Ryanair on grass in Poland - Taxi incident

[Bomber Harris]

Nickyjsmith, your posting was almost complete rubbish. I think there was a comma in there that made sense!

Firstly it is normal to taxi past runway end lights. When you get a PPL you will know about that. I wish you the best of luck with your PPL.

Secondly the "sand" coloured surface was also a concrete coloured surface. It is common to have concrete runways. It is also common to have tarmac runways and cheaper concrete turning pads at the end. You will see this when you do your first cross country.

Thirdly, you presumed the captain had access to a document you found on the net. Im afraid this is a very very bad assumtion. When you get your first airline job you will find out that you only have access to your company approved part B manual which will be supplemented with notams. In this case neither noted that there was a RESA at the end of the runway which did not have the PCN for a 737. Sorry if i lost you on that because you obviously don't have your PPL but you did choose to post on a PROFFESIONAL PILOTS NETWORK and i don't have the time to explain how an airline works to you.

So hopefully you learned a lesson (as you suggested the captain might) and you will ASK IF IN DOUBT BEFORE YOU POST!!

So after you read annex 14 and know what the **** your talking about please post again!

[Aerostar600A]

Hey Bomber,

Call me arrogant, I really couldnt care less mate. That is your opinion and that's fine too.

I went past the piano keys at leeds many times because it was absolutely obvious to the PIC (me) that it was safe to do so. Generally speaking though, there is never ever any need to do that. This accident certainly highlights a good reason why we ought not repeat this practice.

Correct me if I'm wrong but at Leeds, the pavement beyond the piano keys at least looks like the same colour and texture as the actual runway pavement. In the case of this accident, there is a clear distinction between the end of the physical runway pavement and the area within which they stopped. That is and should be seen as a big threat when considering your line up options.

600

[BongleBear]

Exquisite Journalism

A Ryanair flight bound for Britain has crashed off the runway at a Polish airport

From http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

Good old daily mail.

"It is believed no one has been hurt."

I can't believe no one died. Lucky it wasn't sinking sand.

"Strong winds had forced planes to use the full length of the runway."

Wind was 110/12. With that 'strong wind' I think it's more a case of "Hero Captain saves the day" considering 'It is believed no one has been hurt'.

Finally, the headline:

"Ryanair flight bound for Britain skids off runway in Poland"

Have boeing still not corrected that ultra-low taxi speed skid problem out yet?

Congratulations Daily Mail, once again your reporters have compiled a stunning piece of journalism. It's efforts like this that keep us all wondering why the Politzer Prize hasn't found its way onto your mantelpiece.

[Ptkay]

Originally Posted by Bomber Harris

Thirdly, you presumed the captain had access to a document you found on the net. Im afraid this is a very very bad assumtion.

You are very arrogant and ill informed...

The document is the official Aerodrome Chart-ICAO from the Polish AIP: AD 2 EPLL 1-1-1.
This is not "a document found in the net", this is official part of the PIC mandatory
set of documents to be held on board and in front of PIC face when using certain airport.

And this official ICAO document states CWY !!!!
Is there something you don't understand?

So maybe YOU should go back to the PPL ground school !

I will quote, with pleasure, again:

Originally Posted by Herc708

The Lodz chart above shows 'CWY 60x300' which suggests that the area in question is in fact a 'Clearway' rather than a 'Stopway'. A Clearway is a 'Cleared Area free of Obstructions' - for the engine out climb segment, quite obviously not for taxiing on! In the case of Lodz it has this feature at both ends of the runway - well done Lodz!

...and one more thing;

If you are so fond of Annex 14, look first into Chapter 1.1 Definitions:

Clearway. A defined rectangular area on the ground or water
under the control of the appropriate authority, selected or
prepared as a suitable area over which an aeroplane may
make a portion of its initial climb to a specified height.

(do you suggest we may taxi also on water???)

...and then into Attachment A, ATT A-3 :

3.3 Where a runway is provided with a clearway (CWY),
then the TODA will include the length of clearway, as shown
in Figure A-1 (B).

and then on the mentioned figure A-1 on the next page.

I assume you know the difference between TODA and TORA, ASDA or LDA ...

[Bomber Harris]

ohh those guys really would me up....don't post annoyed i guess.

hey ptkay. to answer your two comments
1/ i know well what that doc is. but come on, you know the polish aip is not avail to line crews, its whats on the jepps and airfield briefs....you really don't believe we have access to the aips of 20 countries in the crewrooms. Its part B thats approved and thats it!

2/ yes i do know the definitions. its the aerodrome marking section i'm talking about. there should be markings for a clearway which were not present as far as i can see from the video.

anyway, it's not really important what is said here. i heard this morning that the guys are back flying the line with no fault placed on them. that is what is important. so looks like the company investigators agree this was a minor incident...and boy do FR know how to treat you if you step out of line

[Chocks Away]

Yeh 737Jock.
Looks like they have no understanding of how V1 is calculated, visa intersection departures.

[SpaceBetweenThoughts]

Am somewhat surprised in all this technical discussion about runway markings and V1 etc that little comment has been made on fatigue and the effect that this can have on pilot judgement and minimisation of errors.

Now I am NOT suggesting that the crew were outside the legal parameters with respect to Flight Time Limitations but is it timely to review the length and numbers of Flight/Duty hours which are permitted by legislation?

Decades ago it took a major accident to get ANY flight time limitations. Later we had the Bader inquiry (in about the 1970s I think) after which the rules were revised.

Much has changed in the last few years. Multi sector days, repetitive early starts, increased traffic density, even the journey to the airport (and back) is more time consuming and potentially stressful. Ok its true that the gadgets and equipment on the a/c are better but maybe this type of incident proves yet again that it is the human beings up the sharp end that need most attention when it comes to flight safety.

[Ptkay]

Originally Posted by Bomber Harris

1/ i know well what that doc is. but come on, you know the polish aip is not avail to line crews, its whats on the jepps and airfield briefs....you really don't believe we have access to the aips of 20 countries in the crewrooms. Its part B thats approved and thats it!

It means in your part B you do not have full ICAO Aerodrome Chart of the airport you are going to use ??
So how you find all the taxiways, aprons, gates etc?
How can you follow the ATC commands?
Interesting...

2/ yes i do know the definitions. its the aerodrome marking section i'm talking about. there should be markings for a clearway which were not present as far as i can see from the video.

Since you are such a specialist on Annex 14, tell me where I can find
in it the description and definitions of the clearway markings????

I think there are NONE, the same as there are no extra markings for grass or mud...
Markings are for the areas where you are allowed to move around on the ground,
not where you are supposed to fly above or avoid at all.

So there are markings for runways, stopways, taxiways etc.

Generally, what I was taught by my CFI, follow the yellow line or green lights,
DO NOT ENTER anything that is not marked in a way recognizable for you...

Of course there are a big X markings on some surfaces, that look like taxiway or runway,
but are temporarily or permanently out of use.

But do you expect the airports to lay X everywhere around the runway?
On the dirt or grass around.

This runway in Łódź was just recently renovated, sand all around both ends...
Do you really think you are supposed to taxi on all surfaces at the airfield with no big X non it?

C'mon...

[nickyjsmith]

Sorry to annoy you bomber,you are right, i'm not a pro but i find it kind of scarey that you guy's and girl's would fly into an airport without all the relevant information just because your company SOP's say so.

I did not mean to offend the Captain, surely he/she has the authority to call ATC to confirm something especially if you don't have the AIP for the airport.

Does the level/quality of information available vary for different airlines?

You can't blame the airfield, the document's were available,the area was defined correctly,they complied with the rules.Agreed, they could have had some kind of low barrier to better define the area but they were not required to. Is a crew required to have a copy of the AIP plate for the airfield?

May be things need reviewing so that area's are better marked and crews must have all the relevant information for destinations and diversions in their possession.

Not trying to offend, just a concerned beginner and frequent passenger.

[BongleBear]

nicky, the information available is the same for everyone as far as saying a pilot could gather all the info themselves or given to them by the company- you've shown that with a bit of time on the 'net you've got hold of the aip. however, if you were a ba captain and you flew into lodz for the first time you could say on here (with hindsight following this event) that you would spend the evening before studying all charts and looking at clearways, stopways, the taxi route, the terminal etc... but i would call you a liar.

in reality, you would probably simply turn up to the crewroom, pull the jeppeson chart out (if that's your companies chart supplier of choice) and take a look at arrivals, the type of approaches available, local terrain (low level charts, info on flight plans etc) and then have a chat to the guy sat next to you about it.

i am an fo with ryr out of ema and have flown to lodz several times. i can't remember noticing this area. i would have said something if i had noticed it visually, however i am prepared to hold my hand up and say that i hadn't spotted it on a chart. at ryanair we have the jeppeson charts printed in booklet form, each booklet containing all charts appropriate to that particular airport. along with this booklet we carry the rtow charts which, in almost all cases, has an airfield briefing section at the front which is a summary of the airport and is an excellent way of detailling the entire flight expected from star to sid and all in between (including local weather phenomena, anomalies, expected atc routings/descent profile planning and descent points to be expected etc..).

the company is very aware that they will always be under scrutiny for the guys and girls they recruit- plenty who are young, old, low houred and who don't have english as their mother tongue. this will never be an explanation for events like this however. i would say we hold the strongest and tightest sop's in the business, everything is written down for reference and when it comes to briefings we are hammered on these when it comes to all aspects of training.

in summary, this could happen to anyone. that's not to say lets not look at it and discuss, because we all know that's the best way to learn.

be glad it wasn't you and well done for those of you who admitted that you've been a bit poor in the past at studying that clearway is available.

bongle bear

[I Just Drive]

I know perfectly well how intersection performance is calculated and if you read what I said properly you would note I said 'for no good reason'. I can and do take intersection departures whenever appropriate. What I said was, if there is no real need to go from an intersection, use the full length. There can be no substitute for more runway in front of you. As you will know, V1 is calculated using perfect scenarios e.g. full braking, very quick reaction times etc.. If all those things don't stack up on the day you reject at high speed, you would be pleased you had used the full length. Even more pleased if you had done intersection performance and gone full length anyway. Again, I was simply making the point to the people who posted about going beyond the piano keys like its forbidden territory.

[Lurking123]

I think it is quite clear on the Jep where the runway ends.

Sorry, I'll get back in my box because someone thinks I'm a lawyer.

[I Just Drive]

Its easy then, would you rather take off on a short runway or a long runway.

Back to thread......

[GearDown&Locked]

...maybe on long rwy with preps for a short rwy

Anyway, are there many pilots doing this route at FR? Surely someone would have brought this type of potential trap to the next fellow pilot's attention, because inspite of what the plates don't say, it is misleading and seems rather unlogical to have to turn before the piano keys without any extended (read lateral) pavement to help the turn, a turning pad.

And yes, pilots are professionals and should know all this beforehand and all that, but some 'scenarios' are really asking for it, the way they are set.

[Aerostar600A]

Geardown

From the video in youtube, there are 12 piano keys painted at the threshold which means the runway is 45m wide. Turning a 737 with that width is just a walk in the park. They didnt access any extra width by going beyond the end of the runway, did they?

The fact is they taxied right past the end of the runway. Let that be a lesson to all of us especially in the absence of any additional runway markings identitfying an extension to the pavement surface.

In my experience, its usually very obvious where additional runway pavement is available beyond what has been used for take-off calculation. When its not immediately obvious, just don't do it, no need too. Anyhow, those FR pilots do fly into very difficult places and so the risk profile for their operations is higher.

Everyone involved still has a heart beat and a pulse so that's the main thing.

600

[737]

I was in Lodz yesterday. Its quite obvious where the runway ends and the sand starts. It doesn't look like runway, the end of the runway is clearly marked and the raised runway end lights are a dead give away. Any idea how they explained it to Ray?

Its even more obvious now since the Polish haven't even raked the divot!

[slip and turn]

Oh come on 737, you know this one didn't create a divot - their long drive ended in a perfectly manicured bunker

[BongleBear]

probably told ray they'd take 1/2 pay for 6 months, then he said 1/4 and they shook hands. tea and biscuits paid for by pilots.

[in my last airline]

Definitely a lesson learned here, but I would like to say that having spoken to the guys from engineering who went out to rescue the a/c, they spoke so highly of the captain and the way in which he carried himself throughout the ordeal. He is a totally selfless, egoless and cautious person with a huge experience level, and was in from the very beginning with the UKs second flag carrier with lots of flight time and training time including Base trainer (heavy). So if it can happen to him, it can happen to us all. I'd like to say I am grateful for the lesson, and have learnt from it and beyond the taxiing incident, I have also picked up a few tips on how to conduct oneself post incident.

[Contam 7.7]

I don't know how Ryanair does it, but as a large Company with lots of destinations, an in-house hazard reporting system can turn into an Airport Briefing which is updated as required and kept with the plates/Jepps.

Then each pilot who goes infrequently to each destination has at least the latest hazard update which can help prevent some of these incidents particularly at the dodgy airports.

I would think that Ryanair has such a system in place.