BALPA and BA talks breakdown

[Magplug]

it is such a sad indicment of this country that a company can only be deemed succesful by how much profit it makes and not by how it treats its workforce

Three things used to shape our society... Moral cause, Social responsibility and Financial need. Now there is only one - Financial greed has replaced Financial need.

Willie Walsh speaks of social responsibility in one breath whilst screwing the workforce in the next. His generation of businessmen will pride themselves on making a buck from whatever they can, be it degrading a well respected product or demoralising the workforce..... And he will take pride in doing it.

The next time your BA flight is cancelled look very carefully at the reasons for it. They will now cancel and consolidate flights at the drop of a hat, any old excuse will do as long as it diverts any blame away from BA. They end up are saving costs by flying fewer planes...... and they get away with it as nobody understands the inner workings of aviation. Is this what we expect of our national airline?

What sort of socially responsible manager takes advantage of poor foreign labour laws and make long serving International Cabin Crew redundant in order to re-employ them on lesser T&C with forced retirement at 45.

Fair Trade ?!?!

His generation will make a buck wherever they can with no morals whatsoever.... They will do whatever they can get away with. It is time this generation were held to account.

[Stoic]

The baxfactor

In view of Lufthansa's pilots' reported past strike actions and threat of strike actions (see result of Googling 'Lufthansa strike' below), should you not be transferring your custom to a country where strikes are banned by law?

Regards

Stoic

Pilots at Lufthansa Approve a Call to Strike

Published: February 27, 1997
Lufthansa pilots have voted overwhelmingly to strike over wages and contract duration, their union said yesterday. But no immediate walkout was expected. The German white-collar union began a strike vote after wage negotiations broke down in mid-January.
Though 87 percent of the pilots voted for a strike and they alone could effectively ground the German airline's planes, it was not certain that they would do so. The union had said it needed a 70 percent approval from all voting members at Lufthansa to begin a strike. While a majority of cabin crew and ground personnel approved a strike, the total vote fell below 70 percent. Union negotiators are to discuss the outcome of the vote and decide their next step tomorrow in Hamburg.


Friday, 4 May, 2001, 08:50 GMT 09:50 UK
Lufthansa pilots strike
[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/MICHAEL/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.jpg[/IMG]

Lufthansa will be hit by weekly strikes by pilots
Lufthansa pilots went on the first of their weekly strikes on Friday, forcing the cancellation of most of the airline's flights out of Frankfurt airport.
"We expect there will be virtually no flights departing in the first 12 hours of Friday," said Michael von Pilar, a spokesman for the pilots' union.
The pilots have voted to hit the Europe's second largest airline with weekly strikes for the next four weeks over demands for higher wages.
The first stoppage took place from midnight Thursday (2200 GMT) until noon on Friday (1000 GMT).
The union warned it could also take unannounced "small, short-term" measures.
Lufthansa shares fell 2.5% on the news and are now down by about a quarter since hitting a year high on 2 January.

[Cavitation]

Hand solo - If someone had said a decade ago that China would be the dominant world economy, that the US and the UK would have to go to them to raise money, you'd have laughed.

The pilots may not be around this year - but what about 5 years time? Who wouldn't lay a bet that India and China's booming economies don't see a huge surge in the amount of trained pilots (like thousands of software developers being trained in the last 5 years and now working here) - I assume there is good money to be made in it as a career choice so I would fully expect the numbers wanting to train to increase in the developing worlds.

My point is that we all like to think we are a 'special case' - but the fact is no one can afford to sit in an ivory tower and say "not me - I'm special"

Just because things change in a way you don't want them to, doesn't make the situation any less real - whether you strike or not, whether you get what you want or not, someone always ends up paying with their job

[idol detent]

It's pretty predictable that every 6-12 months one group or another in BA threatens strike action. Last time it was the cabin crew, now its the pilots.

...and if we do go on strike it will be the first time in nearly 3 decades that BA pilots have done so. And it will be with a heavy heart because the travelling public deserve better.

Direct your ire at BA management. We ask for no improvement to our T&Cs. We ask for no money. We are willing to do this for the cost-base that BA 'needs'. All we ask is a common seniority list.

BBB wrote:

We are disappointed that BALPA has chosen to walk away from the talks led by the conciliation service, ACAS.

We did not. BA said take it or leave it. We are still willing to talk.

We do not want a conflict with them [the pilots]

So why ignore our concerns & refuse to talk for 6 months?

and have not sought one.

So why did BA walk out of the Standing Conference, and now, offer us something that they knew would be unacceptable to us?

We have offered binding assurances that OpenSkies will pose no threat to the terms, conditions and job security of British Airways pilots

Downright lie. Verbal assurances have no validity. If they can offer assurances verbally, then why can they not bring themselves to put pen to paper and amend Schedule K?

Prospects for BA flight crew have never been better

Couldn't agree more. We want to be part of this new venture. Why exclude us when we have stated all along that we will do it to your costings?

Our plans for expansion at Heathrow and Gatwick mean we will be recruiting more than 300 new BA pilots in the next two years, as the London-based fleet grows to more than 240 aircraft.

Err, that's all pretty much been the case since late last year when we agreed to Work Coverage issues that we negotiated (at much cost to the pilots' bidding 'freedoms') which will cover retirements & for the first time see Reserve Pilots being calculated properly. At the moment the 'Reserve' number of pilots is under-resourced. Three hundred pilots & 240 a/c over two years ain't expansion - it's treading water (more-or-less). Nice try though.

Our offer also included making available to BA pilots 50 per cent of flight crew vacancies for the six aircraft currently planned to go into the new airline

The key word here is 'planned'. Anything over-and-above six; we get no say whatsoever. What if OS gets to fifty, or a hundred and fifty?

while protecting job security and career progression in BA

Tell that to the FOs who will wait a lifetime for a command! Taken straight from the Boston Consultancy Group's book that one...

OpenSkies is a new airline in a highly competitive market from Continental Europe to the US, and the terms and conditions for its staff must reflect that.

And I'll say it again. We offered to do it on BA's costings. They flatly said "no". Why?

BALPA says that terms and conditions for OpenSkies pilots must match those at BA as soon as the airline becomes profitable.

BALPA have stated all along that if the business can afford an increase in the T&Cs of OpenSkies pilots it will be aiming for that. Just like LGW. Just like any good Union should. It is important to emphasize that the key word here is 'if'. We have no desire to see OS fail, assuming the pilots are on the MSL. We wish it to succeed. Should the pilots not be on the MSL then we hope it falls on it's 4rse before it becomes the dreaded trojan horse like Jetstar, ClickAir etc.

This would generate cost and complexity that the new carrier could not sustain. OpenSkies would not be viable - restricting our ability as a company to compete by setting up a European business and putting at risk the creation of 350 new jobs

Utter tosh. BA have not, ever, costed Mainline crews doing W-patterns. They have no idea if it would be cheaper or more expensive to do so. BA will be charging full BA fares in OS. Are we really to believe that given its (supposedly lower) cost base it will lose money if pilots are on the same Seniority List? Given that the pilots have offered to do it for the price BA wanted? It simply does not add up, nor make any sense.

We felt it right and fair to give BALPA private notice that we have a valid legal claim against them before they took the disproportionate step of calling a strike. If strike dates are issued, we will act to protect our customers by applying for an injunction.

Good luck to them. My Union has been at pains to follow the letter of the law so the injunction should fail. BA, as usual, have lied and 'spun' to it heart's content.

We must act to protect our customers and explore every option to prevent the massive disruption a strike would cause.

Likewise. Just change 'customers' to 'members'. We too feel for our customers caught in this crossfire, engineered, from my perspective, wholly by BA.

We have made ourselves available to talk with BALPA at any time in order to find a peaceful solution

Well it took us 6 months to get you to talk in the first place. We then talked for a few weeks and you said "Take it or leave it". YOU walked out of the Standing Conference. We agreed to concilliation. You again said "Take it or leave it". YOU again walked out. WE are still willing to listen to you despite your intransigence. You had better get a move on. You have only got just over a week left...

Meanwhile, to the travelling public who put up with the embarrassment that is BA and endure the calamity that is BAA/Heathrow, our sincere and heartfelt apologies for the grief that you will surely suffer. 99.9% of BA pilots have no desire to strike and inconvenience you, but I am afraid we have been left no choice. Strike we will.

[pacamack]

I'm still gobsmacked that a TU is fighting to protect a mechanism that constrains a member's ability to move between carriers in the pursuit of better terms and conditions?

[Hand Solo]

Yes but then you never were the sharpest tool in the box pacamack.

[Capot]

Strike if you must. And destroy your employer, perhaps, in the process. I really don't care what happens. A pox on both your houses.

But whatever the rights and wrongs of your case, for f***s sake spare us the sanctimonious bull and crocodile tears of ................

And it will be with a heavy heart because the travelling public deserve better.

You are using your customers - the travelling public - and their anger and inconvenience as your weapon. That's what strikes are for. So cut the c**p.

[Hand Solo]

I'm not. I'm using the huge amount of lost revenue for BA and the inconvenience of having their aircraft stranded all over the world as my weapon. What you think of it has absolutely nothing to do with how this battle plays out. If BA decided to fly all the aircraft as freighters only I's dtill be out on strike.

[toro]

Capot,

swear properly if you must... but I can absolutely assure you in the 12 years I flown with BA I have never seen any arrogant or uncaring attitude from a pilot towards passengers; more like utter frustration that we are prevented from providing the service....yes SERVICE that you and all the other passengers deserve. Non of us go to work with the intention of failing in our job. Its extremely ignorant of you to slag off a group of highly motivated and professional men & women. (that includes all airlines)

would it be true to suggest that you don't personaly know any BA pilots because the attitudes you assume we have went out many years ago.??

[CaptainProp]

The pilots may not be around this year - but what about 5 years time? Who wouldn't lay a bet that India and China's booming economies don't see a huge surge in the amount of trained pilots (like thousands of software developers being trained in the last 5 years and now working here) - I assume there is good money to be made in it as a career choice so I would fully expect the numbers wanting to train to increase in the developing worlds.

No, does not work quite that easy. The Chinese FTO's are maxed out. Recent figures shows China to end up with a pilot shortage of about 8-9000....at the end of 2011 (2012). Besides usually the problem in Asia is not licensed pilots, its the lack of experienced and well trained pilots, like the ones flying for BA.

Good luck to the BA guys and gals!!

CP

[Ex Cargo Clown]

pacamack has to be on a wind-up surely ???

It's not about preventing employees moving from carrier to carrier.....

Have I bitten on that bait ???

[pacamack]

Yes but then you never were the sharpest tool in the box pacamack.

Another disagreement with a pilot, another personal insult. I detect a pattern emerging. It's no wonder BALPA are having problems trying to get a resolution through ACAS.

[Hand Solo]

It's no wonder BALPA are having problems trying to get a resolution through ACAS.

Touche my friend.

[interpreter]

Another view

If I may can I give you a view of BA from the independent travel agents' standpoint. Almost everybody in the business regard BA as arrogant, selfrighteous, pompous and deserving of lost business. Their attitude towards customers and agents is universally seen to be apalling. Naturally this is relative. Personally I have always found the CC good - pehaps surly sometimes and with some members looking as if they were working on the H P Heracles - and the pilots I know and meet no better or worse than others.

If this strike takes place there will be no sympathy from the general public - there very rarely is for strikers but it will damage the profitability of BA and somebody is going to suffer. Who do you feel has the "whip hand" - Walsh or the BALPA leaders? Walsh has I can assure you. His role permits him to take whatever action is necessary in the interests of the company and if the very impressive ballot has not moved him the strike itself certainly will not. It may just mean a marginal improvement in terms but they will soon be dissipated by planned cost recovery action from the management.

My advice - keep talking. There is ALWAYS a satisfacory compromise BUT I really would strongly advise against the strike. The "glad all over" feeling you may get from seeing a large turn-out will fade when the changes to meet the cost of the strike to the company begin to come home to roost. Good luck but TALK TALK TALK.

[Hand Solo]

Once again......

Walsh has I can assure you. His role permits him to take whatever action is necessary in the interests of the company and if the very impressive ballot has not moved him the strike itself certainly will not

No it does not. There are laws relating to industrial action, and whilst BA's management have shown themselves to pay scant regard to the law, they don't get away with it. An impressive strike ballot was never going to move him. Grounded aircraft and no income will. He's got form on that.

It may just mean a marginal improvement in terms but they will soon be dissipated by planned cost recovery action from the management.

How many times must it be said? We are not seeking any improvement in our terms.

My advice - keep talking

We have been trying to talk since June, actually talking since December and have returned for five days of talking after the ballot result. BA has not moved one inch.

The "glad all over" feeling you may get from seeing a large turn-out will fade when the changes to meet the cost of the strike to the company begin to come home to roost

There was no glad all over feeling in BA, everybody knew a messy strike would be necessary to change to companys mind. Perhaps you don't understand that the future for BA pilots if we lose this one is far, far worse than the costs the company might seek to recover from us. Thats what the whole dispute is about.

[CanAV8R]

interpreter,

BALPA has been talking for sometime. The option to go back to the table after the strong mandate was taken in hopes of a resolution. BA more than likely used these talks as a delaying tactic. We are out of options and it is time to show the company that quite simply enough is enough. The contempt that the company shows on a day to day basis to our customers and partners like yourself is a major source of fuel to the fire in our fight. We day in day out see the frustration of the people who pay our wages. Now BA want us to pay for it.

Line in the sand I am afraid, and the feeling is much deeper than our managers believe. None of this want this but it is what it is, and the fun and games are over.

[Walnut]

"Idol Detent" I believe sums it up perfectly.
The company counsel (BACC) will meet shortly and review last weeks sham talks. They have gone through all the hoops and assuming they are still resolute will be planning the dispute in great detail.
Make no mistake it will be planned like a military operation.Under current industrial law an official dispute gives strikers significant protection, even if BA sacks its pilot workforce, 90 days has to elapse before they are able to recruit replacement pilots. How they hope to find, train, and organise the replacement of 3000 skilled people will be impossible. Clearly they will seek to cherry pick those they want back, but as a condition of returning to work the union will seek reinstatment of all as a precondition.
To illustrate how BA had no intention of reaching an agreement, one only has to look at March's "High Life" Mag, in which there is an article about the OS project. They had the arrogance to publish this article when they they were telling the travelling public at precisely the same moment they were at ACAS seeking conciliation.
Hold fast lads, determined pilots are very difficult to beat, we have all seen how just a little hicup at LHR causes significant problems, this dispute will be nothing to whats gone before. I shall be very interested to see the BA share price next week.

[GobonaStick]

I'm going to wait for Iberia to launch a take-over bid when BA's share price falls in. Then the Spanish will be able to bring the main UK airline's passenger service down to the same Third World level to which they've already reduced the UK's main airport.

[Capot]

toro

would it be true to suggest that you don't personaly know any BA pilots because the attitudes you assume we have went out many years ago.??v

No it would not be true, as it happens...................

I didn't assume any attitude, I copied from a post made at 1904 today.

I think you missed the point; I was protesting at the stupidity of people who strike in order to lose their employer a great deal of money, by causing their customers to go elsewhere; in short, using the customers as a weapon.

It is so like BA staff to assume that the customers will simply come back again when they decide to go back to work, because "BA is best".

Read interpreter's post very carefully.

Conduct your battles with management in private, through the courts or however you like, including just quitting if BA is so awful an employer. There's a shortage of aircrew; I'm sure you'll find a job somewhere very soon. Not quite the same terms as BA, of course, but there you go, that's the real world.

[Skydrol Leak]

I can not believe all the moaning and complaints from these BA people! Face the fact that you are one of the "chosen" and more fortunate in UK more than any person working for easy, Ryanair,eastern or for that matter Air Berlin etc...
Be happy what you have,since 85% of people doing your job in this industry don't have the chance to even get their parking paid so...bugger off.

Cheers