Mid-air collision over Brasil
This is not "theoretically"; this is how it works.
The Legacy crew were at their cleared level. The Gol crew were at their cleared level.
Clearly, ATC thought the Legacy was at a different level.
"WHY?" will be the focus of the investigation. I hope. And as part of that investigation, the flight plans, communication difficulties, transponder failures, poor design of software and displays, and quite a few other things will come under the spotlight. I hope.
I would not want to work as a controller with equipment that gave such a poor indication that an element had failed, and as part of that, defaulted its display to a level I had not deliberately entered myself. (In this case, FL360.)
That it failed to work, in this case, is not a problem with the way aircraft are cleared, it is a problem with this particular combination of ATC, software, and probably a few other things, such as organization, training etc.
Given what I have read in this thread, the route and expected altitude change at a certain point wasn't the issue, here, it was a contributing factor. A big one, for sure, but still contributory. It could have happened anywhere there were two aircraft converging at the same level, one with a transponder out. I am sure there are places in Brazil where routes cross and aircraft at 89 degrees to each other can be at the same level, according to the quadrantal rule. (There sure are here.) In these cases the job of ATC is to ensure they will miss.
Of course, the chance of collision is greatly increased if they are both on the same or reciprocal tracks that are defined by GPS.
There is nothing in the clearance delivery or flight planning areas that authorizes a change to level, without direct communication with ATC at the time (or near the time) the change is requested.
The Legacy crew were at their cleared level. The Gol crew were at their cleared level.
Clearly, ATC thought the Legacy was at a different level.
"WHY?" will be the focus of the investigation. I hope. And as part of that investigation, the flight plans, communication difficulties, transponder failures, poor design of software and displays, and quite a few other things will come under the spotlight. I hope.
I would not want to work as a controller with equipment that gave such a poor indication that an element had failed, and as part of that, defaulted its display to a level I had not deliberately entered myself. (In this case, FL360.)
That it failed to work, in this case, is not a problem with the way aircraft are cleared, it is a problem with this particular combination of ATC, software, and probably a few other things, such as organization, training etc.
Given what I have read in this thread, the route and expected altitude change at a certain point wasn't the issue, here, it was a contributing factor. A big one, for sure, but still contributory. It could have happened anywhere there were two aircraft converging at the same level, one with a transponder out. I am sure there are places in Brazil where routes cross and aircraft at 89 degrees to each other can be at the same level, according to the quadrantal rule. (There sure are here.) In these cases the job of ATC is to ensure they will miss.
Of course, the chance of collision is greatly increased if they are both on the same or reciprocal tracks that are defined by GPS.
There is nothing in the clearance delivery or flight planning areas that authorizes a change to level, without direct communication with ATC at the time (or near the time) the change is requested.
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Sorry Sdruvss...
Sorry to see you go Sdruvss. But it indeed seems that we all have gone as far as we can go on this discussion. And we are now just repeating ourselves.
I would love to hear the tapes of the talk between São José and the Legacy (I hope someone is keeping them intact). The tapes will not lie.
Of course when approaching Brasilia the Legacy pilots said were they were and their altitute (they thought they were following the last flight plan cleared by ATC in São José). ATC in Brasilia wished them a nice trip and that is all. Yes, they were before Brasilia.
But when they were after Brasilia with the transponder ON the screen in Brasilia showed 370:360, that is, they were flying at 370 (the first number is the transponder data). Let me repeat the 360 entered there automatically without requiring that ATC talked to the pilots to confirm this. The International Association of Controllers in their report felt that this software was kind of odd, with such a data entering in the screen automatically. ATC said that the Legacy was being followed in their radar... This of course calmed the pilots of any aprehension they could have abou what they were doing.
Then the transponder went OFF and for almost one hour the radar screen showed that the transponder was off and that the data was not reliable: 360Z360, the first 360 coming from the automatic entrance of the original flight plane and the second coming from a military radar that everyone knew was unreliable for altitude. ATC did nothing and even when finally they talked with the Legacy, close to the disaster time, it was to tell them the frequency they should speak to Manaus.
Even if the pilots misunderstood the clearance from ATC in São José and thought they could fly 370 until Eduardo Gomes Airport (Manaus) there was plenty of time and opportunity for ATC to correct what proved to be a colision route.
But I guess I will become quiet too on this issues from now on until we have new data.
Regards to all.
I would love to hear the tapes of the talk between São José and the Legacy (I hope someone is keeping them intact). The tapes will not lie.
Of course when approaching Brasilia the Legacy pilots said were they were and their altitute (they thought they were following the last flight plan cleared by ATC in São José). ATC in Brasilia wished them a nice trip and that is all. Yes, they were before Brasilia.
But when they were after Brasilia with the transponder ON the screen in Brasilia showed 370:360, that is, they were flying at 370 (the first number is the transponder data). Let me repeat the 360 entered there automatically without requiring that ATC talked to the pilots to confirm this. The International Association of Controllers in their report felt that this software was kind of odd, with such a data entering in the screen automatically. ATC said that the Legacy was being followed in their radar... This of course calmed the pilots of any aprehension they could have abou what they were doing.
Then the transponder went OFF and for almost one hour the radar screen showed that the transponder was off and that the data was not reliable: 360Z360, the first 360 coming from the automatic entrance of the original flight plane and the second coming from a military radar that everyone knew was unreliable for altitude. ATC did nothing and even when finally they talked with the Legacy, close to the disaster time, it was to tell them the frequency they should speak to Manaus.
Even if the pilots misunderstood the clearance from ATC in São José and thought they could fly 370 until Eduardo Gomes Airport (Manaus) there was plenty of time and opportunity for ATC to correct what proved to be a colision route.
But I guess I will become quiet too on this issues from now on until we have new data.
Regards to all.
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Let's go on.
Like many others I am following thread interested, because many times I flew, as a tourist and working in Brazil, and I am very well impressed with that country, airports and people. And I just registered to say one thing. Someone said americans is cleared to FL 370 at 3:11 pm by Sao José dos Campos, and he showed clearly that american plane was not and showed that american plane did not understand names of the cities and airport. Legacy were unable to acknowledge and confirm Pozos de Caldas, and I know that it is a difficult city name to pronounce. American plane also didn’t understand the name of Manaus airport.
Why is difficult for people here to understand that Americans misunderstood clearance? Why PPrune member repeat clearance rules that all understand. OK, americans thought they had a clearance but he had not, this is a fact, planes collided, what more must said? Let’s go on, stop repeating the same rules, because I like to reach the end of this history.
Why is difficult for people here to understand that Americans misunderstood clearance? Why PPrune member repeat clearance rules that all understand. OK, americans thought they had a clearance but he had not, this is a fact, planes collided, what more must said? Let’s go on, stop repeating the same rules, because I like to reach the end of this history.
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poorwanderingwun,
Let's go ahead. Everybody said all, and every one makes their mind. It's not necessary that all agree. Let's talk about other stuff, as the transponder stuff for instance. And I can tell you, Brazil is not what you think. If you know it you didn't use those words.
Let's go ahead. Everybody said all, and every one makes their mind. It's not necessary that all agree. Let's talk about other stuff, as the transponder stuff for instance. And I can tell you, Brazil is not what you think. If you know it you didn't use those words.
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Pprune Administrator
I, for one, will take my leave of this forum as so much time, energy , vitriol and hand holding is spent dealing with the SLF, lawyers and other clowns who know nothing about a technical subject and are allowed to clutter-up the space with non-sense such as exhibited in the past few days of posts, to say nothing of the past six months, so be it.
73's, au revoir, over and out.
73's, au revoir, over and out.
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A310driver,
I like very much yours comments, and it would be a shame if you do not participate. It is not important if we agree or not each other. All contributions seems very important. Do not be upset if people do not understand you, and do not agree with you, it is a language problem, I am sure. This is democracy.
I like very much yours comments, and it would be a shame if you do not participate. It is not important if we agree or not each other. All contributions seems very important. Do not be upset if people do not understand you, and do not agree with you, it is a language problem, I am sure. This is democracy.
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A310driver
I had to register to answer that:
If I were you, I would take care with those words. One of this clowns can put in jail if you are not able to explain yourself when you kill 154 innocent people, as Joe Lepore and Jan Paul Paladino.
[...] spent dealing with the SLF, lawyers and other clowns
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To PBL
you are claiming that Lepore and Paladino killed people. That is a criminal charge. Please give your legal reasons for publically making such a charge.
I take it you are aware that there is no evidence in the official investigative documents that will support such a charge, and plenty of evidence that will refute it categorically?
I take it you are aware that there is no evidence in the official investigative documents that will support such a charge, and plenty of evidence that will refute it categorically?
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I have read every post on this thread from the date of the accident. If anyone was negligent here, it was the Air Force employed ATC people with a contribution from obsolete equipment and software. The Legacy pilots, for the millionth time, adhered to the altitude to which ATC had cleared them , an altitude clearance which was never amended or changed.
attlaw, you are embarassing your presumably great nation with such remarks.
Your government, your nation has a system problem which caused this horrific collision.
attlaw, you are embarassing your presumably great nation with such remarks.
Your government, your nation has a system problem which caused this horrific collision.
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PBL,
All that should be said already was. People who read this thread will make their own judgment. This is not a court. And you may not judge us. No one needs to accept or deny evidences. No one needs to give any evidence that you ask. People are here because wants to understand what happened with this tragedy. People aren’t here to accept your judgment, but just know your respectably expert opinion. People here would like to make their minds by themselves, but you and a group of experts here insist that all folks agree with you. Anyone may make their own interpretation of the evidences. If some questions bother you and this group of experts, just don’t answer. It’s simple as that. You are the owner of this site, so delete what you want, delete the questions you don’t want to answer, delete opinions that are contrary of yours. You may do all you want with this forum. But if you keep it open, you will hear what you don’t want. Don’t pretend with this kind of forum that your technical view is shared by all the word. It is not. I suggest you to make a blog instead, then you publish your articles, and accept the comments you approve. What upsets me is that there is no one Brazilian expert participating in this forum. I think they have their reasons. I thought you are an ethical person but you are not, I was naïve. You are the kind that calls descent people like me of clowns, and some of them could be judging Legacy pilots very soon. It's better to convince them not calling them clowns.
Shame on you.
All that should be said already was. People who read this thread will make their own judgment. This is not a court. And you may not judge us. No one needs to accept or deny evidences. No one needs to give any evidence that you ask. People are here because wants to understand what happened with this tragedy. People aren’t here to accept your judgment, but just know your respectably expert opinion. People here would like to make their minds by themselves, but you and a group of experts here insist that all folks agree with you. Anyone may make their own interpretation of the evidences. If some questions bother you and this group of experts, just don’t answer. It’s simple as that. You are the owner of this site, so delete what you want, delete the questions you don’t want to answer, delete opinions that are contrary of yours. You may do all you want with this forum. But if you keep it open, you will hear what you don’t want. Don’t pretend with this kind of forum that your technical view is shared by all the word. It is not. I suggest you to make a blog instead, then you publish your articles, and accept the comments you approve. What upsets me is that there is no one Brazilian expert participating in this forum. I think they have their reasons. I thought you are an ethical person but you are not, I was naïve. You are the kind that calls descent people like me of clowns, and some of them could be judging Legacy pilots very soon. It's better to convince them not calling them clowns.
Shame on you.
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attlaw, if your kind of judgement of the facts is what the Legacy pilots can expect from the Brazilian legal system, perhaps it would be best if they chose not to attend your party. And if Sdruvss is an example of how well a lay person in Brazil understands technical detail and facts despite having things repeatedly explained, then even more reason for the Legacy pilots to send an RSVP in the negative. If I were them, I would not attend any proceedings unless granted complete immunity from prosecution.
A question: is the Brazilian ATC system/software/personnel any better today than it was a year ago?
A question: is the Brazilian ATC system/software/personnel any better today than it was a year ago?
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After reading the responses of attlaw and Sdruvss I have come to the conclusion that for Lepore and Paladino to return to Brazil would be suicide.
Sr. Sdruvss has repeatedly ask the same question repeatedly insinuating that the Legacy crew purposely flew at the wrong Flight Level. He offers no reason of logic for this accusation, he offers no proof that the Legacy ignored ATC, he has not offered any evidence that ATC ever ordered a Flight Level change from 370 to 360. Instead he keeps insisting that the Legacy crew should have either changed their assigned Flight Level without ATC clearance just because the flight plan filed had 360 for the requested flight level.
Every professional pilot and experience Air Traffic Controller in this thread has answered Sr. Sdruvss calmly, professionally and politely informing him that his premise totally incorrect and is against ICAO and all rules of aviation Air Traffic Control. However, in spite of and in the face of all the the accurate, valid information provided to Sr. Sdruvss he still indicates that we are all wrong. Still he offers no evidence of his assertions.
Now, just as soon as Sr. Sdruvss signs off from Pprune we have Sr. attlaw sign on and blatantly accuse Lepore and Paladino of murder. Then his response after being challenged he posts the following all but accusing us of lying.
Therefore Sr. attlaw I would ask you to please supply that myself or any one else in this thread The evidences are in this thread and in the way people here try to cover and distort evidences of the official investigative documents. Just in case you are unaware of this fact a 'official investigative document' is just that, not the rule of law.
As for Sr. pa.000.blo, just another non-professional giving opinions that he has no background, education or experience to qualify him as a knowledgeable person in aviation matters. To wit:
Okay, I'm done.
Sr. Sdruvss has repeatedly ask the same question repeatedly insinuating that the Legacy crew purposely flew at the wrong Flight Level. He offers no reason of logic for this accusation, he offers no proof that the Legacy ignored ATC, he has not offered any evidence that ATC ever ordered a Flight Level change from 370 to 360. Instead he keeps insisting that the Legacy crew should have either changed their assigned Flight Level without ATC clearance just because the flight plan filed had 360 for the requested flight level.
Every professional pilot and experience Air Traffic Controller in this thread has answered Sr. Sdruvss calmly, professionally and politely informing him that his premise totally incorrect and is against ICAO and all rules of aviation Air Traffic Control. However, in spite of and in the face of all the the accurate, valid information provided to Sr. Sdruvss he still indicates that we are all wrong. Still he offers no evidence of his assertions.
Now, just as soon as Sr. Sdruvss signs off from Pprune we have Sr. attlaw sign on and blatantly accuse Lepore and Paladino of murder. Then his response after being challenged he posts the following all but accusing us of lying.
The evidences are in this thread and in the way people here try to cover and distort evidences of the official investigative documents. If I had any doubt about Legacy pilots guilty before, you and other pilots here convinced me that they are.
As for Sr. pa.000.blo, just another non-professional giving opinions that he has no background, education or experience to qualify him as a knowledgeable person in aviation matters. To wit:
Like many others I am following thread interested, because many times I flew, as a tourist and working in Brazil, and I am very well impressed with that country, airports and people. And I just registered to say one thing. Someone said americans is cleared to FL 370 at 3:11 pm by Sao José dos Campos, and he showed clearly that american plane was not and showed that american plane did not understand names of the cities and airport. Legacy were unable to acknowledge and confirm Pozos de Caldas, and I know that it is a difficult city name to pronounce. American plane also didn’t understand the name of Manaus airport.
Why is difficult for people here to understand that Americans misunderstood clearance? Why PPrune member repeat clearance rules that all understand. OK, americans thought they had a clearance but he had not, this is a fact, planes collided, what more must said? Let’s go on, stop repeating the same rules, because I like to reach the end of this history.
Why is difficult for people here to understand that Americans misunderstood clearance? Why PPrune member repeat clearance rules that all understand. OK, americans thought they had a clearance but he had not, this is a fact, planes collided, what more must said? Let’s go on, stop repeating the same rules, because I like to reach the end of this history.
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I see you ignored the last question: Is the Brazilian ATC system/software/personnel any better today than it was a year ago?
And one more question for the group as a whole... what does Mr. attlaw have to do to violate his probationary period here? Seems to me that he has stepped way over that line!
And one more question for the group as a whole... what does Mr. attlaw have to do to violate his probationary period here? Seems to me that he has stepped way over that line!
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No Robert, it is not. Acctually it is safe enough to say that it is way worse it was a year ago...that is why I am trying to get the hell out of here 
(I am Brazilian, but I am not blind).
Rgds
(I am Brazilian, but I am not blind).Rgds
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Atlaw, do not shoot at the wrong target, it is not PBL who mentioned “ self loading cargo , Lawyers and other clowns “ , it was A310 driver.
You seem upset to be associated with clowns, I can understand that but I can understand as well what A310 was trying to say. Neophytes in aviation have a tendency, when confronted with an accident, to see conspiracies everywhere and deny simple basic facts. . This is human nature I guess.
Nobody here is trying to make up your mind for you or to mislead you away from the truth. Some of us have knowledge you do not have and are trying to educate persons like you, that unfortunately, as you rightly said, can send us to jail for a long time because they had formed a wrong impression. The Linate trial after the Ground collision there is a prime example of this.
You are at least honest and put in your profile who you really are : an attorney in Brazil involved with that case .
This is for this reason that I am still here, talking to you. Some could say wasting my time, but I have been there before.
I am glad you are here talking to us, because maybe I can convince you of something : Nobody , not any pilot, not any controller that I know of would willingly put the life of others at risk. Circumstances, are putting people in a position to do great harm, but the conditions leading to those actions are never simple , because multiple.
Focusing on the Flight level issue, or on the 2 Americans pilots , is, in my opinion totally wrong, but perhaps this is where the FAB wants you to look at. Blame 2 foreign pilots and 4 low rank controllers , so that 154 people died because of single human errors, so that the whole system is safe. Humans errors is like people not doing their jobs. Send them to jail and Brazil is safe. End of the story.
Never look at how the ATC system is programmed, what it shows to controllers when something is odd, what is the real, actual radar coverage above the area in question, and what is the quality of the radar returns,. Do not question the authorities that put a transfer of communications between 2 major ATC centers in a zone of known lack of VHF coverage, and of radar coverage ( at least from Brasilia ) .
Never ask how your national manufacturer, Embraer put a PRIMUS avionic suite in their aircraft so badly programmed, that a foot rest or a wrong input can switch the transponder off, make it invisible to TCAS and do not warn the pilots about it.
I could continue the list, but I thing you got my point by now.
If your aim is to learn the truth, then ask those questions, BEFORE, there is plenty of time afterwards to determine the percentage of responsibility for each player.
But for us here, the professionals in this forum , the aim is not to see people blamed. The aim is to make sure the Brazilian authorities understand what is wrong , change the procedures and the systems accordingly , in order that a collision like this one never happens again in Brazil.
I rest my case.
You seem upset to be associated with clowns, I can understand that but I can understand as well what A310 was trying to say. Neophytes in aviation have a tendency, when confronted with an accident, to see conspiracies everywhere and deny simple basic facts. . This is human nature I guess.
Nobody here is trying to make up your mind for you or to mislead you away from the truth. Some of us have knowledge you do not have and are trying to educate persons like you, that unfortunately, as you rightly said, can send us to jail for a long time because they had formed a wrong impression. The Linate trial after the Ground collision there is a prime example of this.
You are at least honest and put in your profile who you really are : an attorney in Brazil involved with that case .
This is for this reason that I am still here, talking to you. Some could say wasting my time, but I have been there before.
I am glad you are here talking to us, because maybe I can convince you of something : Nobody , not any pilot, not any controller that I know of would willingly put the life of others at risk. Circumstances, are putting people in a position to do great harm, but the conditions leading to those actions are never simple , because multiple.
Focusing on the Flight level issue, or on the 2 Americans pilots , is, in my opinion totally wrong, but perhaps this is where the FAB wants you to look at. Blame 2 foreign pilots and 4 low rank controllers , so that 154 people died because of single human errors, so that the whole system is safe. Humans errors is like people not doing their jobs. Send them to jail and Brazil is safe. End of the story.
Never look at how the ATC system is programmed, what it shows to controllers when something is odd, what is the real, actual radar coverage above the area in question, and what is the quality of the radar returns,. Do not question the authorities that put a transfer of communications between 2 major ATC centers in a zone of known lack of VHF coverage, and of radar coverage ( at least from Brasilia ) .
Never ask how your national manufacturer, Embraer put a PRIMUS avionic suite in their aircraft so badly programmed, that a foot rest or a wrong input can switch the transponder off, make it invisible to TCAS and do not warn the pilots about it.
I could continue the list, but I thing you got my point by now.
If your aim is to learn the truth, then ask those questions, BEFORE, there is plenty of time afterwards to determine the percentage of responsibility for each player.
But for us here, the professionals in this forum , the aim is not to see people blamed. The aim is to make sure the Brazilian authorities understand what is wrong , change the procedures and the systems accordingly , in order that a collision like this one never happens again in Brazil.
I rest my case.
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Until anything new comes out of this investigation on why two airplanes at the same altitude flew into each other on the same route in opposite directions in controlled airspace we should stop repeating ourselves. Wait until something not already discussed is revealed to continue with this thread.
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PBL said:
bubbers44 said:
poorwanderingwun, a310driver,
That is what I did mean. I will keep my mouth shut.
please let's keep this thread factual and on-topic.
Until anything new comes out of this investigation on why two airplanes at the same altitude flew into each other on the same route in opposite directions in controlled airspace we should stop repeating ourselves
That is what I did mean. I will keep my mouth shut.
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Folks,
I restarted (reprovoked?) this thread on 21 August (post #1177) after a couple weeks silence (since 7 August) and a longer silence (essentially since 21 July).
I posted on 21 August because we have done some analysis of the accident from public information, and because I am concerned about the legal difficulties of 2 U.S. pilots and 4 Brazilian controllers. And I said so.
What then transpired has been eye-opening. We have been joined by three declared Brazilian non-pilots (indeed, two who are self-declared attorneys and one who is married to an attorney).
Of these three, just one engaged in technical discussion. But his repeated denial of the facts of air traffic control, and his attempted questioning of material in the Factual Statement of last October from NTSB/CENIPA, as well as his ad hominem comments, left little apparent room for genuine discussion. I suspect that he had an agenda that he was not sharing with us; Marciovp suggested what this agenda might be in his post #1253.
But he did introduce some important text (unfortunately without attribution). Marciovp told us this text came from the report of the CIP. The reason the text is important is not that is is fault-free, but precisely *that it contains reasoning that is alien to people familiar with air traffic control*. This is an governmental legal document which is making public the way that the Brazilian government sees ATC and aviation, and its reasoning appears to be at variance with international standards on ATC procedures. This is *hugely important*.
Does anybody have a copy of the entire document that they could share? I am e-mailable, and I do read portuguese.
One Brazilian amateur pilot has joined us and has contributed to technical discussion, and has made some decisive interventions (for example, identifying the source of the document above). One Venezuelan and one Spanish contributor have joined us but not yet contributed to the technical discussion.
There have been a large number of posts explaining the basics of air traffic control, and the contract between pilots and controllers. Since this is repetitive, and to many of us stuff that we have known for many years, some of the more technically-minded, aviation-experienced people are signing off.
This is a difficult discussion for a number of reasons. One reason is that there appear to be differences in what is acceptable in discussion protocol amongst various contributors. A second is that the difficulties that, on the one hand, pilots and air traffic controllers and, on the other hand, the Brazilian legal establishment seem to be having with each other are coming to the surface.
I propose that that is a good thing. Let's think of this discussion as an experiment in testing the persuasive strength of arguments. (In places in which the word does not have a perjorative meaning, this is known as rhetoric. Yes, logic is a part.)
The pilots of N600XL are in difficulties; the controllers are in difficulties; the first thing that possible helpers have to know is, in detail, what sort of reasoning is putting them in those difficulties. This kind of inquiry is not for everyone - I can quite understand if some people sign off - but I can assure people from personal experience that the best legal arguments are constructed on the basis of knowing *exactly what the other side is claiming*. That is why the CIP document, in portuguese, is so important.
I don't see any way that discussion can be easy. One first task for those concerned with the fate of the 6 participants is to understand where Sdruvss was coming from. His stance appeared irrational and stubborn to those familiar with the procedures of air traffic control, since he seemed to be comfortable denying established fact, but he was assuring us that many thought like him, and he is, obviously, not without legal experience. So let's simply believe him when he says he represents the many.
The question is, then, how is one to prevail with argument in a milieu in which everyone thinks and argues as he did. Now, he gave up and went away. Why? Is it because he finally could not answer the arguments presented to him (which is what I suspect), or is it simply because he felt outnumbered? If the latter, then we haven't necessarily found out what arguments would prevail in a forum consisting of all the people that think like him.
But it is crucial to helping the 6 participants to know that.
So, how to move forward? I am going back and deleting all my posts since 21 August that did not contribute persistent, pertinent information. I invite all serious discussants to do similarly with theirs.
Somebody with access please send me the CIP documents.
PBL
I restarted (reprovoked?) this thread on 21 August (post #1177) after a couple weeks silence (since 7 August) and a longer silence (essentially since 21 July).
I posted on 21 August because we have done some analysis of the accident from public information, and because I am concerned about the legal difficulties of 2 U.S. pilots and 4 Brazilian controllers. And I said so.
What then transpired has been eye-opening. We have been joined by three declared Brazilian non-pilots (indeed, two who are self-declared attorneys and one who is married to an attorney).
Of these three, just one engaged in technical discussion. But his repeated denial of the facts of air traffic control, and his attempted questioning of material in the Factual Statement of last October from NTSB/CENIPA, as well as his ad hominem comments, left little apparent room for genuine discussion. I suspect that he had an agenda that he was not sharing with us; Marciovp suggested what this agenda might be in his post #1253.
But he did introduce some important text (unfortunately without attribution). Marciovp told us this text came from the report of the CIP. The reason the text is important is not that is is fault-free, but precisely *that it contains reasoning that is alien to people familiar with air traffic control*. This is an governmental legal document which is making public the way that the Brazilian government sees ATC and aviation, and its reasoning appears to be at variance with international standards on ATC procedures. This is *hugely important*.
Does anybody have a copy of the entire document that they could share? I am e-mailable, and I do read portuguese.
One Brazilian amateur pilot has joined us and has contributed to technical discussion, and has made some decisive interventions (for example, identifying the source of the document above). One Venezuelan and one Spanish contributor have joined us but not yet contributed to the technical discussion.
There have been a large number of posts explaining the basics of air traffic control, and the contract between pilots and controllers. Since this is repetitive, and to many of us stuff that we have known for many years, some of the more technically-minded, aviation-experienced people are signing off.
This is a difficult discussion for a number of reasons. One reason is that there appear to be differences in what is acceptable in discussion protocol amongst various contributors. A second is that the difficulties that, on the one hand, pilots and air traffic controllers and, on the other hand, the Brazilian legal establishment seem to be having with each other are coming to the surface.
I propose that that is a good thing. Let's think of this discussion as an experiment in testing the persuasive strength of arguments. (In places in which the word does not have a perjorative meaning, this is known as rhetoric. Yes, logic is a part.)
The pilots of N600XL are in difficulties; the controllers are in difficulties; the first thing that possible helpers have to know is, in detail, what sort of reasoning is putting them in those difficulties. This kind of inquiry is not for everyone - I can quite understand if some people sign off - but I can assure people from personal experience that the best legal arguments are constructed on the basis of knowing *exactly what the other side is claiming*. That is why the CIP document, in portuguese, is so important.
I don't see any way that discussion can be easy. One first task for those concerned with the fate of the 6 participants is to understand where Sdruvss was coming from. His stance appeared irrational and stubborn to those familiar with the procedures of air traffic control, since he seemed to be comfortable denying established fact, but he was assuring us that many thought like him, and he is, obviously, not without legal experience. So let's simply believe him when he says he represents the many.
The question is, then, how is one to prevail with argument in a milieu in which everyone thinks and argues as he did. Now, he gave up and went away. Why? Is it because he finally could not answer the arguments presented to him (which is what I suspect), or is it simply because he felt outnumbered? If the latter, then we haven't necessarily found out what arguments would prevail in a forum consisting of all the people that think like him.
But it is crucial to helping the 6 participants to know that.
So, how to move forward? I am going back and deleting all my posts since 21 August that did not contribute persistent, pertinent information. I invite all serious discussants to do similarly with theirs.
Somebody with access please send me the CIP documents.
PBL
PBL
I applaud your willingness to help streamline this discussion to pertinent points supported by facts.
I wonder if it might be a lot quicker if a mod would simply delete all posts in the last two months.
I applaud your willingness to help streamline this discussion to pertinent points supported by facts.
I wonder if it might be a lot quicker if a mod would simply delete all posts in the last two months.
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo
I wonder if it might be a lot quicker if a mod would simply delete all posts in the last two months.
No, because then we would lose some crucial information on how this situation is being handled in Brazil.
PBL