures. All too often, airlines don't bother. Don't know if FR does.
I could have done the same as this crew, and anyone could have as this is an example of bad airport markings. A booby-trap it was.
However, there IS some responsibility to FR, in that FR should issue a Destination Airport Brief that includes these kind of "Airport-Specials" preferably with pictures. All too often, airlines don't bother. Don't know if FR does.