Ryanair on grass in Poland - Taxi incident
“could have happened to anyone"
What might be learned from this or similar situations where crews suffer error – something that did not turn out as expected. How might we avoid an incident with more serious consequence than appears to be the case in this one?
For those who don’t suffer these problems, or haven’t as yet, what are the safeguards, checks, tips, or safety defences being used?
Is there any local knowledge about this runway, downhill slope, strength of pavement, or markings? Anything published?
Are there any hazards in unusual lighting conditions which could lead to a misidentification of position? Are the paint markings particularly slippery in wet conditions?
The issues above relate to the situation, but in addition, operating crew are exposed to the variability in human performance and range of behaviours. Also, there could be many organisational factors which with strong influence on behaviour.
If any of the above applies, then who knew, and who should have communicated the hazard to others?
For those who have some answers, then why not share this knowledge, be it specific to the runway, aircraft, or operation; what factors might we use to help avoid a similar situation?
For those who don’t suffer these problems, or haven’t as yet, what are the safeguards, checks, tips, or safety defences being used?
Is there any local knowledge about this runway, downhill slope, strength of pavement, or markings? Anything published?
Are there any hazards in unusual lighting conditions which could lead to a misidentification of position? Are the paint markings particularly slippery in wet conditions?
The issues above relate to the situation, but in addition, operating crew are exposed to the variability in human performance and range of behaviours. Also, there could be many organisational factors which with strong influence on behaviour.
If any of the above applies, then who knew, and who should have communicated the hazard to others?
For those who have some answers, then why not share this knowledge, be it specific to the runway, aircraft, or operation; what factors might we use to help avoid a similar situation?
Join Date: Jul 2007
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ermm.....for those of you, the "top pilots"
You do realise that most of the APT's require all a/c's to go all the way to the end of the runway, and turn there. Most of them have what they call a "turning bay". Now, the turning bay in question was brand new and was actually built to stop a/c's veering off the runway. But in this case, this bit of sand didn't had any signs saying otherwise, neither the ATC warned the F/D.
However, as someone said, it could've happen to anyone. This aircrew assumed it was a brand new turning bay as it looked like brand new concrete. So, have your say, but note the true facts before you show off as smart a$$es....
Safe flying
However, as someone said, it could've happen to anyone. This aircrew assumed it was a brand new turning bay as it looked like brand new concrete. So, have your say, but note the true facts before you show off as smart a$$es....
Safe flying
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.Your last post is more like teaching grandma how to suck eggs.
Apart from that, I have no other comment and wait for the report to be published.
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Been this airport lots of times....you have to be carefull not to take the "spotters" heads off on an approach to 25 as they all clamber to the chicken wire fence ADJACENT to the threshold. Same thing pulling off stand...must avoid the temptation to blow the "terminal" doors shut at the gate then avoid folks all waving bye bye to their loved ones, family and friends clambering to another fence! Remarkably the sun dried crusty surface off the sandpit at 07 end looks amazingly like concrete!! This illusion is backed up by an ashphalt strip running down one side of it giving the impression of a supporting surface! Probably would have done the same thing myself but saw a crow tugging at a worm or something! For the love of god why cant we have a idiot proof sign staked in the grass that says dont taxi on this bit please! Chart dipiction needs greater clarity of consequence not just two or three dots (under a tea stain) at the end of a thick black line on the 10 pages or a notam burried in eighty pages of notams! JAR and ICAO compliance...bring it on!! I do honestly hope ALL are ok and not too shook up.
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Saitek:
To say that you have only been a pilot for what, 5 years, and now are an instructor
... well, it speaks volumes about the airline. The fact that you are now an instructor is, quite frankly, worrying. Doesn't happen in the vast majority of airlines like that. And no i'm not just bashing FR for the sake of it.
I know guys who have become Captains at Ryanair after just 3/4 years. That is NOT acceptable. Even they themselves think it isn't quite right. Of course they won't turn down the offer, but they readily accept that their lack of experience is no reason to be promoting them to Captain. The company should be more responsible.
You can cut corners time after time. Eventually it WILL take it's toll. When it does I won't be there as I won't fly with them. Ever.
To say that you have only been a pilot for what, 5 years, and now are an instructor
... well, it speaks volumes about the airline. The fact that you are now an instructor is, quite frankly, worrying. Doesn't happen in the vast majority of airlines like that. And no i'm not just bashing FR for the sake of it.I know guys who have become Captains at Ryanair after just 3/4 years. That is NOT acceptable. Even they themselves think it isn't quite right. Of course they won't turn down the offer, but they readily accept that their lack of experience is no reason to be promoting them to Captain. The company should be more responsible.
You can cut corners time after time. Eventually it WILL take it's toll. When it does I won't be there as I won't fly with them. Ever.
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Wrong place wrong time...
Guys let us not forget we are all human and make errors. There is nothing wrong with using all available runway...Be it in a C172 or a B744. As stated before by pilots flying that field it obviously gives an illusion of CEMENT tarmac. I've flown into airports in venezuela which have runways of that colour accomodating B767's. Ok maybe itsnt properlly signed or marked and being their arent any runway end lights visible would give this particular cpatain no reason not to beleive he can use it as a "Displaced" threshhold.
Good luck to the crew!
Good luck to the crew!
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as I won't fly with them. Ever.
they should set up a seperate thread for people who want to moan about ryanair... I believe this thread is based on an incident in lodz and not your personal opinions on the airline.
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The 00SEVEN S and others must realise that Ryanair from a training ,checking and procedural stand point set and achieve very high standards.
To make the point that Ryanair crew s are not as professional or do not meet the standards of the"legacy" carriers goes to show the complete lack of knowledge on this forum.
Any ex BA,VIRGIN or similar ailine operator s who work or have worked for Ryanair will tell you that the standards are very high.
Mistake s can be made and it can happen to any of us.
Great that it give's the anorak s something to talk about!
To make the point that Ryanair crew s are not as professional or do not meet the standards of the"legacy" carriers goes to show the complete lack of knowledge on this forum.
Any ex BA,VIRGIN or similar ailine operator s who work or have worked for Ryanair will tell you that the standards are very high.
Mistake s can be made and it can happen to any of us.
Great that it give's the anorak s something to talk about!
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What does a top shelf captain do in a company like FR? The pinnacle of his career, or did he fall down from somewhere? Or is he past 60?
Just asking, as I have never met any highly experienced pilots with aspirations of joining FR. Not without a reason.
Just asking, as I have never met any highly experienced pilots with aspirations of joining FR. Not without a reason.
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Meanwhile, back on track .....
Looking at the photos, had the aircraft been attempting to use the "full" runway length on 07 for departure, surely it would have taxied further in to the unpaved area, before executing it's 180 deg turn ? The aircraft has turned around only a short distance past the end of the paved surface , so it looks as if the crew taxied onto the non paved area and after perhaps realising they shouldn't have done, atttempted to turn around as soon as possible .....
Also a 2500 m R/W is more than adequate for an -800 with 170 pax and a non tankering flight to EMA, (especially with nearly 10kts of H/W as the met reports at the time were giving), so they would not have needed the extra 60 metres or so the overrun area gave them.
Looking at the photos, had the aircraft been attempting to use the "full" runway length on 07 for departure, surely it would have taxied further in to the unpaved area, before executing it's 180 deg turn ? The aircraft has turned around only a short distance past the end of the paved surface , so it looks as if the crew taxied onto the non paved area and after perhaps realising they shouldn't have done, atttempted to turn around as soon as possible .....
Also a 2500 m R/W is more than adequate for an -800 with 170 pax and a non tankering flight to EMA, (especially with nearly 10kts of H/W as the met reports at the time were giving), so they would not have needed the extra 60 metres or so the overrun area gave them.
The Cooler King
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Also a 2500 m R/W is more than adequate for an -800 with 170 pax and a non tankering flight to EMA, (especially with nearly 10kts of H/W as the met reports at the time were giving), so they would not have needed the extra 60 metres or so the overrun area gave them.
60 metres can make a big difference and explaining away why you chose not to utilise it after an overrun would be interesting to hear.
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Assuming the performance manual allows a departure from the rwy threshold / intersection then an overrun is more likely to be the result of an incorrect RTO technique.
Thus defending your choice of departure position is straight forward - it was within performance limits. Defending your RTO technique may be a little more difficult.
However, I acknowledge that whenever full length is available and doesn't compromise efficiency I will take it.
Running for cover!
Thus defending your choice of departure position is straight forward - it was within performance limits. Defending your RTO technique may be a little more difficult.
However, I acknowledge that whenever full length is available and doesn't compromise efficiency I will take it.
Running for cover!
Ut Sementem Feeceris
I totally agree regarding runway behind you..... but why do some seem to take it to the extreme? I believe the RYR at EMA a few weeks ago turned RIGHT whilst lining up on 27 to get those extra couple of metres and subsequently planted the right gear in the grass? I have seen the same at STN (RYR) when lining up on 23 from "S" which is a 45° lead on. Some have come SO close to dropping the right mains off the hard stuff. Why? Is this something that is emphasised in RYR training? (That's a question, not a criticism) It's a 3000m runway for heavens sake, the chances of going off the end are remote (unless you make a complete ball$ of it!) and 5 metres is going to make hardly any difference as you will almost be stopped anyway - the mains would still be on the runway/stopway.
I've never been to LDZ but I have been to similar places that require a backtrack and 180°. I don't know why they crossed the solid white. Confused that the sand looked like concrete? It does seem strange that the mains have hardly sunk in at all.
I'm sure the crew are feeling pretty gutted about the whole thing...... I hope their "masters" respond in a suitably human way.
A4
I've never been to LDZ but I have been to similar places that require a backtrack and 180°. I don't know why they crossed the solid white. Confused that the sand looked like concrete? It does seem strange that the mains have hardly sunk in at all.
I'm sure the crew are feeling pretty gutted about the whole thing...... I hope their "masters" respond in a suitably human way.
A4
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Farrel said:
"Not telling you how to suck eggs but from a good airmanship perspective, it is advisable to have as much runway as possible in case of an RTO.
60 metres can make a big difference and explaining away why you chose not to utilise it after an overrun would be interesting to hear."
Hey Farrel,
In case you fly for FR, next time you depart from RWY 28 at Dublin, why dont you just start the roll from across the road over at ALSAA! That way you will have plenty of runway ahead of you!
Like I said in my previous post, its just a 737-800 and its not that critical. All this B/S about a few wasted meters being critical to RTO perfermance is nonsense and if you cant see that its nonsense, god help us all.
They went PAST THE END OF THE RWY. They crossed the white lines. This is something that cannot be defended so all this crap about good airmanship is garabage. They f**ked up...simple as that. And its something those idiot training captains must be pushing at FR because you see it all the time. I wonder how many squashed runway end lights are out there because of FR pilots. One always gets what they pay for in life and FR management are now starting to see how real this concept actually is.
"Not telling you how to suck eggs but from a good airmanship perspective, it is advisable to have as much runway as possible in case of an RTO.
60 metres can make a big difference and explaining away why you chose not to utilise it after an overrun would be interesting to hear."
Hey Farrel,
In case you fly for FR, next time you depart from RWY 28 at Dublin, why dont you just start the roll from across the road over at ALSAA! That way you will have plenty of runway ahead of you!
Like I said in my previous post, its just a 737-800 and its not that critical. All this B/S about a few wasted meters being critical to RTO perfermance is nonsense and if you cant see that its nonsense, god help us all.
They went PAST THE END OF THE RWY. They crossed the white lines. This is something that cannot be defended so all this crap about good airmanship is garabage. They f**ked up...simple as that. And its something those idiot training captains must be pushing at FR because you see it all the time. I wonder how many squashed runway end lights are out there because of FR pilots. One always gets what they pay for in life and FR management are now starting to see how real this concept actually is.
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They went PAST THE END OF THE RWY. They crossed the white lines. This is something that cannot be defended so all this crap about good airmanship is garabage. They f**ked up...simple as that. And its something those idiot training captains must be pushing at FR because you see it all the time. I wonder how many squashed runway end lights are out there because of FR pilots.
I'm not a pilot so I'll get out from where I don't belong after this, it's just hard to bite your tongue reading posts by people who would seem like they'll feel their Christmas' have all come at once if there's, God forbid, ever a major Ryanair incident. Thankfully it's (using my best judgement of his/her posts here) rational people like Saitek that are employed in EMA.
Keep up the bashing people, this is just the kind of stuff O'Leary laps up! Cue some Based basing too
