Mid-air collision over Brasil
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CPI report available at Joe Sharkey's blog
Parliamentary Commission of Inquiry (CPI) on the Sept. 29 crash and the crisis in Brazilian air traffic.
Excelent translation!!!!
Richard Pedicini in Sao Paulo tirelessly translated this from the Portuguese, and has added Translator's Notes at appropriate spots to point out slips, errors and outright mistranslations in the Portuguese version of English radio transcripts from the American pilots.
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Just a thought...
Come to think about it...of course families who lost loved ones in the disaster want to sue. Then, to sue the Brazilian government (Air Force),
GOL Airlines (Boeing 737)... or Excell AIr that, as came out in the papers, has insurance for this contiongency, and has an airplane sitting there at Cachimbo Air Force Base, confiscated already by a Judge?... Perhaps this is why it becomes important for the pilots of the Legacy to be at fault... so that Excel Air can be sued...
Just a thought...
GOL Airlines (Boeing 737)... or Excell AIr that, as came out in the papers, has insurance for this contiongency, and has an airplane sitting there at Cachimbo Air Force Base, confiscated already by a Judge?... Perhaps this is why it becomes important for the pilots of the Legacy to be at fault... so that Excel Air can be sued...
Just a thought...
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marciovp :
Follow the money is always a good trail in investigations . But this time the family relatives should perhaps realize that the State of Brazil has far more funds that a small US company ( that could also declare that part operating the aircraft insolvent ) and I am not sure the Legacy impounded was paid cash in advance . If banks were involved they will certainly recoup their credits on it as well.
In the US , during the Cerritos trial, the Mexican lawyers representing the families preferred to attack the FAA ( which had little responsibility in that case but a lot of cash ) instead of the Pilot/owner of the Piper, whose assets were less that a Million US. They won by the way , and the FAA paid.
Sdruvss :
thanks for the link, but I still do not know what you are after after this remark .
so that Excel Air can be sued...
In the US , during the Cerritos trial, the Mexican lawyers representing the families preferred to attack the FAA ( which had little responsibility in that case but a lot of cash ) instead of the Pilot/owner of the Piper, whose assets were less that a Million US. They won by the way , and the FAA paid.
Sdruvss :
Excelent translation!!!!
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ATC Watcher:
He did a very good translation job. He lives a long time in Brazil and he is American. No one could do a better translation. He translated everything (170pages!). And I don't know how he have access to the original. I haven't find it yet at internet, I had only part of it, but there is nothing but what we all already know.
Excelent translation!!!! thanks for the link, but I still do not know what you are after after this remark
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State of Brazil and Aero Magazine
Follow the money is always a good trail in investigations . But this time the family relatives should perhaps realize that the State of Brazil has far more funds that a small US company ( that could also declare that part operating the aircraft insolvent ) and I am not sure the Legacy impounded was paid cash in advance . If banks were involved they will certainly recoup their credits on it as well.
Aeromagazine, just came out.
www.aeromagazine.com.br
The last edition of the magazine Aeromagazine mentions again the two disasters Boing x Legacy and TAM in Congonhas. Since this is a thread on Boeing x Legacy, here is what they say:
It mentions that there is a controversy about the Legacy Transponder.
It says that the north-american authorities are questioning the local that the RMU (Radio Management Unit) in the jets of the family ERJ built by Embraer. The FAA (Federal Aviation Agency), aviation authority in the USA, published in July 3/07 a Security Alert for Operators (SAFO 07005) callingthe attention for the possibility of pilots who fly the models Legacy, ERJ-135, ERJ-140 and ERJ-145 modifying radio frequencies VHF or placing the Transponder in Stand By uintentionally during the flight. The FAA afirms that it found out during an investigation that pilots who had the habit of placing their shoes in the shoe rest located just below the instrument panel could unintentionally change the Transponder to Stand By . The study also shows the difficulties for the pilots to see that the Transponder was off because the indication "TCAS OFF" appear in the PFD (Primary screen) in small white letters that, according to FAA, are less perceived than warnings with colored letters.
Then the Embraer replies:
They acknowledge the note from FAA for the family EMB-145.. However in more than 11 million accumulated flight hours there has been no reports of TCAs being disconnected or going into Stand By in airplanes built by Embraer that have any relationship wit foot rest. All the technical analysis made by Embraer show that the normal use of the foot rests in the family EM-145 do not cause risks of the disconnection involuntary or accidental of the TCAs in these airplanes.
This subject is now being discussed between ANAC (Brazilian National Agency for Civil Aviation) and FAA, organizations that are reponsible for the certification of airplanes in Brazil and USA
So, so far...no conclusion on why the Transponder went off in the Legacy...
Last edited by marciovp; 12th Sep 2007 at 21:13. Reason: Typo and more info
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If I understand it right, I believe that the Brazilian parliament committee CPI - Crise do Sistema de Trafego Aereo has recently issued a report in which they hold air traffic controllers and the Legacy pilots responsible for the midair accident.
I understand that this report has no direct legal implications.
I am also open to being contradicted if I have misunderstood the situation.
PBL
I understand that this report has no direct legal implications.
I am also open to being contradicted if I have misunderstood the situation.
PBL
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Originally Posted by marciovp
Approaching Brasilia the pilots said to ATC here we are, at 370. ATC said OK, "have a good trip". Nobody said anything about changing altitude.
The radar screen in Brasilia showed for seven minutes after the Legacy passed Brasilia that the transponder was OK showing 370 but the software from Brasilia was showing 360. Software in Brasilia entered the original written flight plan not requiring that ATC talked and confirmed 360 with the pilots. The icon was showing 370:360. A discrepancy.
Then transponder OFF. There was clear indication in the radar screen in Brasilia that the transponder was off. A military primary radar entered the picture and sent information 360. The written original flight plan also was there. So 360Z360 (Z means unreliable). Also transponder OFF. For about one hour. No communication between ATC and pilots even the radio was working. The pilots also did not see the Transponder OFF sign, in small letter, in yellow in their screen.
Then the lack of communication, one trying to call the other more that a dozen times. When ATC was able to say something to the pilots it was nothing about altitude, and there was no concern. It was to tell them the frequency of Manaus.
The radar screen in Brasilia showed for seven minutes after the Legacy passed Brasilia that the transponder was OK showing 370 but the software from Brasilia was showing 360. Software in Brasilia entered the original written flight plan not requiring that ATC talked and confirmed 360 with the pilots. The icon was showing 370:360. A discrepancy.
Then transponder OFF. There was clear indication in the radar screen in Brasilia that the transponder was off. A military primary radar entered the picture and sent information 360. The written original flight plan also was there. So 360Z360 (Z means unreliable). Also transponder OFF. For about one hour. No communication between ATC and pilots even the radio was working. The pilots also did not see the Transponder OFF sign, in small letter, in yellow in their screen.
Then the lack of communication, one trying to call the other more that a dozen times. When ATC was able to say something to the pilots it was nothing about altitude, and there was no concern. It was to tell them the frequency of Manaus.
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Newspaper article
In the International Herald Tribune:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/...a/03brazil.php
From flightglobal.com, the WWW presence of Flight International:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-to-press.html
PBL
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/...a/03brazil.php
From flightglobal.com, the WWW presence of Flight International:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-to-press.html
PBL
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How nice to see the names of the air traffic controllers published in the press. ( Herald Tribune link ) That is really important news !
Nobody seems to have learned anything from Ueberlingen.
Nobody seems to have learned anything from Ueberlingen.
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These news are about the military inquiry. That is why it doesn't metion the pilots charges. And those news doesn't mention:
"For the pilots, the following procedural failures can be listed, besides that indicated as determining:
• the lack of proficiency in the handling of the Embraer Legacy aircraft, especially in the operation of its avionics, characterizing incompetence;
not using the communications failure code on the transponder;
• not using the emergency frequency in due time when the communications failure
was characterized;
• conducting the aircraft in an imprudent manner and being negligent of security rules; and
• the low situational awareness of the Legacy’s crew."
About the clearance:
"An ATC clearance means an authorization by ATC, for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified conditions within controlled airspace. It is not autorization for a pilot to deviate from any rule, regulation, or minimum altitude nor to conduct unsafe operation unsage operation of the aircraft. The pilot-in-command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft. If ATC issues a clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a rule or regulation, or in the pilot's opinion, would place the aircraft in jeopardy. It is the pilots responsibility to request an amended clearance."• the lack of proficiency in the handling of the Embraer Legacy aircraft, especially in the operation of its avionics, characterizing incompetence;
not using the communications failure code on the transponder;
• not using the emergency frequency in due time when the communications failure
was characterized;
• conducting the aircraft in an imprudent manner and being negligent of security rules; and
• the low situational awareness of the Legacy’s crew."
About the clearance:
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An ATC clearance means an authorization by ATC, for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified conditions within controlled airspace. It is not autorization for a pilot to deviate from any rule, regulation, or minimum altitude nor to conduct unsafe operation unsage operation of the aircraft. The pilot-in-command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft. If ATC issues a clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a rule or regulation, or in the pilot's opinion, would place the aircraft in jeopardy. It is the pilots responsibility to request an amended clearance.
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ATC4US and Barit : the "clearance ' text mentioned is something taken out of its context to prove something, that was not intended to .
While it is indeed the pilot's responsibility to request an amended clearance if the initial instruction would put the aircraft in jeopardy ( think about a climb above max alt, or an unfeasible speed reduction , etc... ) it does not cover the FL changes according semi-circular.
What is very mean here, is that under the cover of technical knowledge, someone manipulates regulatory texts in order to influence the judiciary into believing that there is indeed some form of pilot responsibility in this..
Very dirty game ....
While it is indeed the pilot's responsibility to request an amended clearance if the initial instruction would put the aircraft in jeopardy ( think about a climb above max alt, or an unfeasible speed reduction , etc... ) it does not cover the FL changes according semi-circular.
What is very mean here, is that under the cover of technical knowledge, someone manipulates regulatory texts in order to influence the judiciary into believing that there is indeed some form of pilot responsibility in this..
Very dirty game ....
Last edited by ATC Watcher; 8th Oct 2007 at 18:28.
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"4-4-1. Clearance
a. A clearance issued by ATC is predicated on known traffic and known physical airport conditions. An ATC clearance means an authorization by ATC, for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified conditions within controlled airspace. IT IS NOT AUTHORIZATION FOR A PILOT TO DEVIATE FROM ANY RULE, REGULATION, OR MINIMUM ALTITUDE NOR TO CONDUCT UNSAFE OPERATION OF THE AIRCRAFT.
b. 14 CFR Section 91.3(a) states: "The pilot-in-command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." If ATC issues a clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a rule or regulation, or in the pilot's opinion, would place the aircraft in jeopardy, IT IS THE PILOT'S RESPONSIBILITY TO REQUEST AN AMENDED CLEARANCE."
(Federal Aviation Administration - Aeronautical Information Manual - Official Guide to Basic Flight Information and ATC Procedures)
Universal Weather, a global trip support services provider, made the Legacy flight plan taking in account fuel efficiency; best time to destination; adequate reserves; alternate ETOPS; airport weather considerations; RVSM airspace; navigation and communications requirements. This plan foresaw from São José dos Campos (SP) to Brasilia (DF), passing through Poços de Caldas (MG), the Legacy aircraft should travel via airway UW2, at 452 miles per hour, at an altitude of 37,000 feet. From Brasilia onward, the Legacy aircraft should have progressed via the UZ6 airway, at 456 miles per hour, at an altitude of 36,000 feet. From the Teres (virtual) compulsory notification point, the Legacy aircraft should have continued progressing on UZ6 airway, at 449 miles per hour, then changing, to the altitude of 38,000 feet. UZ6 airway has traffic in both directions. Aircraft that are traveling from north to south fly at odd levels (FL 290, FL 310, FL 330,... to FL 410), while those that are traveling from south to north fly at even levels (FL 300, FL 320, FL 340,... to FL 400). This plan was electronically submitted by Embraer to the traffic control center. An air traffic controller, in the Flight Plan Room, confirmed the insertion of the referred plan into the system and verified route conflicts by cross referencing it with the flight plans of the ACCs of the other FIRs. Before beginning a flight, the pilot-in-command shall familiarize himself with all available information appropriate to the intended operation. Although there is documentary evidence the crew had marked the flight route on an aeronautic chart of Brazilian air space, as far as everything has been seen, the probably is immense that the pilots did not even become aware of the originally presented flight plan, only coming to worry to about this after embarking on the aircraft, since there are no records of their presence in the AIS Room of the São José dos Campos Aerodrome. A clearance should contain clearance limit, departure procedure, route of flight, altitude data, and other information that are necessary. The clearance was: “November six zero zero x-ray lima, ATC clearance to Eduardo Gomes, flight level three seven zero, direct Poços de Caldas, squawk transponder code four five seven four. After take-off perform Oren departure”. It was clearly incomplete. It didn’t mention the complete route (Brasilia, Teres). The crew kept the route of the requested flight plan, but not levels. The crew acted with low situational awareness, not observing RVSM airspace and fuel efficiency provided by original flight plan.
(Note: this may be a bad translation)
a. A clearance issued by ATC is predicated on known traffic and known physical airport conditions. An ATC clearance means an authorization by ATC, for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified conditions within controlled airspace. IT IS NOT AUTHORIZATION FOR A PILOT TO DEVIATE FROM ANY RULE, REGULATION, OR MINIMUM ALTITUDE NOR TO CONDUCT UNSAFE OPERATION OF THE AIRCRAFT.
b. 14 CFR Section 91.3(a) states: "The pilot-in-command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." If ATC issues a clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a rule or regulation, or in the pilot's opinion, would place the aircraft in jeopardy, IT IS THE PILOT'S RESPONSIBILITY TO REQUEST AN AMENDED CLEARANCE."
(Federal Aviation Administration - Aeronautical Information Manual - Official Guide to Basic Flight Information and ATC Procedures)
Universal Weather, a global trip support services provider, made the Legacy flight plan taking in account fuel efficiency; best time to destination; adequate reserves; alternate ETOPS; airport weather considerations; RVSM airspace; navigation and communications requirements. This plan foresaw from São José dos Campos (SP) to Brasilia (DF), passing through Poços de Caldas (MG), the Legacy aircraft should travel via airway UW2, at 452 miles per hour, at an altitude of 37,000 feet. From Brasilia onward, the Legacy aircraft should have progressed via the UZ6 airway, at 456 miles per hour, at an altitude of 36,000 feet. From the Teres (virtual) compulsory notification point, the Legacy aircraft should have continued progressing on UZ6 airway, at 449 miles per hour, then changing, to the altitude of 38,000 feet. UZ6 airway has traffic in both directions. Aircraft that are traveling from north to south fly at odd levels (FL 290, FL 310, FL 330,... to FL 410), while those that are traveling from south to north fly at even levels (FL 300, FL 320, FL 340,... to FL 400). This plan was electronically submitted by Embraer to the traffic control center. An air traffic controller, in the Flight Plan Room, confirmed the insertion of the referred plan into the system and verified route conflicts by cross referencing it with the flight plans of the ACCs of the other FIRs. Before beginning a flight, the pilot-in-command shall familiarize himself with all available information appropriate to the intended operation. Although there is documentary evidence the crew had marked the flight route on an aeronautic chart of Brazilian air space, as far as everything has been seen, the probably is immense that the pilots did not even become aware of the originally presented flight plan, only coming to worry to about this after embarking on the aircraft, since there are no records of their presence in the AIS Room of the São José dos Campos Aerodrome. A clearance should contain clearance limit, departure procedure, route of flight, altitude data, and other information that are necessary. The clearance was: “November six zero zero x-ray lima, ATC clearance to Eduardo Gomes, flight level three seven zero, direct Poços de Caldas, squawk transponder code four five seven four. After take-off perform Oren departure”. It was clearly incomplete. It didn’t mention the complete route (Brasilia, Teres). The crew kept the route of the requested flight plan, but not levels. The crew acted with low situational awareness, not observing RVSM airspace and fuel efficiency provided by original flight plan.
(Note: this may be a bad translation)
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Originally Posted by ATC4US
The clearance was: “November six zero zero x-ray lima, ATC clearance to Eduardo Gomes, flight level three seven zero, direct Poços de Caldas, squawk transponder code four five seven four. After take-off perform Oren departure”. ........ The crew kept the route of the requested flight plan, but not levels.
Please also give your justification, with reference to ICAO procedures.
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Plus the fact that the crew was cleared later en route to climb to FL370 and reported to Brasilia sector 7 ( the sector in which the change to 360 was planned to take place , ) cruising at FL370.
They were replied to be under radar contact. Which mean in normal ATC operations everywhere in the world to maintain that level unless cleared otherwise.(*)
As they never were, the use of that " Flight plan regulations , incomplete or badly understood pre-departure clearance, or pilot's responsibilities to ask for an amended clearance , is total bulls... to explain why they stayed at 370 all the way.
It looks like someone uses this to hide the ground deficiencies later on .
(*) The only point which is still not clear for me is from which point/time an eventual radio failure can be established , and if so, which radio failure procedures did apply.
They were replied to be under radar contact. Which mean in normal ATC operations everywhere in the world to maintain that level unless cleared otherwise.(*)
As they never were, the use of that " Flight plan regulations , incomplete or badly understood pre-departure clearance, or pilot's responsibilities to ask for an amended clearance , is total bulls... to explain why they stayed at 370 all the way.
It looks like someone uses this to hide the ground deficiencies later on .
(*) The only point which is still not clear for me is from which point/time an eventual radio failure can be established , and if so, which radio failure procedures did apply.
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It seems they were cleared to FL 370. What FL do you think they should have flown, given this clearance?
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The crew read back and accepted the clearance properly. That is how 100% of clearances are received. I tried to get a full route readback out of CCS one day because our company had revised our original route because of a controller strike and after several attempts with ground control and tower ended up calling departure control on taxi out to see what radial they wanted me to intercept after departure to get out of there.
Everybody that flys down there knows how difficult it is to have a nonstandard conversation with ATC that isn't exactly what they are expecting to hear. Cleared to FL370 is it. Anything else in your flight plan is meaningless unless you have lost com. Lost com is fairly normal for short periods down there so changing altitudes would be very stupid.
Everybody that flys down there knows how difficult it is to have a nonstandard conversation with ATC that isn't exactly what they are expecting to hear. Cleared to FL370 is it. Anything else in your flight plan is meaningless unless you have lost com. Lost com is fairly normal for short periods down there so changing altitudes would be very stupid.