Frustrated (?) pilots and security screening
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I have been reluctant to point out security breeches on pprune for a long time, because it is potentially passing info to terrorists. However, there is so much info on this thread now I don't think it matters any more!!
Anyway, there are two huge disgraceful inconsistencies I see regularly.
1. At on major UK airport the police walk through staff security without removing radios, bobby hats or any of the regalia they carry. They obviously set off the detectors, but are not searched. The police has been infiltrated by reporters, so why not terrorists. There has never been a case of a terrorist getting a job as an airline pilot then committing a terror act. There are terrorists using the police force as a method of gaining power in many countries in which there is a power struggle, but in the UK it is restricted to reporters looking for a storey at the moment!! As an airline pilot I WILL NOW DEMAND that the police are searched when I see it happening.
2. Same goes for Customs Officers at another airport. They bring through CARS without the boots being searched. A customs officer’s family at gunpoint could end my life and the life of my passengers. THEY MUST BE SEARCHED.
I really think these exceptions to the rule are disgusting while pilots are being exposed to unnecessarily high levels of security
Anyway, there are two huge disgraceful inconsistencies I see regularly.
1. At on major UK airport the police walk through staff security without removing radios, bobby hats or any of the regalia they carry. They obviously set off the detectors, but are not searched. The police has been infiltrated by reporters, so why not terrorists. There has never been a case of a terrorist getting a job as an airline pilot then committing a terror act. There are terrorists using the police force as a method of gaining power in many countries in which there is a power struggle, but in the UK it is restricted to reporters looking for a storey at the moment!! As an airline pilot I WILL NOW DEMAND that the police are searched when I see it happening.
2. Same goes for Customs Officers at another airport. They bring through CARS without the boots being searched. A customs officer’s family at gunpoint could end my life and the life of my passengers. THEY MUST BE SEARCHED.
I really think these exceptions to the rule are disgusting while pilots are being exposed to unnecessarily high levels of security
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You dont have much imagination.
If I were a potential terrorist, and knew that crew were not being searched at security, the first thing I'd do is buy / make / steal a flight crew uniform, get airside, and plant a bomb somewhere. I wouldnt necessarily want to fly a plane and crash it.
I'm somewhat appalled that some professional commercial pilots see themselves as being above the needs of security. If you bypass security you may make life more convenient for yourselves, but you open a gaping insecure hole for everyone else.
If I were a potential terrorist, and knew that crew were not being searched at security, the first thing I'd do is buy / make / steal a flight crew uniform, get airside, and plant a bomb somewhere. I wouldnt necessarily want to fly a plane and crash it.
I'm somewhat appalled that some professional commercial pilots see themselves as being above the needs of security. If you bypass security you may make life more convenient for yourselves, but you open a gaping insecure hole for everyone else.
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Frankly unless this government gets a handle on security and stops knee jerk measures the industry is going to grind to a halt.
As for the screening of crew the whole issue at airports like Gatwick is nonsense. I get searched, asked to remove my shoes and am told I can't take drinks, Leatherman’s or screwdrivers to work anymore. However, they seem perfectly happy for me to take command of a 230 ton aeroplane and sit with any number of items on my flight deck that could do far more damage than a screwdriver! At other airports crew and passengers go through the same security screening, this to me makes no sense, crew and passengers should always go through separate areas.
I doubt the security in the UK will put off any determined terrorist. The security measures at some overseas airports void a lot of the precautions in the UK anyway! The best way to ensure security is for our government to tighten our boarders and do something about the large number of persons in this country who should not be here! I would also like to see an end to political correctness and see the security services given far more power to deal with those who clearly support the aims of those who perpetrate these acts either by deed or support in the form of protests. Such individuals in my view should be shown the door or charged with treason!
As for the screening of crew the whole issue at airports like Gatwick is nonsense. I get searched, asked to remove my shoes and am told I can't take drinks, Leatherman’s or screwdrivers to work anymore. However, they seem perfectly happy for me to take command of a 230 ton aeroplane and sit with any number of items on my flight deck that could do far more damage than a screwdriver! At other airports crew and passengers go through the same security screening, this to me makes no sense, crew and passengers should always go through separate areas.
I doubt the security in the UK will put off any determined terrorist. The security measures at some overseas airports void a lot of the precautions in the UK anyway! The best way to ensure security is for our government to tighten our boarders and do something about the large number of persons in this country who should not be here! I would also like to see an end to political correctness and see the security services given far more power to deal with those who clearly support the aims of those who perpetrate these acts either by deed or support in the form of protests. Such individuals in my view should be shown the door or charged with treason!
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rsuggit...
If the terrorist doesn't want to crash a plane but "only" blow up a lot of people, why would he bother going airside?
He would probably simply walk into the check in area with a bag full of explosives and....
Ahhh, gave you an idea now? Your next suggestion will be to screen all pilots at the parking lot...
If the terrorist doesn't want to crash a plane but "only" blow up a lot of people, why would he bother going airside?
He would probably simply walk into the check in area with a bag full of explosives and....
Ahhh, gave you an idea now? Your next suggestion will be to screen all pilots at the parking lot...
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Good morning,
if I may add some points to the discussion:
First of all, it is uther nonsense to believe that you can secure a large object like an international airport. It´s just impossible, there will be inevitably trucks going through unchecked, police officers passing with guns, holes in the fence if you want to keep it more simple, etc. etc. Since I am working in the GA sector, I find it surprising how different the various security checks are. It can go as far as a half naked walk through the x-ray followed by a frisking which gets dangerously close to sexual harrasment (with the family jewels being moved from left to right to check inbetween, I kid you not). However at other airports there is no security at all, basically you walk straight to the plane, full stop. Both these airports would allow me to fly to say LHR and there I am still on airside. I do not mind the security checks itself if they would suit a purpous, however find it difficult to accept that at airport A, I have to take of my shoes and at B I can walk through with an uzi if I felt like.
Offcourse looking at the big picture it makes more sense. I am not a suspect for terrorism, neither are my passengers. Real safety agents and police officers know this, so they leave me alone. However there is a 50% chance I will pass through an airport which is either window dressing for good looks, or they have those 20 year old boys who love to see a skipper take his shoes of....
All of this is avoiding the real problem which is the question of WHY? Why does somebody feel the urge to kill himself along with a hundred other people. Why do people fly into buildings, or drive through the front side of the terminal. And what are we doing to make them go mad like that. If you look at the background of suicide bombers in the middle east, it is clear that they would rather sit in there back garden living a long and happy live, but because of religion, politics or social pressure they feel obligated to take the road of martyrship. This is fuelled by our actions in the west and even more today with the cowboys from the new world driving like madman through a land that they do not understand and that they do not want to understand. Just to make something very clear: I am not defending terrorism, I am just saying that I do not believe we can win the war on terrorism with guns. And we will surely not win it by taking away a babies bottle of water...... A bit of understanding and respect will go a lot further then to start shooting or making everybody nervous with this whole code yellow, code red nonsense (any psychologist will tell you that this will drive people mad in the end).
Ohh, and on the point of skipping the cue at the airport, well I do it all the time and do not feel bad about it, because I simple cannot affort to wait half an hour for 8 times a day. I must be passing the security about 1000 times per year. The avarage pax about 2 times a year. There is a big difference there. Never has anybody bothered me for jumping the cue, they do understand.
if I may add some points to the discussion:
First of all, it is uther nonsense to believe that you can secure a large object like an international airport. It´s just impossible, there will be inevitably trucks going through unchecked, police officers passing with guns, holes in the fence if you want to keep it more simple, etc. etc. Since I am working in the GA sector, I find it surprising how different the various security checks are. It can go as far as a half naked walk through the x-ray followed by a frisking which gets dangerously close to sexual harrasment (with the family jewels being moved from left to right to check inbetween, I kid you not). However at other airports there is no security at all, basically you walk straight to the plane, full stop. Both these airports would allow me to fly to say LHR and there I am still on airside. I do not mind the security checks itself if they would suit a purpous, however find it difficult to accept that at airport A, I have to take of my shoes and at B I can walk through with an uzi if I felt like.
Offcourse looking at the big picture it makes more sense. I am not a suspect for terrorism, neither are my passengers. Real safety agents and police officers know this, so they leave me alone. However there is a 50% chance I will pass through an airport which is either window dressing for good looks, or they have those 20 year old boys who love to see a skipper take his shoes of....
All of this is avoiding the real problem which is the question of WHY? Why does somebody feel the urge to kill himself along with a hundred other people. Why do people fly into buildings, or drive through the front side of the terminal. And what are we doing to make them go mad like that. If you look at the background of suicide bombers in the middle east, it is clear that they would rather sit in there back garden living a long and happy live, but because of religion, politics or social pressure they feel obligated to take the road of martyrship. This is fuelled by our actions in the west and even more today with the cowboys from the new world driving like madman through a land that they do not understand and that they do not want to understand. Just to make something very clear: I am not defending terrorism, I am just saying that I do not believe we can win the war on terrorism with guns. And we will surely not win it by taking away a babies bottle of water...... A bit of understanding and respect will go a lot further then to start shooting or making everybody nervous with this whole code yellow, code red nonsense (any psychologist will tell you that this will drive people mad in the end).
Ohh, and on the point of skipping the cue at the airport, well I do it all the time and do not feel bad about it, because I simple cannot affort to wait half an hour for 8 times a day. I must be passing the security about 1000 times per year. The avarage pax about 2 times a year. There is a big difference there. Never has anybody bothered me for jumping the cue, they do understand.
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You know, I dont know what a terrorist might want to do. We've seen them taking over aircraft and crashing them, we've seen them trying to ram doors and get cars into airport buildings, and doubtless we'll see them doing many other things that we hadnt anticipated in the future. So lets just close as many doors as we can, eh ? That's something we all have to take part in.
expat400:
Even beter would be to screen pilots when they apply for their job!!
Hold on....wait a minute, that is already being done. Sorry. Just shows how senseless it is.
As someone said before, feels like football players queueing up together with the fans at a football stadium.
Your next suggestion will be to screen all pilots at the parking lot...
Hold on....wait a minute, that is already being done. Sorry. Just shows how senseless it is.
As someone said before, feels like football players queueing up together with the fans at a football stadium.
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quote from rsuggit: "I'm somewhat appalled that some professional commercial pilots see themselves as being above the needs of security. If you bypass security you may make life more convenient for yourselves, but you open a gaping insecure hole for everyone else."
I'm so glad you used the word "some" in that sentence!!
Firstly re-read (or read) my post just above yours. That says most of what i want to tell you and proves that i am not part of "some".
Secondly, i want to say that "very few", as opposed to "some", pilots regard themselves as being above security. "Almost all" pilots see it as a necessary function. What is being pointed out here is that the function of security has fundemental error in its direction and emphasis.
The point made over and over again by "some" pilots is that real pilots do not destroy aircraft and kill people (not on purpose at least) and if they wanted to they have all the means they require at their disposal without the need to invent exploding toothpaste. So it is more important to determine if the person passing through security dressed as a pilot is an imposter or the real thing, rather than taking his shoes off and rattling the crown jewels. Oh, and then make sure he/she doesn't have an axe in his flight bag (surely somebody has told security about the dicotomy, they must feel so stupid when they take a pocket knife away from us, or maybe "some" of them are not bright enough to realise??).
I hope i have made this clear, in a polite a way as possible. This has been said many times over by "some" discerning pilots, but the message has got watered by, eh, sewage!
I'm so glad you used the word "some" in that sentence!!
Firstly re-read (or read) my post just above yours. That says most of what i want to tell you and proves that i am not part of "some".
Secondly, i want to say that "very few", as opposed to "some", pilots regard themselves as being above security. "Almost all" pilots see it as a necessary function. What is being pointed out here is that the function of security has fundemental error in its direction and emphasis.
The point made over and over again by "some" pilots is that real pilots do not destroy aircraft and kill people (not on purpose at least) and if they wanted to they have all the means they require at their disposal without the need to invent exploding toothpaste. So it is more important to determine if the person passing through security dressed as a pilot is an imposter or the real thing, rather than taking his shoes off and rattling the crown jewels. Oh, and then make sure he/she doesn't have an axe in his flight bag (surely somebody has told security about the dicotomy, they must feel so stupid when they take a pocket knife away from us, or maybe "some" of them are not bright enough to realise??).
I hope i have made this clear, in a polite a way as possible. This has been said many times over by "some" discerning pilots, but the message has got watered by, eh, sewage!
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C'mon girls,
This nonsense "they screen me, then I go take control of the airplane, why should I be screened", is ridiculous. Do you know who every "pilot" is that goes through a security gate? Are you really who your ID says you are? Are you really the pilot of flt XXX? Lots of stories about IDs, passports, pilot and cc crew uniforms going missing. Do you want all 4-20 cabin crew going through security as well? Of course you do. Get off this, "I have a crash ax and control of the airplane......" nonsense. I don't know who your are and you don't know who I am. Quit whinning and just get on with it. I hate doing the drill as much as the next person....take your shoes off, take your belt off, take you computer out of your flight kit, do this, do that........the whole idea is to limit access to those that might do harm. They key word, "limit". I don't want someone on my a/c that just showed a fake ID, in a fake uniform and bypassed through security that might have some "goodies" with him. Think outside the box, fellas.
This nonsense "they screen me, then I go take control of the airplane, why should I be screened", is ridiculous. Do you know who every "pilot" is that goes through a security gate? Are you really who your ID says you are? Are you really the pilot of flt XXX? Lots of stories about IDs, passports, pilot and cc crew uniforms going missing. Do you want all 4-20 cabin crew going through security as well? Of course you do. Get off this, "I have a crash ax and control of the airplane......" nonsense. I don't know who your are and you don't know who I am. Quit whinning and just get on with it. I hate doing the drill as much as the next person....take your shoes off, take your belt off, take you computer out of your flight kit, do this, do that........the whole idea is to limit access to those that might do harm. They key word, "limit". I don't want someone on my a/c that just showed a fake ID, in a fake uniform and bypassed through security that might have some "goodies" with him. Think outside the box, fellas.
Last edited by TangoUniform; 5th Aug 2007 at 12:18.
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Lets see this from the pint of view of a terrorist.
You steal a uniform and get hold of a pass. Are 'security' going to stop you? No.
You get airside, now what? I mean how on earth are you going to get airborne? You've no chance of getting an airliner, complete with crew and pax off the deck!
Now at a small regional airport, you might just be able to get airborne in a decent sized bizjet (maybe after a bit of web or book based training) and do some damage somewhere.
So maybe the 'threat' (which presumably we are trying to frustrate by searching crew so thoroughly) from bogus pilots is actually greater at the very places with the least security.
btw I still maintain that a brief contact with 'security' (check pass etc) is necessary, but I really am sure that the full shoes off, x-ray confiscation of 'contraband' regime in force now is way over the top.
You steal a uniform and get hold of a pass. Are 'security' going to stop you? No.
You get airside, now what? I mean how on earth are you going to get airborne? You've no chance of getting an airliner, complete with crew and pax off the deck!
Now at a small regional airport, you might just be able to get airborne in a decent sized bizjet (maybe after a bit of web or book based training) and do some damage somewhere.
So maybe the 'threat' (which presumably we are trying to frustrate by searching crew so thoroughly) from bogus pilots is actually greater at the very places with the least security.
btw I still maintain that a brief contact with 'security' (check pass etc) is necessary, but I really am sure that the full shoes off, x-ray confiscation of 'contraband' regime in force now is way over the top.
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tabgo uniform...thats exactly what i was saying a year ago. but i've changed my mind. i have read what some more learned people than me have written and i have listened, and finally agreed. this goes way beyond the superficial stuff you suggest (fake uniforms, IDs etc).
This is not whining or nonsense in way. There is a better way of doing it.
Lets face, i don't need to take control of an airplane. I already have it!!! But i may be brainwashed by extremists into believing that killing myself and all my passengers will make the world a better place. There is a process, known in security, as BioScreening and a number of other related security processes. They are fallible but much better than anything we've got at the moment. By doing REAL background checks and REAL identity checks you can be "more" certain that the pilot in question is who he or she say they are, and therefore not willing to commit mass murder.
your "enough of this whining" tone is "pub talk". Elbow on the bar, holding court with your mates slagging off the whingers. (Exactly they way i deal with things
) But i was convinced otherwise, so if you don't believe have a chat with a security person who holds a position higher that shoe remover, and they may be aware of some of the more expensive and safer ways to do things, but the home office or the BAA wont stump up for.
So TU, i guess you will either listen, or throw a punch because it something you don't understand
This is not whining or nonsense in way. There is a better way of doing it.
Lets face, i don't need to take control of an airplane. I already have it!!! But i may be brainwashed by extremists into believing that killing myself and all my passengers will make the world a better place. There is a process, known in security, as BioScreening and a number of other related security processes. They are fallible but much better than anything we've got at the moment. By doing REAL background checks and REAL identity checks you can be "more" certain that the pilot in question is who he or she say they are, and therefore not willing to commit mass murder.
your "enough of this whining" tone is "pub talk". Elbow on the bar, holding court with your mates slagging off the whingers. (Exactly they way i deal with things
) But i was convinced otherwise, so if you don't believe have a chat with a security person who holds a position higher that shoe remover, and they may be aware of some of the more expensive and safer ways to do things, but the home office or the BAA wont stump up for.So TU, i guess you will either listen, or throw a punch because it something you don't understand
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C'mon girls,
This nonsense "they screen me, then I go take control of the airplane, why should I be screened", is ridiculous. Do you know who every "pilot" is that goes through a security gate? Are you really who your ID says you are? Are you really the pilot of flt XXX? Lots of stories about IDs, passports, pilot and cc crew uniforms going missing. Do you want all 4-20 cabin crew going through security as well? Of course you do. Get off this, "I have a crash ax and control of the airplane......" nonsense. I don't know who your are and you don't know who I am. Quit whinning and just get on with it. I hate doing the drill as much as the next person....take your shoes off, take your belt off, take you computer out of your flight kit, do this, do that........the whole idea is to limit access to those that might do harm. They key word, "limit". I don't want someone on my a/c that just showed a fake ID, in a fake uniform and bypassed through security that might have some "goodies" with him. Think outside the box, fellas.
This nonsense "they screen me, then I go take control of the airplane, why should I be screened", is ridiculous. Do you know who every "pilot" is that goes through a security gate? Are you really who your ID says you are? Are you really the pilot of flt XXX? Lots of stories about IDs, passports, pilot and cc crew uniforms going missing. Do you want all 4-20 cabin crew going through security as well? Of course you do. Get off this, "I have a crash ax and control of the airplane......" nonsense. I don't know who your are and you don't know who I am. Quit whinning and just get on with it. I hate doing the drill as much as the next person....take your shoes off, take your belt off, take you computer out of your flight kit, do this, do that........the whole idea is to limit access to those that might do harm. They key word, "limit". I don't want someone on my a/c that just showed a fake ID, in a fake uniform and bypassed through security that might have some "goodies" with him. Think outside the box, fellas.
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Geez, You guys still don't get it. Of course bioscreening, separate screening, more sensible security checks of said crew would be a vast improvement. But what many are saying here is, "why should I be subject to the same screening since I will be in control of the aircraft. If I want to do damage, I can certainly do it once my hands are on the controls".
Take it from the point of view of securing the airport, not just the aircraft. How do you identify yourself as an operating crew? By showing a little plastic ID and being in uniform. But, let's say you're a bad guy that just wants to get into the secure area with some bad stuff. "Hey, I am a pilot, I don't need to go through this whole security thing because I am in uniform, have a plastic ID and I will have control of the a/c".
Get the point. Until there is a better more sensible type screening for all airport personnel and flight crew, and even pax, everyone should be subject to the same type of screening.
So again, suck it up, stop the whinning, and work for a solution with biometrics or some other form of security. You get head of the line priviledges at most airports or seperate screening.Give me a better solution that doesn't cost anymore than what we have right now. I'm all for it. In the states they did it with jumpseat by implementing CASS. The gate agent can access your identity. But again, I don't want some chucklehead or disgruntled employee going through security with some bad stuff, as was done in the '80s with PSA and later with FedEx. Both disgruntled employees that got through with weapons. But hey, they were employees.
Take it from the point of view of securing the airport, not just the aircraft. How do you identify yourself as an operating crew? By showing a little plastic ID and being in uniform. But, let's say you're a bad guy that just wants to get into the secure area with some bad stuff. "Hey, I am a pilot, I don't need to go through this whole security thing because I am in uniform, have a plastic ID and I will have control of the a/c".
Get the point. Until there is a better more sensible type screening for all airport personnel and flight crew, and even pax, everyone should be subject to the same type of screening.
So again, suck it up, stop the whinning, and work for a solution with biometrics or some other form of security. You get head of the line priviledges at most airports or seperate screening.Give me a better solution that doesn't cost anymore than what we have right now. I'm all for it. In the states they did it with jumpseat by implementing CASS. The gate agent can access your identity. But again, I don't want some chucklehead or disgruntled employee going through security with some bad stuff, as was done in the '80s with PSA and later with FedEx. Both disgruntled employees that got through with weapons. But hey, they were employees.
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Take it from the point of view of securing the airport, not just the aircraft. How do you identify yourself as an operating crew? By showing a little plastic ID and being in uniform. But, let's say you're a bad guy that just wants to get into the secure area with some bad stuff. "Hey, I am a pilot, I don't need to go through this whole security thing because I am in uniform, have a plastic ID and I will have control of the a/c".
) go through a separate security check point, not in site of passengers, how can this happen? Well if it can happen for them, it can happen for operating crew, duh!
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"You steal a uniform and get hold of a pass. Are 'security' going to stop you? No.
You get airside, now what? I mean how on earth are you going to get airborne? You've no chance of getting an airliner, complete with crew and pax off the deck!"
But I dont want to get a plane off the deck. If I can get airside with some sort of explosive device(s) in my posession, and if I can get to the baggage area, I'll try and plant them in baggage that's waiting to be loaded. A ferw hours later three planes in flight crash due to explosions in the baggage hold.
Or maybe I can just destroy a plane on the ground.
Or get to a fuel truck
Or the fuel farm
Or an antenna
Or just park a car on the runway.
You get airside, now what? I mean how on earth are you going to get airborne? You've no chance of getting an airliner, complete with crew and pax off the deck!"
But I dont want to get a plane off the deck. If I can get airside with some sort of explosive device(s) in my posession, and if I can get to the baggage area, I'll try and plant them in baggage that's waiting to be loaded. A ferw hours later three planes in flight crash due to explosions in the baggage hold.
Or maybe I can just destroy a plane on the ground.
Or get to a fuel truck
Or the fuel farm
Or an antenna
Or just park a car on the runway.
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I'm somewhat appalled that some professional commercial pilots see themselves as being above the needs of security. If you bypass security you may make life more convenient for yourselves, but you open a gaping insecure hole for everyone else.
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Tell you the truth, I have no idea who designed the security systems that everyone seems to be complaining about. Maybe they are not perfect. Maybe they could be replaced with different screening procedures in different places. But whatever replaces them has to be capable of detecting or deterring many different possible threats.... probably many more than you or I could imagine.
The one issue about a security check that is designed to deter is that it has to be very visible, especially on those attack routes that are easiest. The fact that a potential terrorist can see aircrew going through the same security checks as everyone else is in itself a deterrent to masquerading as flight crew.
The one issue about a security check that is designed to deter is that it has to be very visible, especially on those attack routes that are easiest. The fact that a potential terrorist can see aircrew going through the same security checks as everyone else is in itself a deterrent to masquerading as flight crew.