Mid-air collision over Brasil
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The pilots did not say this
Your source seems to relate only to ATC transcripts but with the radio silent on the ground from the Legacy does not mean that attempts were not being made in the air from the Legacy.
particular time. I am not sure if it was to discuss altitude. They did not understood the new frequency they were given for Manaus.
Last edited by marciovp; 5th Sep 2007 at 14:03. Reason: typo
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From AIN today
IATA Criticizes Brazil ATC System
In a report sent privately to Brazilian officials and airlines, the International Air Transport Association (IATA) says Brazil’s military-run ATC system is “unreliable, unsafe and inefficient.” Labor problems and other disruptions in ATC have “magnified the deficiencies of the ATC system,” the report states, since last September’s midair between an ExcelAire Embraer Legacy 600 and Gol Airlines Boeing 737-800 over the Amazon, killing all 154 aboard the airliner. IATA says the 2006 accident rate for Brazilian operators was 3.5 times higher than the world average and emphasizes that fixes must be made immediately. It wants to “establish a communication link” with the Defense Ministry, which runs Brazils ATC system, to set up monthly collaborative decision-making meetings to address aviation safety issues. Further, the group is asking for the Defense Ministry to implement a contingency plan to mitigate ATC problems; resolve ATC political-labor issues; comply with all ICAO rules; and ensure that all area control centers have adequate radar surveillance, ground-to-air communications and navigational aids.
IATA Criticizes Brazil ATC System
In a report sent privately to Brazilian officials and airlines, the International Air Transport Association (IATA) says Brazil’s military-run ATC system is “unreliable, unsafe and inefficient.” Labor problems and other disruptions in ATC have “magnified the deficiencies of the ATC system,” the report states, since last September’s midair between an ExcelAire Embraer Legacy 600 and Gol Airlines Boeing 737-800 over the Amazon, killing all 154 aboard the airliner. IATA says the 2006 accident rate for Brazilian operators was 3.5 times higher than the world average and emphasizes that fixes must be made immediately. It wants to “establish a communication link” with the Defense Ministry, which runs Brazils ATC system, to set up monthly collaborative decision-making meetings to address aviation safety issues. Further, the group is asking for the Defense Ministry to implement a contingency plan to mitigate ATC problems; resolve ATC political-labor issues; comply with all ICAO rules; and ensure that all area control centers have adequate radar surveillance, ground-to-air communications and navigational aids.
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Originally Posted by Sdruvss
Richard Pedicini ..... is your *reliable* source.
Originally Posted by ORAC
Well that's a nice piece of character assassination without any supporting evidence
That is not character assassination, that is praise of the highest order for his political skills!
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Originally Posted by PBL
That is not character assassination, that is praise of the highest order for his political skills!
Originally Posted by Sdruvss
he has a biased view of all facts. [...] he is out of his mind. [...] He has many identities.
Bernd
Last edited by bsieker; 9th Sep 2007 at 13:29. Reason: choice of words
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As a Brazilian...
Perhaps the American pilots could or should have done things that would prevent the disaster. The final report will - I hope - inform us of their reponsibility share.
But what I can say, as a Brazilian, is that there is a lot of prejudice against the pilots here. You all know what is prejudice. We humans don´t seem to deal with people who are different, in this case nationality. I guess this could happen in any country. In the case of Brazil there is a lot of prejudices against the USA and the pilots were at the wrong time at the wrong place. Stvruss in a way represents the Brazilians´ average thinking...
From the beginning I was appaled when the Minister of Defense in TV was already blaming the Legacy pilots for "disconnecting the transponder in order to do stunts with the new plane". On that day I realized that I would have to do whatever I could to neutralize this venon. Well, with the black boxes, it then became clear that they flew all the time straight and level... So this version was shot.
Then it was repeated many times that they did not follow the written flight plan. This was said by people who should know better, that is, that the flight plan is always the last one cleared by ATC. But the press was always coming back to it. Well I am not going here into the conversation between the pilots and the ATC in San Jose: if there was a misunderstanding, if the ATC did not know how to speak english, if the pilots did not understand (this will become clear because the tape will not lie) but the fact is that the Legacy pilots felt that they were cleared to fly 370 to Manaus.
I am not going into why, but I am sure no pílot would disconnect a transponder voluntarily specially in a somewhat strange country. Yes, after seven minutes after passing Brazilia they were flying 370. Then with the transponder off they flew 370 until the disaster. Well... couldn´t ATC in Brasilia and Manaus help them out in this predicament?...
In Brazil there has been a mess...local police investigation, federal police investigation, CPI of the House, CPI of the Senate, Air Force blaming the controllers (who are also lower rank Air Force) and...of course CENIPA (that belongs to the Air Force too). All, except CENIPA have decided who is to be blamed...
The Legacy pilots, of course, where afraid to come to Brazil for deposition. I believe that for good reazons. So they are being tried without being heard...even though they offered to make depositions in the USA...to be sent to the judge in Mato Grosso. The judge did not accept this.
As for the informant for Mr. Sharkey I am not sure. But let´s not kill the messager of bad news... I recall that this man indeed was falsely accused in his school and had a very hard time dealing with it after the school was closed. He must be very sensitive to people being falsely accused of course.
As for Sdvruss I am glad he is expressing himself and is here in this forum.
I believe he means well.
But what I can say, as a Brazilian, is that there is a lot of prejudice against the pilots here. You all know what is prejudice. We humans don´t seem to deal with people who are different, in this case nationality. I guess this could happen in any country. In the case of Brazil there is a lot of prejudices against the USA and the pilots were at the wrong time at the wrong place. Stvruss in a way represents the Brazilians´ average thinking...
From the beginning I was appaled when the Minister of Defense in TV was already blaming the Legacy pilots for "disconnecting the transponder in order to do stunts with the new plane". On that day I realized that I would have to do whatever I could to neutralize this venon. Well, with the black boxes, it then became clear that they flew all the time straight and level... So this version was shot.
Then it was repeated many times that they did not follow the written flight plan. This was said by people who should know better, that is, that the flight plan is always the last one cleared by ATC. But the press was always coming back to it. Well I am not going here into the conversation between the pilots and the ATC in San Jose: if there was a misunderstanding, if the ATC did not know how to speak english, if the pilots did not understand (this will become clear because the tape will not lie) but the fact is that the Legacy pilots felt that they were cleared to fly 370 to Manaus.
I am not going into why, but I am sure no pílot would disconnect a transponder voluntarily specially in a somewhat strange country. Yes, after seven minutes after passing Brazilia they were flying 370. Then with the transponder off they flew 370 until the disaster. Well... couldn´t ATC in Brasilia and Manaus help them out in this predicament?...
In Brazil there has been a mess...local police investigation, federal police investigation, CPI of the House, CPI of the Senate, Air Force blaming the controllers (who are also lower rank Air Force) and...of course CENIPA (that belongs to the Air Force too). All, except CENIPA have decided who is to be blamed...
The Legacy pilots, of course, where afraid to come to Brazil for deposition. I believe that for good reazons. So they are being tried without being heard...even though they offered to make depositions in the USA...to be sent to the judge in Mato Grosso. The judge did not accept this.
As for the informant for Mr. Sharkey I am not sure. But let´s not kill the messager of bad news... I recall that this man indeed was falsely accused in his school and had a very hard time dealing with it after the school was closed. He must be very sensitive to people being falsely accused of course.
As for Sdvruss I am glad he is expressing himself and is here in this forum.
I believe he means well.
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Thank you marciovp for your enlightened view. Yes, I'm sure we all feel a little paranoia, a little xenophobia in a tragedy under such circumstance. And those who would exploit the same for political ends must be shown for what they are. (Many Norteamericanos will recall the 1979 ORD DC-10 crash in which an NTSB official, a day after the accident, infamously held up a broken bolt to announce he had found the "cause" of the disaster.)
Fortunately the international agencies (ICAO, IFALPA -- ) will serve to do the right thing and point to a better way. They are not perfect, but they still have the common goal of accident prevention and are less subject to local politics.
Fortunately the international agencies (ICAO, IFALPA -- ) will serve to do the right thing and point to a better way. They are not perfect, but they still have the common goal of accident prevention and are less subject to local politics.
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Thank you
Thank you barit1. This is my hope too, that the international agencies plus CENIPA and NTSB will arrive at the data without prejudices. I am hoping these agencies will be there.
Joe Skarkey is a north american NYTimes reporter who was a passenger in the Legacy. He has a blog talking about the disaster:
http://sharkeyonbrazil.*************/
It is interesting to notice that since the disaster the NTSB has published some directives to the effect that when a transponder goes off the pilots of any plane should be warned in sound and red color. In the case of the Legacy all that happened was a small warn in small yelow letters in the screen that was not noticed by the pilots. It is also of interest that the FAA has send a directive stating that in some Embraer planes, includingthe Legacy, the pilots should be carefull when resting the feet on the foot rest below the dash because this would alter the radio frequency and the transponder. And NTSB has sent a directive about the working hours of ATC and the times for resting. I suspect all of this related to the Brazilian disaster.
I am confident that eventually we will get there to prevent further disasters like this one.
I also suspect that the Brazilian Air Force should be less defensive and allow for investigation of its equipments and softwares since they are responsible for ATC in Brazil.
We are all citizens of a global community!
Joe Skarkey is a north american NYTimes reporter who was a passenger in the Legacy. He has a blog talking about the disaster:
http://sharkeyonbrazil.*************/
It is interesting to notice that since the disaster the NTSB has published some directives to the effect that when a transponder goes off the pilots of any plane should be warned in sound and red color. In the case of the Legacy all that happened was a small warn in small yelow letters in the screen that was not noticed by the pilots. It is also of interest that the FAA has send a directive stating that in some Embraer planes, includingthe Legacy, the pilots should be carefull when resting the feet on the foot rest below the dash because this would alter the radio frequency and the transponder. And NTSB has sent a directive about the working hours of ATC and the times for resting. I suspect all of this related to the Brazilian disaster.
I am confident that eventually we will get there to prevent further disasters like this one.
I also suspect that the Brazilian Air Force should be less defensive and allow for investigation of its equipments and softwares since they are responsible for ATC in Brazil.
We are all citizens of a global community!
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Originally Posted by marciovp
And NTSB has sent a directive about the working hours of ATC and the times for resting. I suspect all of this related to the Brazilian disaster.
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Originally Posted by Brian Abraham
Sdvruss????????? Here yesterday, gone today. What's he playing at?
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IATA report on Brazil
Here's a summary of what the IATA report says. It seems as if IATA is working with the Brazilian authorities but are refusing to pull their punches:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...on-safety.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...on-safety.html
(Many Norteamericanos will recall the 1979 ORD DC-10 crash in which an NTSB official, a day after the accident, infamously held up a broken bolt to announce he had found the "cause" of the disaster.)
and it really isn't that much different from what is going on today in Brazil regarding concentrating on blaming a turned off transponder for the crash. Lack of a working transponder don't causes crashes they simply fail to prevent them once other causal factors have occured
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I repeat bsieker words:
I had a deep affinity with his thoughts, but he only sees one side of the coin. I deleted my post because PBL said something that doesn't express my will.
Most other sentences are neutral or positive.
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Seems like he has left the building! makes you wonder what he was up to!!!
http://www.pprune.org/forums/search....archid=1828049
http://www.pprune.org/forums/search....archid=1828049
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Originally Posted by Sdruvss
I deleted my post because PBL said something that doesn't express my will.
Why would you expect PBL to express your will??
I expect him to express his own thoughts and opinions, as we expect and respect you to express your own.
I find it regrettable that you deleted or erased most of your previous posts.
Bernd
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bsieker,
I'm trying again. I was trying to say, that I am for Pedicini cause, but he has a biased view. The same way YOU think about me. It's simple as that. If I have a biased view, he has too. I only reported facts published by news the same as him. I didn't do any "character assassination" as PBL said. Do you see that only with facts published by news may lead to wrong conclusions?
I'm trying again. I was trying to say, that I am for Pedicini cause, but he has a biased view. The same way YOU think about me. It's simple as that. If I have a biased view, he has too. I only reported facts published by news the same as him. I didn't do any "character assassination" as PBL said. Do you see that only with facts published by news may lead to wrong conclusions?
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Sdruvss, good that you are again with us.
We only have an opinion about you based on what you write here. We do not know you.
If you want to be understood and not mistaken, or wrongly understood, if would be good that you explain who you are and/or who you are representing, and what is your interest/ connections in this particular case..
You could fill up your profile for a start.
he has a biased view. The same way YOU think about me
If you want to be understood and not mistaken, or wrongly understood, if would be good that you explain who you are and/or who you are representing, and what is your interest/ connections in this particular case..
You could fill up your profile for a start.
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Originally Posted by Sdruvss
I didn't do any "character assassination" as PBL said.
ORAC said what you wrote was character assassination (now also deleted),
PBL defended you and said you were praising Richard Pedicini's political skills.
Bernd
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
I'm trying again. I was trying to say, that I am for Pedicini cause, but he has a biased view.
Richard Pedicini, an information technology professional and lotery consulting (???), was falsely accused, in 1994, of child sexual abuse by neighbors, a police officer, and rushed newspapers. He was in jail for nine days. Without any evidence, justice released him. Since then, his mission is to support what he believes to be falsely accused foreigners in Brazil. Although all Brazilians sympathize with his cause, he has a biased view of all facts. He sees Escola Base everywhere and he is out of his mind. Since Legacy/Gol accident, he gathers favorable news to the pilots and translates to Joe Sharkey. He creates many blogs, and he participates in many forums like this. A lot of Joe Sharkey references are Pedicini’s sites. He has many identities. He is everywhere at internet. He is your *reliable* source