BALPA and BA talks breakdown
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Inconsistency
I've read some of the correspondence on this subject but not all because being a very old but not very bold ex BA pilot, I've spent the last month of my hard earned retirement on a loooong holiday. I do not understand why BALPA appears to be fighting for Open skies pilots to be on a common seniority list when they refused to let GSS co-pilots join the BA list but at the same time forced GSS to engage potential captains from mainline. If I have missed something, please tell me. I fully understand the threat to BA pilots and they have my support. However I think BALPA treated their GSS co-pilot members in a manner which is inconsistent with regard to their present position on Open Skies.
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The GSS arrangement requires all BAWC flying to be returned in-house (probably with the co-pilots) if the operation ever requires more than four (?) B744s. My understanding is that was the best deal at the time. That protection still stands. Not ideal but there it is.
Perhaps if BA had been receptive to a similar arrangement for OS (something like if it ever requires more than the initial six aircraft, it reverts to mainline), we may not have found ourselves in the current predicament. Unfortunately, that would prevent BA from doing a QANTAS/Jetstar, which is probably why it never came up.
Perhaps if BA had been receptive to a similar arrangement for OS (something like if it ever requires more than the initial six aircraft, it reverts to mainline), we may not have found ourselves in the current predicament. Unfortunately, that would prevent BA from doing a QANTAS/Jetstar, which is probably why it never came up.
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Firstly, the GSS issue is discussed repeatedly in the previous BA ballot thread. I suggest you read that for the details. Secondly, do not confuse BALPA as a whole with the BACC. BALPAs job is to look after pilots as a whole, but not to divvy up BAs works for anyone who wants a share. The BACCs role is to protect the interests of BA pilots. The GSS deal was negotiated by the BACC as the price BA had to pay to operate 744Fs without the pilots on the mainline seniority list. If there were no secondees to GSS then there would be no GSS. Incidentally, the size and scope of GSS is tied up pretty tightly with BA. Any more than 4 freighters and the whole operation reverts to mainline. No such guarantees on offer from BA for Open Lies.
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Skydrol - You (and many others posting here) have totally missed the point that BALPA and the BA pilots are trying to make. It is not about glorifying themselves, or not being happy with what they have, its about PROTECTING what they have. This is something many other pilot groups should start doing as well. There is a clear agenda amongst the British airlines to erode (further erode!) our T&Cs and it is our duty to protect the very same T&Cs.
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Capot:
Sorry if you feel I was being sanctimonious. I prefer sincerity. You can, of course, choose as you wish. 
Er, no Capot, BA management are using our passengers as their weapon of choice. Time & again, day in, day out, we voluntarily break our industrial agreements to keep the show on the road for the benefit of the travelling public (and rightly so). BA are now using our 'can-do, must-do' attitude against us-they think we will capitulate in the face of bad press and public disquiet in order to beat us. Sadly, this time, we've had enough. I will shed no tears, crocodile or otherwise, but I will (sanctimoniously) feel truly sorry for Joe Public caught in the crossfire....
If you want to get on your high-horse then suit yourself. It speaks volumes to me when all that someone can retort with is a bunch of expletives.
Skydrol Leak wrote:
You've obviously come in to this debate and shot from the hip. 
I would "be happy what you have" except that BA are going to use OpenSkies as a means of doing away with "what I have". I do consider myself more fortunate than others in this industry, but why would I want to let BA have its cake & eat it? So that I can be bitter & twisted in 5 years time wishing I'd had the backbone to stand up to these Corporate Muggers in 2008? I don't think so. I've given them increased productivity (~30% since c2001). I've given them 22% of my pension (2006/7) and I've given them licence to mess with my roster more to solve their Work Coverage problem. I'm not going to stand by and have them take my CURRENT T&Cs and have them supplanted with OS T&Cs without a fight.
I don't get my parking paid either...costs me £400/year. And what's that got to do with the price of fish? Another cogent argument. Another expletive. You're going to have to do better than that to convince me & my colleagues that we are all wrong and you are right.
I'm beginning to see why most of my colleagues avoid this site like the plague...you need the patience of a saint. Too many people jump in without educating themselves. Differing viewpoints I can take, but ignorance.........
Regards
id
But whatever the rights and wrongs of your case, for f***s sake spare us the sanctimonious bull and crocodile tears of ................
You are using your customers - the travelling public - and their anger and inconvenience as your weapon. That's what strikes are for. So cut the c**p.
If you want to get on your high-horse then suit yourself. It speaks volumes to me when all that someone can retort with is a bunch of expletives.
Skydrol Leak wrote:
I can not believe all the moaning and complaints from these BA people! Face the fact that you are one of the "chosen" and more fortunate in UK more than any person working for easy, Ryanair,eastern or for that matter Air Berlin etc...
Be happy what you have,since 85% of people doing your job in this industry don't have the chance to even get their parking paid so...bugger off.
Be happy what you have,since 85% of people doing your job in this industry don't have the chance to even get their parking paid so...bugger off.
I would "be happy what you have" except that BA are going to use OpenSkies as a means of doing away with "what I have". I do consider myself more fortunate than others in this industry, but why would I want to let BA have its cake & eat it? So that I can be bitter & twisted in 5 years time wishing I'd had the backbone to stand up to these Corporate Muggers in 2008? I don't think so. I've given them increased productivity (~30% since c2001). I've given them 22% of my pension (2006/7) and I've given them licence to mess with my roster more to solve their Work Coverage problem. I'm not going to stand by and have them take my CURRENT T&Cs and have them supplanted with OS T&Cs without a fight.
since 85% of people doing your job in this industry don't have the chance to even get their parking paid so...bugger off
You're going to have to do better than that to convince me & my colleagues that we are all wrong and you are right.I'm beginning to see why most of my colleagues avoid this site like the plague...you need the patience of a saint. Too many people jump in without educating themselves. Differing viewpoints I can take, but ignorance.........
Regards
id
There are many pilots out there in other airlines who have a very good understanding of why you need to do this and support you regardless of whether they are on inferior conditions or not. That’s because they suffered at the hands of BA management through the five year fiasco that was BACX / Bacon. This company was created out of two reasonably successful regional airlines where pilot attrition rates were relatively low - particularly amongst Captains. Probably less than one trainer left per year. Three years into Bacon and well before WW really started swinging his axe, leaving rates were up to 25% and at least half the company were actively trying to find alternative employment.
Our great leader slashed half the bases, and any route which showed any sign of sucking business from LHR was stopped dead.
So having made such a mess of the regional subsidiary operation, why do BA managers think they can make a success of OS? What has changed? What will they do that is significantly different?
Our great leader slashed half the bases, and any route which showed any sign of sucking business from LHR was stopped dead.
So having made such a mess of the regional subsidiary operation, why do BA managers think they can make a success of OS? What has changed? What will they do that is significantly different?
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Sorry but was that a quote of 3,000 staff involved in this dispute? Why do I only see a very few posting on here in such an aggressive manner. Obviously Hand Solo and Idol Detent are leading stir mongerers for the union.
A couple of decades ago I had a choice of becoming a commercial pilot or going elsewhere in the aviation industry. I chose elsewhere and have never looked back. But I always held professional pilots in a fairly high esteem.
Certain industry should not go on strike, Police, Fireman, Ambulanceman etc. But pilots I always took to be above all this. To strike is to lower yourselves in the publics eyes.
A while ago there was a very long thread on PPrune about how pilots were not viewed the same way as many years ago. The industry had lost its charisma. Now you lot want to go and confirm that pilots are just the same as any other shop floor worker. Where has that magic and pride gone?
....and by the way, in response to a comment several pages back, I do not buy a ticket to ride based on cost alone. I have never flown Squeezy Jet or Rynanair and God willing never will. I have always paid to fly with the good guys. But now I wonder why.
( and no....Mr Walsh may be driven out in the end, fall on his sacrificial sword in good dramatic pose. But it will be a rubber 'stage' sword and his back pocket will be stuffed with a golden handshake.)
A couple of decades ago I had a choice of becoming a commercial pilot or going elsewhere in the aviation industry. I chose elsewhere and have never looked back. But I always held professional pilots in a fairly high esteem.
Certain industry should not go on strike, Police, Fireman, Ambulanceman etc. But pilots I always took to be above all this. To strike is to lower yourselves in the publics eyes.
A while ago there was a very long thread on PPrune about how pilots were not viewed the same way as many years ago. The industry had lost its charisma. Now you lot want to go and confirm that pilots are just the same as any other shop floor worker. Where has that magic and pride gone?
....and by the way, in response to a comment several pages back, I do not buy a ticket to ride based on cost alone. I have never flown Squeezy Jet or Rynanair and God willing never will. I have always paid to fly with the good guys. But now I wonder why.
( and no....Mr Walsh may be driven out in the end, fall on his sacrificial sword in good dramatic pose. But it will be a rubber 'stage' sword and his back pocket will be stuffed with a golden handshake.)
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The answer VC, is that most BA pilots don't bother with this place because it's full of trolls, envious types and people who can't be bothered to read the thread but want to air their grievances anyway. Most BA pilots stay away from here for the sake of their sanity.
Perhaps your slightly dewy eyed view of the profession has withstood the test of time. The unfortunate reality for us is that we are no longer regarded as professionals by anyone but our peers. We are a resource to be sweated, a cost to be reduced. Sure, our management mouth platitudes about their appreciation for us, but by their actions they are judged. You think striking is beneath us. I don't claim to occupy such a lofty position, but there seems to be a serious shortage of suggestions from the concerned public about how we should influence our management when they refuse to budge through months of negotiation and days of conciliation. The logical conclusion to draw is that you all believe we should throw our hands in the air and say "tough luck, we'll just have to bend over and take it". Well I'm afraid we don't see it that way. Pride doesn't pay the bills buddy, and I can't take Willie Walshs assurances to the bank.
Perhaps your slightly dewy eyed view of the profession has withstood the test of time. The unfortunate reality for us is that we are no longer regarded as professionals by anyone but our peers. We are a resource to be sweated, a cost to be reduced. Sure, our management mouth platitudes about their appreciation for us, but by their actions they are judged. You think striking is beneath us. I don't claim to occupy such a lofty position, but there seems to be a serious shortage of suggestions from the concerned public about how we should influence our management when they refuse to budge through months of negotiation and days of conciliation. The logical conclusion to draw is that you all believe we should throw our hands in the air and say "tough luck, we'll just have to bend over and take it". Well I'm afraid we don't see it that way. Pride doesn't pay the bills buddy, and I can't take Willie Walshs assurances to the bank.
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Sorry but was that a quote of 3,000 staff involved in this dispute? Why do I only see a very few posting on here
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Sorry but was that a quote of 3,000 staff involved in this dispute?
Why do I only see a very few posting on here in such an aggressive manner. Obviously Hand Solo and Idol Detent are leading stir mongerers for the union.
I'm not a rep - Bog Standard line pilot fighting for what I believe is right. As for aggressive...I only bite if yer naughty!
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Evolve or die - thanks for that soundbite. Adds nothing to our understanding of the situation, but it's nice to hear the chants of the playground on this forum. I quite understand why most BA pilots do not bother with this nonsense and frequent places with debate at an intellectual level higher than that of the kindergarten.
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Skydrol leak said:
The 'chosen' - ie chosen by BA having passed their selection procedure. You're very welcome to join us skydrol, we need 400-ish pilots in the next 12 months.
We are happy with what we have, we do not ask for more, we just need to update our agreements in the face of changing legislation. Confused about your parking comment.
Now you bugger off..
I can not believe all the moaning and complaints from these BA people! Face the fact that you are one of the "chosen" and more fortunate in UK more than any person working for easy, Ryanair,eastern or for that matter Air Berlin etc...
Be happy what you have,since 85% of people doing your job in this industry don't have the chance to even get their parking paid so...bugger off.
Be happy what you have,since 85% of people doing your job in this industry don't have the chance to even get their parking paid so...bugger off.
We are happy with what we have, we do not ask for more, we just need to update our agreements in the face of changing legislation. Confused about your parking comment.
Now you bugger off..
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You are using your customers - the travelling public - and their anger and inconvenience as your weapon.
Er, no Capot, BA management are using our passengers as their weapon of choice.
You (.............have totally missed the point that .........the BA pilots are trying to make.................its about PROTECTING what they have.
...we just need to update our agreements in the face of changing legislation. Confused .............
hatcheth
I am not BA, but I am aware of their terms and conditions. How do you think they can evolve? They are already working to limits or at least the artificial limits imposed by trying to work out of LHR. They have a good rostering system, which seems to be able to produce maxmum efficiency in terms of hours on seat, so what's the probem? They are paid well, but no more than their mainline competitors and probably not much more than the so called LoCo competitors. Time to command issues and the rempval of the FS pession probably means that some FO's will be signifcantly wore off over a career span than ther equivalents in the Charter / LOco World. They they do not have ridiculous allowances. They simply get Duty pay at a rate appropriate for touring round Europe and LH.
Please explain what you mean by adapting. Adapting to what level?
I work for a LoCo, am home vritually every night and at the moment am probably earling as much per flying hour as a BA LH capt. I also have my medicals paid for and free parking.
My message to the BA pilots is: Evolve or die. Your competitors are evolving
Please explain what you mean by adapting. Adapting to what level?
I work for a LoCo, am home vritually every night and at the moment am probably earling as much per flying hour as a BA LH capt. I also have my medicals paid for and free parking.
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In terms of evolving, I mean that BA is not a state owned entity and BA staff do not have a job for life. Pilots are a commodity in an open market, as is all labour in today's global economy.
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Thanks for that Hatcheth. There is nothing in your two sentences that I was unaware of...
We have evolved over the years to be the most profitable airline in the world. How did we manage that? By standing still? Gimme strength....
BA pilots have been accused of:
Using passengers as a weapon
Not talking
Being militant
Not being flexible
Stuck in our ways
Arrogant
Chosen
Lucky
etc etc
I have only posted 30 or so messages on this forum and am tiring of the sniping, envy, jealousy and downright hatred posted by a small number of persons who quite frankly have put forward no coherent argument as to why ~3000 pilots are wrong and that they are correct. All I hear is soundbites: so typical of GB 2008. Full of vitriol and bile with nothing much to say except expletives.
How sad that some of us who actually care about our passengers and post our reasoning are immediately set upon by people who should have stood up for themselves whilst they had the chance/backbone. And now all they have left is their bitter animosity for comfort. How sad.
And with that, to the relief of a few no doubt, I will sit out the rest of this thread. I have tried to explain our reasoning and the impact that striking will have on us personally. Some, it would seem, have no intention of listening, and that, for me, is the most frustrating thing of all.
Good luck HS, Overstress & others - you have greater patience for this than I do.
We have evolved over the years to be the most profitable airline in the world. How did we manage that? By standing still? Gimme strength....
BA pilots have been accused of:
Using passengers as a weapon
Not talking
Being militant
Not being flexible
Stuck in our ways
Arrogant
Chosen
Lucky
etc etc
I have only posted 30 or so messages on this forum and am tiring of the sniping, envy, jealousy and downright hatred posted by a small number of persons who quite frankly have put forward no coherent argument as to why ~3000 pilots are wrong and that they are correct. All I hear is soundbites: so typical of GB 2008. Full of vitriol and bile with nothing much to say except expletives.
How sad that some of us who actually care about our passengers and post our reasoning are immediately set upon by people who should have stood up for themselves whilst they had the chance/backbone. And now all they have left is their bitter animosity for comfort. How sad.
And with that, to the relief of a few no doubt, I will sit out the rest of this thread. I have tried to explain our reasoning and the impact that striking will have on us personally. Some, it would seem, have no intention of listening, and that, for me, is the most frustrating thing of all.
Good luck HS, Overstress & others - you have greater patience for this than I do.