BA Cabin Crew Strike Threat
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The reps are held in such reverence that to dare to consider any other point of view except that which is passed down from on high is shouted down as herecy and treason by their coterie of bully-boys.
Interesting. That sounds familiar!
Controversial, moi?
The twelve points listed INCLUDE BUT ARE NOT LIMITED TO the reasons why the strike has been called.
As previously mentioned, the uncertainty over hourly rate is another major issue that's being discussed but, as it's not technically on the table right now, it can't be listed as one of the strike points (I believe that's a legal thing).
The comapny put hourly rate on the table and swiftly removed it, but we can't live with the uncertainty over when it will be re-visited.
As previously mentioned, the uncertainty over hourly rate is another major issue that's being discussed but, as it's not technically on the table right now, it can't be listed as one of the strike points (I believe that's a legal thing).
The comapny put hourly rate on the table and swiftly removed it, but we can't live with the uncertainty over when it will be re-visited.
You are saying a strike is being called but it is also about other issues not on the table.
If the issues are not on the table then they won't be part of any agrement to resolve the strike threat.
It really demonstrates that CC are angry and will strike to flex their muscles and scare BA management back into their usual timidity when they (BA) are dealing with difficult issues rather than CC striking over specific and serious issues which can be resolved no other way.
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Sorry Eddy but the logic does not add up.
You are saying a strike is being called but it is also about other issues not on the table.
If the issues are not on the table then they won't be part of any agrement to resolve the strike threat.
It really demonstrates that CC are angry and will strike to flex their muscles and scare BA management back into their usual timidity when they (BA) are dealing with difficult issues rather than CC striking over specific and serious issues which can be resolved no other way.
You are saying a strike is being called but it is also about other issues not on the table.
If the issues are not on the table then they won't be part of any agrement to resolve the strike threat.
It really demonstrates that CC are angry and will strike to flex their muscles and scare BA management back into their usual timidity when they (BA) are dealing with difficult issues rather than CC striking over specific and serious issues which can be resolved no other way.
That said, I'm struggling to actually explain with clarity what the situation is.
The hourly rate thing IS being discussed and it is of great concern to all crew. I don't pretend for one second to know the legal ins and outs of what's going on in the negotiations, but the way I understand it is that because BA took it off the table, it can't be a strike point.
It's not an impending change, it's just something that might happen some time down the line.
Because it's a 'what if' and not a certainty, I don't think we can use that as a strike point. We'd be striking for something that's not actually taking place.
I'm really doing a terrible job at putting this in to words. I do apologise.
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Eddy - FYI when Amicus cabin crew were given all the details of 'hourly rate' and then balloted - 86% were in favour. Your comments echo those of many Bassa members who still do not understand the whole hourly rate scenario.
eg - you would earn slightly more on the hourly rate set up in SIN then the current allowance payment.
Bassa has confused many by tying up the meal allowance payment with that of all of the other payments - long range, etc.
Once again if more crew actually took the blinkers off and found out a little more for themselves, rather than listening to the rhetoric of a few militants, we would probably be a lot further down the road in trying to sort out our current problems.
eg - you would earn slightly more on the hourly rate set up in SIN then the current allowance payment.
Bassa has confused many by tying up the meal allowance payment with that of all of the other payments - long range, etc.
Once again if more crew actually took the blinkers off and found out a little more for themselves, rather than listening to the rhetoric of a few militants, we would probably be a lot further down the road in trying to sort out our current problems.
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There has been mentioned in quite a few posts about the hourly rate. If it has been explained before, I apologise.
My understanding is that the hourly rate replaces expenses. (Expenses defined by BA to cover costs of meals etc at the places you are staying)
Some people viewing these posting may get the the impression that it is the CC wages that are to change to an hourly rate (and with that impression may very well think the CC have a case to complain).
As for the "12" items - they seem, to me, a flimsy case for a strike.
Though saying that, I do applaud the CC strength of feeling to persue a strike.
As has been mentioned on posts on Pprune, I get the impression this is a "politics" game by the union leaders. (The AUEW had the same problem in the 1977 strike, and since then trust in the union - now AMICUS - has deteriorated)
My understanding is that the hourly rate replaces expenses. (Expenses defined by BA to cover costs of meals etc at the places you are staying)
Some people viewing these posting may get the the impression that it is the CC wages that are to change to an hourly rate (and with that impression may very well think the CC have a case to complain).
As for the "12" items - they seem, to me, a flimsy case for a strike.
Though saying that, I do applaud the CC strength of feeling to persue a strike.
As has been mentioned on posts on Pprune, I get the impression this is a "politics" game by the union leaders. (The AUEW had the same problem in the 1977 strike, and since then trust in the union - now AMICUS - has deteriorated)
Controversial, moi?
To clarify the hourly rate issue. BA pilots had many and various extra payments associated mainly with the destination (distance and local cost of living).
Based on seniority our bidding system meant that senior bods bid for the lucrative trips and junior bods got the poorly paid stuff. When our pay restructuring took place all the meal allowances and various extra payments went into the pot. A better basic was negotiated, the various allowances were scrapped and instead we now get x per hour for meal allowances and y per hour for time away from base. The senior chaps still get the pick but the differentials between the best and worst paying trips is far more equitable. It also means that when on leave or off sick our salary does not now drop by the vast amount of old due to the loss of allowances. Overall a far simpler, fairer and easier system for both the pilots and BA.
The cabin crew still have a low basic, highly lucrative 'long range' payments plus various other add ons. Given the alleged corruption which appears to be endemic in the rostering of cabin crew and the need to do the good trips to boost the low basic a system similar to the pilots is long overdue.
Ask yourself why there is so much reluctance on the part of BASSA to even consider the issue. The pension issue has shown that with intelligent research and good negotiation what can be achieved. I would suggest that 90% of CC would be better off with a properly negotiated change to the current system but then it is not part of the current dispute!
Based on seniority our bidding system meant that senior bods bid for the lucrative trips and junior bods got the poorly paid stuff. When our pay restructuring took place all the meal allowances and various extra payments went into the pot. A better basic was negotiated, the various allowances were scrapped and instead we now get x per hour for meal allowances and y per hour for time away from base. The senior chaps still get the pick but the differentials between the best and worst paying trips is far more equitable. It also means that when on leave or off sick our salary does not now drop by the vast amount of old due to the loss of allowances. Overall a far simpler, fairer and easier system for both the pilots and BA.
The cabin crew still have a low basic, highly lucrative 'long range' payments plus various other add ons. Given the alleged corruption which appears to be endemic in the rostering of cabin crew and the need to do the good trips to boost the low basic a system similar to the pilots is long overdue.
Ask yourself why there is so much reluctance on the part of BASSA to even consider the issue. The pension issue has shown that with intelligent research and good negotiation what can be achieved. I would suggest that 90% of CC would be better off with a properly negotiated change to the current system but then it is not part of the current dispute!
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Hourly Rate
I'm in BASSA and agree with many of the comments made here. Whilst I value being in a Union and think in a large company, it's necessary, I wish CC could be represented by BALPA! I'm not adverse to considering the hourly rate. Whats the harm in looking at the deal. I actually think we may well be better off. Very disappointed in thought of imminent strike. This battle has just begun and there will be casualities. WW is fully prepared for this and I think crew need to be ready for him! One of his biggest missions is to take on the unions so here we go .............
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Eddy,
I'm with M.Mouse on this one, your arguements just don't stand up.
For one thing, you fundamentally misunderstand hourly rate allowances. We get approx (I can't remember the exact figure) £2.67 per hour from the moment of report to Compass to 30min after chocks on the way home. It doesn't matter where we go, we get the same rate, which works out at about £64 per day. So your India trip at about 2.6 days would be worth £166 instead of the £40 you get at the moment. Obviously in high cost places (e.g. Switzerland, Japan) you would lose out but the whole thing is much fairer. It has the effect of smoothing out the highs and lows of allowance payments.
Now here is the big thing:- it does not include box payments, overtime etc. The hourly rate replaced our meal allowances, nothing else. So it's the same amount on money, just disributed slightly differently. The saving to BA is in simplified admin (same for everybody) and possibly some currency conversions.
We also had box payments and other allowances which were incorporated into our basic salary, apart from one element, flying hour rate, which is still dependant on the number of hours flying we do on a trip. The system is great because it removed all the greed/corruption and now, provided I do a full months work, I get roughly the same take home pay every month.
Now I am asking myself how come you do not know this? Could it be that your union has not explained it to you? Now why would that do that? Might it be that the threat of 'hourly rate allowance' would make the members vote for a strike. Why did BASSA not put 'hourly rate allowances' as one of the 12 items if it is such a big deal (certainly a bigger deal than duty free position, LGW breakfast etc)? Could it be that they know the true nature of what's on offer has little effect on take home pay but just want to keep you in the dark, in order to gain your STRIKE vote. I hope not, because if it is the case, you have been well and truly suckered.
Have you read the AMICUS newsletter above? Have you compared it to the BASSA version? Somewhat different in style, I think you will agree. AMICUS seems to want to publish facts, not rhetoric. They still have problems with some of the same issues you do but are treating their members with more respect. It may be they wind up voting for strike action as well, but at least their members will have the correct facts on which to base their decision.
Why does BASSA still insist you cannot be sacked for going on strike. The link I posted earlier to the DTI website clearly says you can, only it will be UNFAIR, not ILLEGAL. Redress is through an employment tribunal, many months down the line.
Finally, I know you have personally agonised over this. Your posts are articulate and intelligent so keep them up and keep thinking. I urge you to search for the FACTS hidden in amongst the rhetoric and I wish you good luck in the forthcoming weeks
ATB
I'm with M.Mouse on this one, your arguements just don't stand up.
For one thing, you fundamentally misunderstand hourly rate allowances. We get approx (I can't remember the exact figure) £2.67 per hour from the moment of report to Compass to 30min after chocks on the way home. It doesn't matter where we go, we get the same rate, which works out at about £64 per day. So your India trip at about 2.6 days would be worth £166 instead of the £40 you get at the moment. Obviously in high cost places (e.g. Switzerland, Japan) you would lose out but the whole thing is much fairer. It has the effect of smoothing out the highs and lows of allowance payments.
Now here is the big thing:- it does not include box payments, overtime etc. The hourly rate replaced our meal allowances, nothing else. So it's the same amount on money, just disributed slightly differently. The saving to BA is in simplified admin (same for everybody) and possibly some currency conversions.
We also had box payments and other allowances which were incorporated into our basic salary, apart from one element, flying hour rate, which is still dependant on the number of hours flying we do on a trip. The system is great because it removed all the greed/corruption and now, provided I do a full months work, I get roughly the same take home pay every month.
Now I am asking myself how come you do not know this? Could it be that your union has not explained it to you? Now why would that do that? Might it be that the threat of 'hourly rate allowance' would make the members vote for a strike. Why did BASSA not put 'hourly rate allowances' as one of the 12 items if it is such a big deal (certainly a bigger deal than duty free position, LGW breakfast etc)? Could it be that they know the true nature of what's on offer has little effect on take home pay but just want to keep you in the dark, in order to gain your STRIKE vote. I hope not, because if it is the case, you have been well and truly suckered.
Have you read the AMICUS newsletter above? Have you compared it to the BASSA version? Somewhat different in style, I think you will agree. AMICUS seems to want to publish facts, not rhetoric. They still have problems with some of the same issues you do but are treating their members with more respect. It may be they wind up voting for strike action as well, but at least their members will have the correct facts on which to base their decision.
Why does BASSA still insist you cannot be sacked for going on strike. The link I posted earlier to the DTI website clearly says you can, only it will be UNFAIR, not ILLEGAL. Redress is through an employment tribunal, many months down the line.
Finally, I know you have personally agonised over this. Your posts are articulate and intelligent so keep them up and keep thinking. I urge you to search for the FACTS hidden in amongst the rhetoric and I wish you good luck in the forthcoming weeks
ATB
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BASSA have apparently hand-delivered a letter to BA this afternoon. They have pushed the 'self-destruct' button. Official announcement imminent.
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Flying Fred, why should I not assume that in time the company will remove the boxes, destination payments and overtime like they've done at Gatwick?!
You're right in that initially, these extra payments would remain. Over time, though, they'd undoubtedly be eaten away at by the company.
You're right in that initially, these extra payments would remain. Over time, though, they'd undoubtedly be eaten away at by the company.
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Eddy
You are probably correct. Whilst there are such incongruous anomalies as the box payments, the destination payments, the CAT payments, early morning report allowances, working one down payments etc etc, then they will always be a target. What the cabin crew community would be advised to do, imho, is to totally restructure the method of determining pay as per the pilots.
The cabin crew payments structure can be likened to something like Windows 98, an elephant teetering precariously on a pinhead, a total revamp is what is required.
You are probably correct. Whilst there are such incongruous anomalies as the box payments, the destination payments, the CAT payments, early morning report allowances, working one down payments etc etc, then they will always be a target. What the cabin crew community would be advised to do, imho, is to totally restructure the method of determining pay as per the pilots.
The cabin crew payments structure can be likened to something like Windows 98, an elephant teetering precariously on a pinhead, a total revamp is what is required.
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Eddy
You are probably correct. Whilst there are such incongruous anomalies as the box payments, the destination payments, the CAT payments, early morning report allowances, working one down payments etc etc, then they will always be a target. What the cabin crew community would be advised to do, imho, is to totally restructure the method of determining pay as per the pilots.
The cabin crew payments structure can be likened to something like Windows 98, an elephant teetering precariously on a pinhead, a total revamp is what is required.
You are probably correct. Whilst there are such incongruous anomalies as the box payments, the destination payments, the CAT payments, early morning report allowances, working one down payments etc etc, then they will always be a target. What the cabin crew community would be advised to do, imho, is to totally restructure the method of determining pay as per the pilots.
The cabin crew payments structure can be likened to something like Windows 98, an elephant teetering precariously on a pinhead, a total revamp is what is required.
Something needs to be done to simplify things and make things more fair, but not at the expense of crew.
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quote from Get Smart 'so here we go .............'
Your right there, you'll be going right out of the company.
looking through the papers today i see no vacancies for any pursers or CSD's,or even longhaul cabin crew at £30K PA.(including allowances of course!)
Your right there, you'll be going right out of the company.
looking through the papers today i see no vacancies for any pursers or CSD's,or even longhaul cabin crew at £30K PA.(including allowances of course!)
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It's a great shame but, looking on the bright side, if WW holds his nerve (and there's no reason AFAIK to think he won't) it could be a good thing for the future of BA in the long term.
From BA's perspective, strikes in Jan or Feb when the loads are usually lower won't do as much damage as they would at other times of the year.
It would be interesting to know if CC sickness during those periods is above average, although use of that device is limited by EG300 - one of the reasons, I suspect, that Bassa dislikes EG300 so much.
I wonder what percentage of the famous 96% who voted to strike will actually do so when the crunch comes?
GetSmart
You wrote in another forum:
Will you follow Bassa's call to strike, despite those views? 
From BA's perspective, strikes in Jan or Feb when the loads are usually lower won't do as much damage as they would at other times of the year.
It would be interesting to know if CC sickness during those periods is above average, although use of that device is limited by EG300 - one of the reasons, I suspect, that Bassa dislikes EG300 so much.
I wonder what percentage of the famous 96% who voted to strike will actually do so when the crunch comes?
GetSmart
You wrote in another forum:
I'm in BASSA but I have to say, I think CC89 are being far more professional about this. I want to hear BALANCED facts from my union to whom I pay £16 per month to. Not newsletters slagging off management and name calling. And what's the 'diary of a crew member' about? I'm an adult. Talk to me like one. I'm a little disillusioned at BASSA at the moment. I'm not saying BA are right and they're wrong. Far from it. I'm just not so sure that talks are being as constructive as they could be. If BALPA can do it and CC89 can do it, then BASSA must be able to.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 21st Jan 2007 at 17:51.
Controversial, moi?
It's a great shame but, looking on the bright side, if WW holds his nerve (and there's no reason AFAIK to think he won't) it could be a good thing for the future of BA in the long term.
It will also effectively neuter the more militant behaviour of other BA unions.
How about this santimonious drivel directly from the BASSA site:
The Spirit of British Airways 22nd January 2007
Barely a week ago the branch meeting, held on Monday 15th January, truly was the most symbolic in the history of this union. Crew came along on days off, some came in from trips, some not reporting until the evening. Many went to extraordinary lengths to attend, driving from all parts of the country on their days off. Others hired mini buses to come to the meeting together, from Devon, the Midlands, Manchester, even flying in from Europe, Scotland, France, Spain, you name it they were there.
Why? Because they, like you, care about their future.
For those who were fortunate enough to be able to attend, the effort was worth it! The experience and strength gained on that day will stay with us all for the rest of our lives.
The spontaneous cheers and scenes of jubilation when the 96.1% ballot result was announced, was seen on television around the world and could even be heard in Waterside and Compass Centre!
Those scenes have deliberately been misinterpreted by some, including Willie Walsh;
No one was cheering the fact that there would be a strike.
No one was celebrating disruption for our passengers.
No one was celebrating industrial action.
No one wants to be to be in our position.
Those scenes of celebration were merely an outpouring of emotion from a frustrated group of decent, hard working, ordinary people that have simply had enough.
Our right to a decent pension after a lifetime's hard work is being destroyed. We are being forced to come to work when we are genuinely sick out of fear of an uncaring policy. Many suffer through poverty level new entrant pay scales. We have been arrogantly pushed around and treated as a cheap, disposable corporate commodity that can easily be replaced for far too long. Well, not any more.
We are people with dreams and aspirations of our own and those dreams and our future are worth standing up and fighting for.
We now have a voice. A very loud voice. It was the explosive sound of 8000 plus cabin crew who finally saw the light and hope at the end of a very long and dark tunnel.
Cabin Crew are not some radical militants, far from it. Being Cabin Crew is about doing a good job, day in and day out, on the front line of customer services, for a company most of us are still proud to work for. Last Monday, crew finally saw the chance to reclaim the "spirit of this company" from a cynical management that, over time, has hijacked the British Airway ethic, that both we and our customers love and has instead turned it into a bitter, hard faced place to work.
The spontaneity and volume of the crew reaction was not malicious or aggressive, far from it. It was crew rejoicing in the fact that others shared their beliefs.
It is time for our passengers to know that as our aircraft and terminals become shabbier, with poorer quality food, less service, less facilities, equipment breakdown, as our customer contact staff is cut to the bone in every area, there is one exception. The gleaming, opulence of Waterside. Take a look around next time you go, at the waterfalls and buffed chrome and, amidst those thousands of shiny people, we doubt you will see even one customer contact uniform in the entire building.
The founder of McDonald's once famously said, "take care of the customer and the business will take care of itself".
Our management's philosophy appears to be the exact opposite. As the people who actually take care of our customers, whether it's in the terminal, handling their luggage or serving on the flight, they are being removed, they are being replaced by layer upon layer of faceless managers, that quite frankly wouldn't know a customer if they fell over one, let alone ever tried to serve one. Apart from their enhanced staff travel we seriously doubt they even realise they work for an airline.
Corporate BA is simply another world, far removed from the reality of taking our customers, in the best possible way, from A to B. Yet it is one that is shaping a future for both British Airways staff and our customers that they may not recognise or want.
We asked for your support in the ballot to give us a strong position at the negotiation table. We emphatically got this. 96.1% is simply incredible and unheard of in trade union history. We sincerely thank you for your support, your faith and your trust.
Our aim was to return to the negotiations in a strong position, to try to secure beneficial change on your behalf. We are saddened to say that in this aim, we have failed. Not through lack of effort or enterprise but because we have a management that simply will not listen.
With your faith in us comes responsibility.
We would not even consider industrial action if there remained even a glimmer of hope of negotiating an acceptable solution. It would be purely a last resort. With regret, we have to announce that we are now at that point.
After 4 days of intense negotiations, British Airways gave us their final position last Friday. It was contained in a lengthy document that had not been written for us, as it was simplistic and deliberately misleading. It was written for public and press consumption. The only thing that they were prepared to move on was our request for a weekend central area bus. We knew at that moment, that this was the end of the road. The management present could barely contain the glee on their faces (Alun Howells actually smirked and continually shook his head in mock disbelief as the Deputy General Secretary of the TGWU outlined our proposals). The overtly aggressive style of their response, clearly indicated that they were not interested in either peace or negotiation.
They were just waiting for the opportunity to try and crush your union and you as a work force with a voice, along with us. They never had any intention of holding meaningful talks, they were not negotiating they were simply delaying.
Our proposals were intended as a compromise to offer a sensible way out of confrontation, for management for once to use their imagination instead of tired dogma, to solve and heal a conflict rather than inflame it even further. Where there is a will there is a way.
We sincerely doubt that the sincerity or realistic cost of our proposals ever made it as far as Willie Walsh, past the jaded cynicism of the level of management that we had to deal with.
To be honest it was always going to be that way. How else could the same managers that have had a 96.1% vote for industrial action justify their own failings? How else could they explain their own mismanagement? It is far easier to blame BASSA and an "unreasonable workforce", than to admit the truth to our Chief Executive.
FACT-You do not get a vote with that strength of feeling unless something is seriously wrong in the way a department is being run.
IFS Management repeatedly state BASSA will not accept change and yet the greatest irony is that it is they that never change. Creativity and indeed flexibility simply do not exist in their vocabulary. Their frustration stems from the fact that we won't simply just "do as we are told" and their accusation that BASSA is guilty of "1970s style trade unionism". We say their style of management also belongs to the 70s, the 1870s!
Modern industrial relations must be as a partnership not as master and servant.
One thing they have underestimated - they are taking this stance because it's their job, they are being told what to do and say. But for your reps and for you it's something that we strongly believe in. It's our lives and our future. There is a big difference.
Our proposals are fair, balanced and in the circumstances not unreasonable or unrealistic. We are happy to share the proposals with you in full, details will be placed on our website in the urgent news updates, entitled - Industrial Action - BASSA Proposals for Settlement and if you are a subscriber to our email news service then this will also have been emailed to you.
They have been costed by a recognised expert in this field, Ed Sabisky, a former financial director for General Motors a man whose financial expertise is widely recognised and whose credibility is beyond question or reproach, even by BA.
We now simply have no other alternative but to ask for your support to take industrial action in a series of 3 day strikes, the first to commence at 0001 on Monday 29th through to 2359 on Wednesday 31st January and then the 5th, 6th and 7th February and then 12th, 13th and 14th February. Please do not report for any duty (at base) between these times. You are taking part in legal industrial action. You do not need to inform BA of your decision, you simply do not report for work.
We of course know that this is an unnerving prospect for us all, but please do not feel alone. Draw on the support of others, talk to each other through our website, phone lines and most of all, if you can, by joining your friends and colleagues on the picket lines or just to help out with cups of tea at either of our two LHR bases at Bedfont Football Club and our temporary office just off the Bath Road. Also at LGW the Premium Lodge, next to the Gatwick Manor and Ramada Hotel at GLA.
Have no doubts, we now have no other alternative to convince the company of our resolve and the legitimacy of our issues than industrial action, negotiation has failed. They don't believe you will support your union in industrial action, hence their aggressive stance.
For your pension, for your right to go sick, for a fairer salary for new entrants, for career prospects, for respect, for your future, for your family and most of all for YOU, we must now ask for your support. Without it, it is the end for BASSA. We cannot fight these changes alone.
Please do not rely on the bravery of others. We will not get a second chance.
No one wants to take industrial action, least of all BASSA, no one wants to cause anxiety and inconvenience to you and to our passengers or indeed to the reputation of our airline and our colleagues from other areas within BA.
Sometimes in life you have to stand up and be counted for what we all know is right, now is that time!
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can't even get the date right.
look after the customers and the business will look after itself ?
Try telling that to the customers who will have ther holidays ruined -yet again.
look after the customers and the business will look after itself ?
Try telling that to the customers who will have ther holidays ruined -yet again.