Mid-air collision over Brasil
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Reckless endangerment charges recommended for LI pilots
Reckless endangerment charges recommended for LI pilots
But the recommendation is likely to have little or no impact because the Brazilian Congress has no authority to charge anyone with a crime and the pilots and traffic controllers have already been indicted by a federal court on lesser charges.
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So, who wants to volunteer to test the authority of the legislative body that writes the laws?
Part of the pre-flight briefing for operation in Brazil in addition to WX and NOTAM's should include the current laws/policies in effect at ETD, the forecast for changes in laws at ETA, and the trend for ETA+24h.
Part of the pre-flight briefing for operation in Brazil in addition to WX and NOTAM's should include the current laws/policies in effect at ETD, the forecast for changes in laws at ETA, and the trend for ETA+24h.
Last edited by A310driver; 21st Jul 2007 at 17:10.
A310, you'd never be suspected of THAT!
The recommendation the Legacy pilots be charged is part of the political process. Now that the Gol crash has been superceded by the TAM one all eyes focuss elsewhere; other witches to hunt and the congressional investigation committee have to allow everyone his or her five minutes of limelight.
Just for the record, a CENIPA colonel at a press conference yesterday was very incisive in saying "We are not interested in establishing blame, we are here to establish facts and help to ensure that accidents do not repeat themselves. And we do NOT release tapes or data prior to publishing the full report; in the case of the GOL accident we were specifically ordered to and had no option but to obey". He said more along those lines and there was a not inconsiderable dose of bitterness in his tone, at all the political meddling and second-guessing.
The recommendation the Legacy pilots be charged is part of the political process. Now that the Gol crash has been superceded by the TAM one all eyes focuss elsewhere; other witches to hunt and the congressional investigation committee have to allow everyone his or her five minutes of limelight.
Just for the record, a CENIPA colonel at a press conference yesterday was very incisive in saying "We are not interested in establishing blame, we are here to establish facts and help to ensure that accidents do not repeat themselves. And we do NOT release tapes or data prior to publishing the full report; in the case of the GOL accident we were specifically ordered to and had no option but to obey". He said more along those lines and there was a not inconsiderable dose of bitterness in his tone, at all the political meddling and second-guessing.
Last edited by broadreach; 27th Jul 2007 at 14:55.
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The Brazilians have said that the Gol captain HIMSELF remained calm throughout the ordeal trying to figure out how to regain control of the aircraft but sadly there was no possibility of recovery with the aircraft rolling uncontrollably. Excessive G-forces broke it apart at about 6,000 feet.
Last edited by punkalouver; 8th Aug 2007 at 00:05.
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has the cvr been released from the GOL 737? (in english transcript)?
In the final analysis, we can learn from the film "fate is the hunter" (coffee)
if a foot on a foot rest can screw up the radio stack...ouch
In the final analysis, we can learn from the film "fate is the hunter" (coffee)
if a foot on a foot rest can screw up the radio stack...ouch
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This thread seems to have gotten little traffic recently. As some might be aware, we have been following public developments quite closely. My colleague Jörn Stuphorn has performed a (very) preliminary Why-Because Analysis of the accident from the publically-available information. The Why-Because Graph of the accident is discussed in a presentation at the Ninth Bieleschweig Workshop in Hamburg in May 2007:
http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/Biel...rnB9Slides.pdf
I would particularly like to know:
* Who is investigating the accident now? (CENIPA, a Policia Federal, CIP, who else?)
* Who can bring criminal charges? Who has jurisdiction over criminal proceedings? And who not?
* Who can bring civil charges? Against whom? For what?
I would be grateful for any information. If this info isn't of general interest, maybe private message would be appropriate.
PBL
http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/Biel...rnB9Slides.pdf
I would particularly like to know:
* Who is investigating the accident now? (CENIPA, a Policia Federal, CIP, who else?)
* Who can bring criminal charges? Who has jurisdiction over criminal proceedings? And who not?
* Who can bring civil charges? Against whom? For what?
I would be grateful for any information. If this info isn't of general interest, maybe private message would be appropriate.
PBL
Pegase Driver
Dear Professor ,
Always nice to hear from you. The questions you asked are best answered by someone in Brazil, but most of the answers can be found already in this thread , these are however remarks made by individuals on internet and might not be the real picture . As far as we are aware CENIPA is conducting the Accident Investigation as per ICAO Annex 13,. Nothing else. The police investigation is another matter, and law in Brazil is particular. For instance a Judge in a very small community in Mato Grosso seem to want to make a name for himself.
The journal of IFATCA (the controller magazine at http://www.the-controller.net) had a good series or articles in its last March issue, and I am told that another series of articles on the legal issues of this accident is due in their September edition.
Good luck,
Always nice to hear from you. The questions you asked are best answered by someone in Brazil, but most of the answers can be found already in this thread , these are however remarks made by individuals on internet and might not be the real picture . As far as we are aware CENIPA is conducting the Accident Investigation as per ICAO Annex 13,. Nothing else. The police investigation is another matter, and law in Brazil is particular. For instance a Judge in a very small community in Mato Grosso seem to want to make a name for himself.
The journal of IFATCA (the controller magazine at http://www.the-controller.net) had a good series or articles in its last March issue, and I am told that another series of articles on the legal issues of this accident is due in their September edition.
Good luck,
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Almost one year...
Almost one year now after the Boeing/Legacy accident. Someone from the press said to me that the final report is coming out soon, from CENIPA the Air Force Agency that deals with investigation and prevention. CENIPA officers have said more that one time that they are not going after blamming people. Just learn in order to prevent. NTSB is helping.
But, sorry to say, in Brazil everyone got into the act of deciding who is to blame: Federal Police (already issues their final report blamming four controllers from Cyndacta-Brasilia and the two Legacy pilots). the State Police (the same), the House of Representatives Committee (the same), the Senate Committee, just to mention the more importante ones.
As far as I know the Legacy pilots had originally a written plan for the flight from Sao Jose to Manaus. Sao Jose-Brasilia 370, Brasilia to somewhere on the way to Manaus 360, then climb to 380 to end the trip in Manaus. But after leaving Sao Jose the controller there said to them to go to Manaus at 370. Of course they changed their plan.
They came close to Brasilia, spoke with the controllers saying that they were at 370. Nothing else was said and they kept 370. The software at Cyndacta in Brasilia showed 370:360 on the radar screen for seven minutes. The 360 was there because the original flight plan called for 360...not for anything else. The 370 was the real altitude. The controllers did not do anything.
Then the transponder from the Legacy went off, and the screen showed this clearly. A primary radar from the airforce took over and read wrongly 360. The screen showed 360Z360 but the icon in the screen showed clearly that the transponder was not sending info. Actually showed the + was not circled as it shoud if info was coming from the transponder. This was there for about one hour and the Cyndacta people did not try to tell the pilots that their transpoder was off. Close to the end the Legacy and the Cyndacat in Brasilia tried to talk by radio with each other many times to no avail. Then the disaster.
The controllers said from the beginning that yes they had problems because of the equipments and the software in Brasilia and Manaus. The Air Force, that administers Air Traffic in Brazil, from the beginning said that there was nothing wrong with the equipments and software. The International Association of controllers supported them and denounced faulty software and equipments in Brazil. The Air Force denies it to this date. The Controllers in fact became so upset when they felt that they were going to be blamed that they started operation slow down and at one point even went into strike. As they are military of the Air Force (low rank) some of them are now being prosecuted for the crime of "motim" by the Air Force.
One problem in Brasil is that the investigation agency CENIPA belongs to the Air Force who is also one of the players in this game (they administer Air Traffic in Brazil).
Yes there was a tendency from the beginning to blame the north american pilots. Their passports were retained and they had to stay in Rio for many days before finally they were allowed to go. I remember seeing the Minister of Defense from Brazil in TV, shortly after the disaster, blaming the northamerican pilots. Saying crazy things like they disconnected the transponder because they wanted to do stunts to test the new plane...and did not want to be seen.
For long time there was indeed the question of why the transponder was disconnected such a long time until the FAA came with the recommendation about the resting foot below the panel of the Legacy.
The Legacy is still at Cachimbo where it landed because a judge somewhere confiscated it from Excelair to pay compensation for the families if they were judged gulty. It is there with the damage in the wing tip and back.
As a Brazilian I feel somewhat embarassed by all this comotion and hasty judgements. I wonder if we can have the same thing in other parts of the world. I am very curious now how the final report from CENIPA is going to say.
But, sorry to say, in Brazil everyone got into the act of deciding who is to blame: Federal Police (already issues their final report blamming four controllers from Cyndacta-Brasilia and the two Legacy pilots). the State Police (the same), the House of Representatives Committee (the same), the Senate Committee, just to mention the more importante ones.
As far as I know the Legacy pilots had originally a written plan for the flight from Sao Jose to Manaus. Sao Jose-Brasilia 370, Brasilia to somewhere on the way to Manaus 360, then climb to 380 to end the trip in Manaus. But after leaving Sao Jose the controller there said to them to go to Manaus at 370. Of course they changed their plan.
They came close to Brasilia, spoke with the controllers saying that they were at 370. Nothing else was said and they kept 370. The software at Cyndacta in Brasilia showed 370:360 on the radar screen for seven minutes. The 360 was there because the original flight plan called for 360...not for anything else. The 370 was the real altitude. The controllers did not do anything.
Then the transponder from the Legacy went off, and the screen showed this clearly. A primary radar from the airforce took over and read wrongly 360. The screen showed 360Z360 but the icon in the screen showed clearly that the transponder was not sending info. Actually showed the + was not circled as it shoud if info was coming from the transponder. This was there for about one hour and the Cyndacta people did not try to tell the pilots that their transpoder was off. Close to the end the Legacy and the Cyndacat in Brasilia tried to talk by radio with each other many times to no avail. Then the disaster.
The controllers said from the beginning that yes they had problems because of the equipments and the software in Brasilia and Manaus. The Air Force, that administers Air Traffic in Brazil, from the beginning said that there was nothing wrong with the equipments and software. The International Association of controllers supported them and denounced faulty software and equipments in Brazil. The Air Force denies it to this date. The Controllers in fact became so upset when they felt that they were going to be blamed that they started operation slow down and at one point even went into strike. As they are military of the Air Force (low rank) some of them are now being prosecuted for the crime of "motim" by the Air Force.
One problem in Brasil is that the investigation agency CENIPA belongs to the Air Force who is also one of the players in this game (they administer Air Traffic in Brazil).
Yes there was a tendency from the beginning to blame the north american pilots. Their passports were retained and they had to stay in Rio for many days before finally they were allowed to go. I remember seeing the Minister of Defense from Brazil in TV, shortly after the disaster, blaming the northamerican pilots. Saying crazy things like they disconnected the transponder because they wanted to do stunts to test the new plane...and did not want to be seen.
For long time there was indeed the question of why the transponder was disconnected such a long time until the FAA came with the recommendation about the resting foot below the panel of the Legacy.
The Legacy is still at Cachimbo where it landed because a judge somewhere confiscated it from Excelair to pay compensation for the families if they were judged gulty. It is there with the damage in the wing tip and back.
As a Brazilian I feel somewhat embarassed by all this comotion and hasty judgements. I wonder if we can have the same thing in other parts of the world. I am very curious now how the final report from CENIPA is going to say.
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From Avweb
Brazilian Judge Wants U.S. Pilots in His Court
CNN say a judge in Brazil has turned down a request from Long Island bizjet pilots Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino to use a U.S. court to testify about their role in a collision between their Embraer 600 and a GOL Boeing 737 that resulted in the deaths of all 154 aboard the airliner last year. The pilots have a date in front of Judge Murilo Mendes on Monday but their lawyer Joel Weiss says they don't mind telling their story under oath but they'd rather do it within sight of the Statue of Liberty. Weiss says the U.S. and Brazil have a treaty that allows this type of long-distance testimony. Ironically, it's the Brazilians who fear they won't get a fair shake from the process. A court spokesman said Mendes is afraid a U.S. judge will filter his questions.
The pilots are charged with endangering an aircraft. The Brazilians say they either turned off their transponder or failed to notice it wasn't working and that prevented the TCAS on the 737 from alerting its pilots to the fact that controllers had cleared both aircraft to the same altitude, on the same airway going in opposite directions. The controllers are being dealt with by the Brazilian military, which runs air traffic control there. Mendes hasn't said what he'll do if the pilots don't show.
Brazilian Judge Wants U.S. Pilots in His Court
CNN say a judge in Brazil has turned down a request from Long Island bizjet pilots Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino to use a U.S. court to testify about their role in a collision between their Embraer 600 and a GOL Boeing 737 that resulted in the deaths of all 154 aboard the airliner last year. The pilots have a date in front of Judge Murilo Mendes on Monday but their lawyer Joel Weiss says they don't mind telling their story under oath but they'd rather do it within sight of the Statue of Liberty. Weiss says the U.S. and Brazil have a treaty that allows this type of long-distance testimony. Ironically, it's the Brazilians who fear they won't get a fair shake from the process. A court spokesman said Mendes is afraid a U.S. judge will filter his questions.
The pilots are charged with endangering an aircraft. The Brazilians say they either turned off their transponder or failed to notice it wasn't working and that prevented the TCAS on the 737 from alerting its pilots to the fact that controllers had cleared both aircraft to the same altitude, on the same airway going in opposite directions. The controllers are being dealt with by the Brazilian military, which runs air traffic control there. Mendes hasn't said what he'll do if the pilots don't show.
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The Legacy pilots have an interesting choice:
1) Never again go near Brazilian territory, thus enduring the scorn of that nation's system of justice; or
2) Return to Brazil, and face worldwide suspicion regarding their sanity.
1) Never again go near Brazilian territory, thus enduring the scorn of that nation's system of justice; or
2) Return to Brazil, and face worldwide suspicion regarding their sanity.
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What is the status of the American pilots with regard to the Brazilian legal system? Are they under arrest? Have they been charged with a crime?
The only way I would set foot in Brazil if I were them is under a grant of immunity.
There was a very well written editorial in a recent Aviation Week and Space Technology pointing out the severe dangers to aviation safety when accident investigations are thrown into the legal arena.
The only way I would set foot in Brazil if I were them is under a grant of immunity.
There was a very well written editorial in a recent Aviation Week and Space Technology pointing out the severe dangers to aviation safety when accident investigations are thrown into the legal arena.
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Originally Posted by RobertS975
There was a very well written editorial in a recent Aviation Week and Space Technology pointing out the severe dangers to aviation safety when accident investigations are thrown into the legal arena.
This is not only a problem in aviation. See the talk "Negotiating Accidents" at http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/Biel...inB9Slides.pdf
for some examples from the rail industry.
PBL
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The Judge
It seems that the Judge from a small town in Mato Grosso decided to go on with the trial without the deposition of the US pilots. I saw in TV tonight the judge saying that he will go on with the trial withour listening to the pilots. The lawyers for the pilots saying that they want to make a deposition in the USA, but the judge will go on without them.
As I said before, I am not sure how things are in other countries but as a Brazilian I am a little embarassed. After all the official report from CENIPA is not out and all kinds of people (mostly who know nothing about aviation) have decided who is to blame for the disaster. Let me say a few: this federal judge, the federal police, the president of the investigative committee of the house, the same for the senate.
The only thing I think they have on the US pilots is that their transponder was not operating. FAA had said that this could be caused by their putting their feet at the foot rest below the dash. They flew without the transponder for almost one hour and this was not noticed by Cyndacta in Brasilia.
I hate to admit this but I am not sure that these two pilots will have a fair trial in Brazil, and I understand why they did not show up.
Some say that the final report from CENIPA is coming out soon. Let´s wait and see.
As I said before, I am not sure how things are in other countries but as a Brazilian I am a little embarassed. After all the official report from CENIPA is not out and all kinds of people (mostly who know nothing about aviation) have decided who is to blame for the disaster. Let me say a few: this federal judge, the federal police, the president of the investigative committee of the house, the same for the senate.
The only thing I think they have on the US pilots is that their transponder was not operating. FAA had said that this could be caused by their putting their feet at the foot rest below the dash. They flew without the transponder for almost one hour and this was not noticed by Cyndacta in Brasilia.
I hate to admit this but I am not sure that these two pilots will have a fair trial in Brazil, and I understand why they did not show up.
Some say that the final report from CENIPA is coming out soon. Let´s wait and see.
Last edited by marciovp; 28th Aug 2007 at 02:51. Reason: Adding news
This was probably covered here, but recent Honeywell refresher-if selecting a new code and delayed in doing so, it might go into standby.
My understanding is that they, the pilots, signed an agreement to appear at any hearings or trials. Could not the judge try to get an American court to enforce the agreement and, thus, bypass extradition which does not exist between US and Brazil.
GF
My understanding is that they, the pilots, signed an agreement to appear at any hearings or trials. Could not the judge try to get an American court to enforce the agreement and, thus, bypass extradition which does not exist between US and Brazil.
GF
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Legal issues
The US pilots are willing to make a deposition in the USA and I believe thay have reasons to be afraid to come personally to Brazil. I am not sure and I don´t want to conclude about their guilt in the disaster, but I am afraid that that they are being scapegoated and that there is a lot of prejudice against them. So they ought to be careful.
From what I saw in TV the judge is going to try them without listening to them. I just want to know where this will lead us.
CENIPA has said that this criminalization of the disaster has made it much difficult for them to investigate it, aiming at prevention. I feel the same way.
From what I saw in TV the judge is going to try them without listening to them. I just want to know where this will lead us.
CENIPA has said that this criminalization of the disaster has made it much difficult for them to investigate it, aiming at prevention. I feel the same way.
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Originally Posted by marciovp
CENIPA has said that this criminalization of the disaster has made it much difficult for them to investigate it, aiming at prevention
Brazil is an ICAO signatory. If Brazilian law is inconsistent with ICAO Annex 13 requirements, as flyingnewbie suggests it might be, then it follows that either the law should be changed or Brazil should withdraw from ICAO. That is what such international agreements mean.
PBL
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who is responsible for maintaining radar contact?
Radar Contact (radar identified) or the like is usually issued early on in the process of an IFR flight.
At some point the embraer was surely told it was in RADAR CONTACT/IDENTIFIED.
When it no long was in radar contact, isn't it the responsibility of ATC to advise them?
At some point the embraer was surely told it was in RADAR CONTACT/IDENTIFIED.
When it no long was in radar contact, isn't it the responsibility of ATC to advise them?
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From AIN
Brazilian Aviation Agency Losing More Leaders
The leadership of Brazil’s Agência Nacional de Aviação Civil (ANAC) is collapsing under the pressure of international criticism. ANAC director Jorge Brito Velozo, formerly of the Departamento de Aviação Civil, will resign today, and president Milton Zuanazzi is expected to resign by the end of the week, according to Adalberto Febeliano, executive vice president of the Associacão Brasileira de Aviacão Geral (Brazilian Association of General Aviation). The two resignations follow last Friday’s resignation by ANAC director Denise Abreu. The agency has been under intense scrutiny, Febeliano said, following the 2005 bankruptcy of Varig Airlines, last year’s Gol 737/ExcelAire Legacy 600 midair, the air traffic controller strike early this year and the TAM crash at Congonhas Airport in July. “Everyone was under criticism after those four large events,” Febeliano told AIN. “The public, especially the large media, wanted them to be guilty. They pointed their fingers at the agency the same way they pointed their fingers to the Legacy pilots last September. It is really more a matter of public pressure than of real mismanagement.”
Brazilian Aviation Agency Losing More Leaders
The leadership of Brazil’s Agência Nacional de Aviação Civil (ANAC) is collapsing under the pressure of international criticism. ANAC director Jorge Brito Velozo, formerly of the Departamento de Aviação Civil, will resign today, and president Milton Zuanazzi is expected to resign by the end of the week, according to Adalberto Febeliano, executive vice president of the Associacão Brasileira de Aviacão Geral (Brazilian Association of General Aviation). The two resignations follow last Friday’s resignation by ANAC director Denise Abreu. The agency has been under intense scrutiny, Febeliano said, following the 2005 bankruptcy of Varig Airlines, last year’s Gol 737/ExcelAire Legacy 600 midair, the air traffic controller strike early this year and the TAM crash at Congonhas Airport in July. “Everyone was under criticism after those four large events,” Febeliano told AIN. “The public, especially the large media, wanted them to be guilty. They pointed their fingers at the agency the same way they pointed their fingers to the Legacy pilots last September. It is really more a matter of public pressure than of real mismanagement.”
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"Just imagine 154 american citizens dead... Do you think that in a similar accident, a brazilian crew would just be allowed to go away immediatelly ? Of course not...
Now I would like to know why this same concern about the reputation of the Legacy's pilots is not being shown with the crew of the TAM 3054...
Could you explain that ?"
Could you explain why your accident rate is almost twice as high as the civilized world. Look in the mirror perhaps or at your posts or just at this link as one of many reasons.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/03/19/news/safe.php
Why don't you try listening and learning from those who have successfully lowered their accident rate to near zero. I know....you won't, because your pride is more important than aviation safety. You are not alone.
Now I would like to know why this same concern about the reputation of the Legacy's pilots is not being shown with the crew of the TAM 3054...
Could you explain that ?"
Could you explain why your accident rate is almost twice as high as the civilized world. Look in the mirror perhaps or at your posts or just at this link as one of many reasons.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/03/19/news/safe.php
Why don't you try listening and learning from those who have successfully lowered their accident rate to near zero. I know....you won't, because your pride is more important than aviation safety. You are not alone.