BALPA and BA talks breakdown
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: southeast UK
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is a pity to see proffesional pilots using such phrases as 'scab' so openly on a public forum. It is a stark reminder of the miners strikes of decades ago. There are obviously a few very pro-union posters making a lot of noise and rousing the troops onward to battle.
We all have our own position on this issue be us pilots, managers or customers. Mine as a passenger booked to fly during the peak of the strike threat is that strike action in the UK in the long term has never won anything. In the short term you might win a skirmish but as a result the company gets its cards marked by the public as very union driven and volatile. Watch the business crumble over time.
As for me and the family (accused on the other thread as being a 'manager' but defintely not), well I have just had to pay up for our accomodation in the USA or lose it. So I am out of pocket on that. Then the flights have been paid for on both BA and onward with AA. Will my travel insurance pay up if we can't go? I doubt it somehow. That is equally as real to me as your problems are to you.
(yes I know you are fighting for your future, or so your union reps keep telling you, but guess what? The travelling public doesn't give a damn. If you can convince us that by your actions we will benefit in the future, or at least not be worse off, then perhaps we could be made to understand. A union rep had better get on tv quick and try to get Joe Public on your side. Right now I see it as an internal company fight which the public can in the future avoid and let you all get on with it in the same way you would walk around a drunk in the street and not get involved.)
We all have our own position on this issue be us pilots, managers or customers. Mine as a passenger booked to fly during the peak of the strike threat is that strike action in the UK in the long term has never won anything. In the short term you might win a skirmish but as a result the company gets its cards marked by the public as very union driven and volatile. Watch the business crumble over time.
As for me and the family (accused on the other thread as being a 'manager' but defintely not), well I have just had to pay up for our accomodation in the USA or lose it. So I am out of pocket on that. Then the flights have been paid for on both BA and onward with AA. Will my travel insurance pay up if we can't go? I doubt it somehow. That is equally as real to me as your problems are to you.
(yes I know you are fighting for your future, or so your union reps keep telling you, but guess what? The travelling public doesn't give a damn. If you can convince us that by your actions we will benefit in the future, or at least not be worse off, then perhaps we could be made to understand. A union rep had better get on tv quick and try to get Joe Public on your side. Right now I see it as an internal company fight which the public can in the future avoid and let you all get on with it in the same way you would walk around a drunk in the street and not get involved.)
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...as a result the company gets its cards marked by the public as very union driven and volatile. Watch the business crumble over time.
Willie Walsh was quoted in one of the broadsheets at the weekend acknowledging that BA had chosen the wrong strategy of cost-cutting rather than actively seeking mergers (maybe someone can provide a link). As a result of this error, they now feel it is a good time to try to make up for it from the employees - and they've started with those who have most to lose and who are most likely to defend their lot.
I am hopeful that this will see significant changes at the top of the company and we can get back to where we belong. If any of the present Leadership Team remain in place after the inevitable blood letting which will follow a strike, their lack of credibility is highly likely to mean that the goodwill which the pilots have shown over the past few years by going the extra mile to make up for the shortfall in service caused by the excessive cost-cutting will be lost.
It didn't have to be this way.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: South of the Watford Gap, East of Portland
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'The travelling public doesn't give a damn.' - and therein lies the problem with the current state of the airline industry. You, the travelling public, has been given all-time low airline fares combined with all-time low standards; and you lap it up. But that has come at the expense (BA and legacy carriers' crews excluded who through sheer 'muscle' have been able to defend their positions) at an erosion of pay and terms and conditions among a very large number of professional pilots over the past 10 years. This assault has been lead by the likes of O'Leary and now Walsh (there is a common factor here) and it is time that it is made quite clear that enough is enough. If it means putting £10 on a seat then so be it.
In my opinion BA crew do not have to get the public 'on side'. It is an internal dispute but the only way in which such disputes hit home is when the shareholders' bottom-line is hit. And have no worries, this will not bring BA down - Irish upstarts might.
In my opinion BA crew do not have to get the public 'on side'. It is an internal dispute but the only way in which such disputes hit home is when the shareholders' bottom-line is hit. And have no worries, this will not bring BA down - Irish upstarts might.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: London
Posts: 390
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You, the travelling public, has been given all-time low airline fares combined with all-time low standards; and you lap it up.
You should add to your list of truly dreadful people Mr Henry Ford. Before that bastard came along, only decent wealthy people were to be found in motor cars on public roads. Well, I guess he wasn't Irish, so maybe he doesn't make your list. I assume that's why you left Stelios out, anyway.
P
Uncle Pete
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Frodsham Cheshire
Posts: 915
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are no winners in a strike.
I think it a dreadful shame that so-called professional people start to sling the s**t like you lot are.
To BALPA, get your act together, get involved in a constructive dialogue with BA.
Luddites went out existance years ago, along with the dinosoars!!
'scuse the spelling
MP
I think it a dreadful shame that so-called professional people start to sling the s**t like you lot are.
To BALPA, get your act together, get involved in a constructive dialogue with BA.
Luddites went out existance years ago, along with the dinosoars!!
'scuse the spelling
MP
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So; Mods, obviously this is a very emotive issue, but are the comments that ACMS made (post number 17) really acceptable for a professional forum?
As an aside - Judge11 - so the the public are prepared to take a little less luxury and pay a lot less money for the privelege? What fools eh?
Unfortunately the days of BA giving the standard of service that every airline aspired to are long gone - they are no better than other national carriers. The public must be brought on side as it is the public who hold your future employment in their hands.
I do not think any member of public with a little common sense would deny the rights of BA pilots in the issues facing them, however the attitude of a minority of BA staff which is "you get what you get, like it or lump it" is in danger of becoming more pervasive and will if not corrected, be the real risk to the future of BA.
As an aside - Judge11 - so the the public are prepared to take a little less luxury and pay a lot less money for the privelege? What fools eh?
Unfortunately the days of BA giving the standard of service that every airline aspired to are long gone - they are no better than other national carriers. The public must be brought on side as it is the public who hold your future employment in their hands.
I do not think any member of public with a little common sense would deny the rights of BA pilots in the issues facing them, however the attitude of a minority of BA staff which is "you get what you get, like it or lump it" is in danger of becoming more pervasive and will if not corrected, be the real risk to the future of BA.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
StudentInDebt wrote:
Sorry-----Cabin Crew did NOT go on strike in Winter 2007!
Many see it as WW handling of the situation which caused the problems.
Whatever the rights or wrongs of any strike, any action will lead to the demise of BA.
Summer 2004 customer service staff walk out - 2004/5 Profit 513M
Summer 2005 ground handling staff walk out - 2005/6 Profit 620M
Winter 2007 cabin crew strike (effectively closed the airline) - 2006/7 Profit 611M
Summer 2004 customer service staff walk out - 2004/5 Profit 513M
Summer 2005 ground handling staff walk out - 2005/6 Profit 620M
Winter 2007 cabin crew strike (effectively closed the airline) - 2006/7 Profit 611M
Many see it as WW handling of the situation which caused the problems.
Last edited by chipmunkj; 8th Mar 2008 at 14:34.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: near BHX
Age: 59
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shame, though
Well, I've got Easter flights booked with BA and 1500 quid's worth of flat booked at the other end, which won't be covered under travel insurance. I'm perfectly happy for BA staff to strike in support of their Ts and Cs, but in common with a lot of people I can't say that through anything other than gritted teeth. My reading of the various postures from the participants is that Walsh will shut the airline down, cancel the T5 move and sit it out.
All the seniority in the world won't help pilots if as a result BA lose LHR slots in the EU-US Open Skies slot auction (isn't there a provision that airlines applying for slots have to have a history of uninterrupted service), and given the middle class propensity to holiday at Easter it'll have a major on-going impact on business travel (people who have lost money on holidays won't race to book tickets).
It's up to the pilots what to do, and it's a shame that BA, ACAS and BALPA can't reach an agreement. But pilots who believe that `winning' a strike is a guarantee of long-term employment are invited to visit a mining town: you can win the battle, but lose the war.
Good luck with the negotiations. But even speaking as a staunch supporter of labour rights and the rights of trade unions I can't say that 1500 quid sits easily.
All the seniority in the world won't help pilots if as a result BA lose LHR slots in the EU-US Open Skies slot auction (isn't there a provision that airlines applying for slots have to have a history of uninterrupted service), and given the middle class propensity to holiday at Easter it'll have a major on-going impact on business travel (people who have lost money on holidays won't race to book tickets).
It's up to the pilots what to do, and it's a shame that BA, ACAS and BALPA can't reach an agreement. But pilots who believe that `winning' a strike is a guarantee of long-term employment are invited to visit a mining town: you can win the battle, but lose the war.
Good luck with the negotiations. But even speaking as a staunch supporter of labour rights and the rights of trade unions I can't say that 1500 quid sits easily.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: dubai
Posts: 942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry BALPA, you won't win in the long term on this one. You will bring the airline down with you and you will be out of a job. Tell that to the wife and kids (in public school) when you cant cough up the fees. The bank manager won't give a rats a**** who the hell you think you are. All they are interested is the money.
The days of the glory boys at the front end of the aircraft who think their own s*** doesn't stink, are long gone. An airline has to slim down to survive.
I used to think like you lot and was very militant years ago but soon learnt that they will always get pilots to do your job, make no mistake.
Pilots will never stick together as a group, never and BA know it. Sooner or later, ranks will be broken and a lot of you will be back with your tails between your legs, willing to work for anything, or next to nothing. Then you will be victims of the oldest management trick in the book, divide and rule.
The days of the glory boys at the front end of the aircraft who think their own s*** doesn't stink, are long gone. An airline has to slim down to survive.
I used to think like you lot and was very militant years ago but soon learnt that they will always get pilots to do your job, make no mistake.
Pilots will never stick together as a group, never and BA know it. Sooner or later, ranks will be broken and a lot of you will be back with your tails between your legs, willing to work for anything, or next to nothing. Then you will be victims of the oldest management trick in the book, divide and rule.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Barking
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An airline has to slim down to survive.
I used to think like you lot and was very militant years ago but soon learnt that they will always get pilots to do your job, make no mistake.
Then you will be victims of the oldest management trick in the book, divide and rule.
xyzzy
Don’t worry, airlines traditionally get round preserving slots by leasing in aircraft to operate short versions of the routes from nearby regional airports.
Easy money for the minnows who can provide the airframes. Not sure what size of airframe is required to keep LHR happy these days, they used to use Small piston twins. Recently, a four engined jet was leased in by a well known Southern Hemsphere flag carrier in order to operate EMPTY
Manchester to Heathrow and back three times a day for two years to preserve slots. Probably 2-3 million litres of fuel burnt carrying nothing but fresh air. Interestingly, BAConnect bid for this work, but according to BA management, the nasty BA BALPA CC refused to allow it. Funny old thing, it turned out that was not actually true.
This might be a clever trick to get round the rules, but I can’t see our friends at Greenpeace keeping quiet. It wouldn’t sit well with the Respecting our World policy either
, unless this has already been thought of and WW compensates by turning Waterside into a giant composter and planting a million trees. 
Don’t worry, airlines traditionally get round preserving slots by leasing in aircraft to operate short versions of the routes from nearby regional airports.
Easy money for the minnows who can provide the airframes. Not sure what size of airframe is required to keep LHR happy these days, they used to use Small piston twins. Recently, a four engined jet was leased in by a well known Southern Hemsphere flag carrier in order to operate EMPTY
Manchester to Heathrow and back three times a day for two years to preserve slots. Probably 2-3 million litres of fuel burnt carrying nothing but fresh air. Interestingly, BAConnect bid for this work, but according to BA management, the nasty BA BALPA CC refused to allow it. Funny old thing, it turned out that was not actually true. This might be a clever trick to get round the rules, but I can’t see our friends at Greenpeace keeping quiet. It wouldn’t sit well with the Respecting our World policy either
, unless this has already been thought of and WW compensates by turning Waterside into a giant composter and planting a million trees.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RTFP
right at the start of this thread a first time poster called bigbobblogs posted something titled "BA PRESS RELEASE" then there was a narrative obviously cut and paste. Then BBB typed the word "ENDS" to signify the ending of the press release. It looks to me like the only word BBB used which was his own was the word "ends", and typed very eloquently i may add 
av8r and dave bloke: can you please explain why you attacked this poster, or should i say "cut and paster". From his typing of the word "ends" you seem to have deduced he
1. is BA management
2. is about to loose a lot of money if the strike goes ahead
This is NOT a comment on the potential strike, I am just curious about BA pilots deductive powers. Maybe BBB has made more posts which give his identity away which I have not seen and maybe, av8r and dave, you have had clashes with this person before. If so, I understand your reasons for your posts, but it really does say "1 post" beside his name as of today???
btw, p stands for "post" in my title!
Now, as a comment on the potential strike........matt; you need to re-evaluate your personal principles. you are a very sick individual who is in need of counseling. I do believe that you can be re-aligned with the rest of humanity, but you will need to recognise that you may need to help to get it done.
av8r and dave bloke: can you please explain why you attacked this poster, or should i say "cut and paster". From his typing of the word "ends" you seem to have deduced he
1. is BA management
2. is about to loose a lot of money if the strike goes ahead
This is NOT a comment on the potential strike, I am just curious about BA pilots deductive powers. Maybe BBB has made more posts which give his identity away which I have not seen and maybe, av8r and dave, you have had clashes with this person before. If so, I understand your reasons for your posts, but it really does say "1 post" beside his name as of today???
btw, p stands for "post" in my title!
Now, as a comment on the potential strike........matt; you need to re-evaluate your personal principles. you are a very sick individual who is in need of counseling. I do believe that you can be re-aligned with the rest of humanity, but you will need to recognise that you may need to help to get it done.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Sorry BALPA, you won't win in the long term on this one. You will bring the airline down with you and you will be out of a job. Tell that to the wife and kids (in public school) when you cant cough up the fees. The bank manager won't give a rats a**** who the hell you think you are. All they are interested is the money.
The days of the glory boys at the front end of the aircraft who think their own s*** doesn't stink, are long gone. An airline has to slim down to survive.
I used to think like you lot and was very militant years ago but soon learnt that they will always get pilots to do your job, make no mistake.
Pilots will never stick together as a group, never and BA know it. Sooner or later, ranks will be broken and a lot of you will be back with your tails between your legs, willing to work for anything, or next to nothing. Then you will be victims of the oldest management trick in the book, divide and rule.
The days of the glory boys at the front end of the aircraft who think their own s*** doesn't stink, are long gone. An airline has to slim down to survive.
I used to think like you lot and was very militant years ago but soon learnt that they will always get pilots to do your job, make no mistake.
Pilots will never stick together as a group, never and BA know it. Sooner or later, ranks will be broken and a lot of you will be back with your tails between your legs, willing to work for anything, or next to nothing. Then you will be victims of the oldest management trick in the book, divide and rule.
Where's Oneworld22? No predictions of DOOM for BA? He must be snoozing.
BA guys - ignore the defeatists. Their sole aim is to demoralise and dispirit you. IALPA fought their own corner in the face of the same threats and propaganda. They got their bottom lines secured as a result. Don't wimp out.
The above poster has rolled over and accepted his defeat. He is now being exploited, and is resentful that you are in a better situation. He wants to see you dragged down to his level. This would be a good outcome for him. This says everything about the value of his opinions.
Good luck. You'll win if you stand strong.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Age: 81
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having read this thread and the other regarding the BA/BALPA/OS issue, I find it amazing that BA now faces a strike by it's pilots over OS.
Surely those working in the airline industry know better than ANYONE employed today (in any line of work) that you cannot successfully fight the effects of this type of globalisation? We live in an age of great change in all industries and as much as I hate to admit it, there is simply no way that employees can dictate what a company can and cannot do anymore - those days are pretty much over. Especially when that company has become a by-word for industrial dispute and inconvenience. Competition is a very real threat as much as we would all like to pretend it isn't.
At the very least I would urge those considering industrial action to consider this: Many people will look at you and consider you all to be very lucky indeed - you do a job you love (presumably?) and one for which there is a large list of wannabees waiting to join you. You are well rewarded (always have been) and will doubtless continue to be so. Compared to those losing their jobs in manufacturing or in others non-airline industries your position is - to put it mildly - seen in a different light to how you see it...
Your pain and frustration at your employer is, in your own eyes, justified and very real. But be prepared for others to feel differently and to take their money elsewhere. At the very least, your union should be seeking to minimise the disruption to your customers by ensuring an Easter free of travel chaos.
Background: I have nothing to do with the airline industry (although I am a BAEC Silver so do fly your airline) but I do work for a union (NOT Balpa!!) and I see you being backed into a corner by your own.
My sincere hope is for some sanity to prevail in this dispute. On both sides.
Surely those working in the airline industry know better than ANYONE employed today (in any line of work) that you cannot successfully fight the effects of this type of globalisation? We live in an age of great change in all industries and as much as I hate to admit it, there is simply no way that employees can dictate what a company can and cannot do anymore - those days are pretty much over. Especially when that company has become a by-word for industrial dispute and inconvenience. Competition is a very real threat as much as we would all like to pretend it isn't.
At the very least I would urge those considering industrial action to consider this: Many people will look at you and consider you all to be very lucky indeed - you do a job you love (presumably?) and one for which there is a large list of wannabees waiting to join you. You are well rewarded (always have been) and will doubtless continue to be so. Compared to those losing their jobs in manufacturing or in others non-airline industries your position is - to put it mildly - seen in a different light to how you see it...
Your pain and frustration at your employer is, in your own eyes, justified and very real. But be prepared for others to feel differently and to take their money elsewhere. At the very least, your union should be seeking to minimise the disruption to your customers by ensuring an Easter free of travel chaos.
Background: I have nothing to do with the airline industry (although I am a BAEC Silver so do fly your airline) but I do work for a union (NOT Balpa!!) and I see you being backed into a corner by your own.
My sincere hope is for some sanity to prevail in this dispute. On both sides.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Barking
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bomber,
Circumstancial evidence to be fair. BBB's post was a straight copy of something on a secure BA server and posted here very shortly after it appeared there. The reason for my suspicion is a combination of the fact that BBB has only made one post and that he didn't make any sort of comment about the post or it's origin. Almost as if it was his own words.
Most regular posters on Prune will acknowledge that you can usually spot a BA line pilot a mile off and BBB almost certainly isn't one. You have to be one or the other in order to have had access to that statement at that time.
Remember on previous threads, there've been a few "multiple identity" BA managers posting and agreeing with themselves.
Circumstancial evidence to be fair. BBB's post was a straight copy of something on a secure BA server and posted here very shortly after it appeared there. The reason for my suspicion is a combination of the fact that BBB has only made one post and that he didn't make any sort of comment about the post or it's origin. Almost as if it was his own words.
Most regular posters on Prune will acknowledge that you can usually spot a BA line pilot a mile off and BBB almost certainly isn't one. You have to be one or the other in order to have had access to that statement at that time.
Remember on previous threads, there've been a few "multiple identity" BA managers posting and agreeing with themselves.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Dave, I see your point now. So he has access to the secure server. And I guess you're deducing that a BA pilot would start the post by saying "look at the latest bull they're feeding us". OK, all sounds reasonable. Well BBB hasn't resurfaced again so that tends to back up what you're saying.
Well, if you are right, then I guess the management are not feeling that secure if they are looking for the support of the rest of the pilot community.
Actually I think it's quite humorous to think someone on the team at the helm of a multi billion dollar international corporation is posting titbits on a pilots forum to try make the minions loose friends. I wonder how much that job pays?
Well, if you are right, then I guess the management are not feeling that secure if they are looking for the support of the rest of the pilot community.
Actually I think it's quite humorous to think someone on the team at the helm of a multi billion dollar international corporation is posting titbits on a pilots forum to try make the minions loose friends. I wonder how much that job pays?
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Camp X-Ray
Posts: 2,135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
People do post some arse on here! BA losing it's slots at Heathrow? We'd have to go on strike for 60 days before that happened, and Wee Willie and his cronies would be out of a job before we got half way to that. Something to look forward to I suppose!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Age: 38
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Question from a concerned customer
Hi there,
I am a customer of BA and wanted the honest truth from you guys. My family is going to be flying on BA on the 19th of March out to london to come and visit.
Seeing as things have not gone so well with the talks, can anyone give me an impression of what they think is going to happen in the coming day? Will my family be able to get out here on the 19th? Are there any suggestions you can make for me, as we have a lot of money spent into this trip?
I hope someone can respond. Thank you.
I am a customer of BA and wanted the honest truth from you guys. My family is going to be flying on BA on the 19th of March out to london to come and visit.
Seeing as things have not gone so well with the talks, can anyone give me an impression of what they think is going to happen in the coming day? Will my family be able to get out here on the 19th? Are there any suggestions you can make for me, as we have a lot of money spent into this trip?
I hope someone can respond. Thank you.