Mid-air collision over Brasil
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crossunder and others:
very few of us have flown that particular model of airplane with its unique avionics.
if there is nothing that tells a pilot if the transponder is not working properly, then something is wrong.
I do ask those who know this type of avionics to tells us:
Would the TCAS onboard the Legacy indicate a failure mode if the transponder were not "on"?
would that failure mode be visible to the pilots?
if it would, then there is some blame to be shared by the pilots...
if not, more blame for an avionics system that isn't "fail safe" (also a nod to the movie and book)
I don't want to see these pilots in jail. but I do want the truth, so we can avoid another MidAir like this or any other.
TCAS came about, partially, due to a midair over cerittos california, near los angeles...among others.
very few of us have flown that particular model of airplane with its unique avionics.
if there is nothing that tells a pilot if the transponder is not working properly, then something is wrong.
I do ask those who know this type of avionics to tells us:
Would the TCAS onboard the Legacy indicate a failure mode if the transponder were not "on"?
would that failure mode be visible to the pilots?
if it would, then there is some blame to be shared by the pilots...
if not, more blame for an avionics system that isn't "fail safe" (also a nod to the movie and book)
I don't want to see these pilots in jail. but I do want the truth, so we can avoid another MidAir like this or any other.
TCAS came about, partially, due to a midair over cerittos california, near los angeles...among others.
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There are some misstatements in the "AP and other sources" report.
The policeman, Renato Sayão, says that the Military Prosecutors must decide if the controllers should be charged, because they're in the Armed Forces.
The Military Prosecutors are subordinate to the Federal Prosecutor-General, and quite independent of the Defense Department.
In December the Military Prosecutor-General said "but in case the participation of military flight controllers in the accident is verified, they may be accused by the Federal Police, if it is shown that the crime is of a civilian nature." You can listen to her interview (in Portuguese, of course) here: http://www.bandnewsfm.com.br/audio/B...MARIAESTER.mp3
The reason Sayão is commenting is that the Brazil's leading news magazine, Veja, last weekend printed a supposed extract from the Legacy's black-box dialogs. One line is, literally retranslated:
"All right. We're descending. Declaring an emergency. Sit."
"Sit?" I'd bet what was originally said was "Sit tight". But there are other phrases where I can't guess what the original English was, and so it's impossible to guess the meaning of what was said.
The translation was produced by a certified public translator, which doesn't mean that it's any good.
As to the timetable on this, last week the police were granted an additional thirty days for their investigation. They'd asked for that extension on December 13. Today's papers say that Sayão will be asking for at least another sixty days after this. if this were an ocean liner's daily mileage pool, I'd advise putting your money on the high range.
Of the fifteen controllers, the police still haven't talked to the two who were on duty in Manaus.
The policeman, Renato Sayão, says that the Military Prosecutors must decide if the controllers should be charged, because they're in the Armed Forces.
Because the controllers are military personnel, the police can only submit their findings to the Defense Department, which would decide whether to prosecute, Carvalho said.
In December the Military Prosecutor-General said "but in case the participation of military flight controllers in the accident is verified, they may be accused by the Federal Police, if it is shown that the crime is of a civilian nature." You can listen to her interview (in Portuguese, of course) here: http://www.bandnewsfm.com.br/audio/B...MARIAESTER.mp3
I don't know where Sayão gets the 12 years from. The Military Code of Justice defines the "placing an aircraft in danger" crime differently than the common penal code; it would seem to apply only to craft "under military administration, guard or protection." There are other aspects I'm wary of commenting on because I'm not a lawyer and anything I say may contribute more heat than light.
The reason Sayão is commenting is that the Brazil's leading news magazine, Veja, last weekend printed a supposed extract from the Legacy's black-box dialogs. One line is, literally retranslated:
"All right. We're descending. Declaring an emergency. Sit."
"Sit?" I'd bet what was originally said was "Sit tight". But there are other phrases where I can't guess what the original English was, and so it's impossible to guess the meaning of what was said.
The translation was produced by a certified public translator, which doesn't mean that it's any good.
As to the timetable on this, last week the police were granted an additional thirty days for their investigation. They'd asked for that extension on December 13. Today's papers say that Sayão will be asking for at least another sixty days after this. if this were an ocean liner's daily mileage pool, I'd advise putting your money on the high range.
Of the fifteen controllers, the police still haven't talked to the two who were on duty in Manaus.
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The data busses out of the TCAS processor, digital altitude source, and the transponder report one of three conditions: Valid, Fail, or No Computed Data.
If the transponder is in standby mode, its output label is NCD. The TCAS processor then indicates "TCAS OFF," which is an advisory level, and not an alert or warning. Depending on the aircraft, it may not be all that obvious. There should also be a transponder indication of "TPR SBY," or similar. It assumes Standby was selected intentionally.
"TCAS FAIL" indicates a failure within the TCAS processor or transponder, or aircraft identification source.
GB
If the transponder is in standby mode, its output label is NCD. The TCAS processor then indicates "TCAS OFF," which is an advisory level, and not an alert or warning. Depending on the aircraft, it may not be all that obvious. There should also be a transponder indication of "TPR SBY," or similar. It assumes Standby was selected intentionally.
"TCAS FAIL" indicates a failure within the TCAS processor or transponder, or aircraft identification source.
GB
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Here's some pure speculation: Maybe neither pilot had flown the Legacy beyond radar range, and upon seeing "TCAS OFF" and "TPR SBY," they erroneously concluded this was normal for this airplane in non-radar environment.
GB
GB
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The Role of the Laptop - according to FOLHA and Eliane Cantanhede
The way that I'm reading a few news releases (Folha) and posts on other forums and blogs, the Legacy pilots' use of a laptop might have both:
.
a. Turned off the transponder (inadvertently with the laptop's opening lid) and thereafter
.
b. Obscured the transponder panel (and any advisories thereon) whilst open and in front of it during their repeated attempts to re-establish comms (19 attempts in 8 minutes I think it was).
.
The laptop I'd imagine might hold some charts, freqs, CxLists or suchlike? Can anybody familiar with the aircraft's center console panels (and pushbuttons down their sides), endorse or deny any such theory? The IFATCA paper has already pointed out that it's possible to finger-mash buttons and put the TxPDR to STBY inadvertently. I guess the lid of a laptop tool (BLT) might be able to do similar if it was being manipulated clumsily (juggled whilst also consulting unfolded paper charts for sector freqs).
.
a. Turned off the transponder (inadvertently with the laptop's opening lid) and thereafter
.
b. Obscured the transponder panel (and any advisories thereon) whilst open and in front of it during their repeated attempts to re-establish comms (19 attempts in 8 minutes I think it was).
.
The laptop I'd imagine might hold some charts, freqs, CxLists or suchlike? Can anybody familiar with the aircraft's center console panels (and pushbuttons down their sides), endorse or deny any such theory? The IFATCA paper has already pointed out that it's possible to finger-mash buttons and put the TxPDR to STBY inadvertently. I guess the lid of a laptop tool (BLT) might be able to do similar if it was being manipulated clumsily (juggled whilst also consulting unfolded paper charts for sector freqs).
45. ... On information and belief, the line key that puts the transponder into “standby” mode is located in close proximity to line keys that are commonly used by pilots in flight for other purposes. If the pilot’s finger slips slightly, the standby line key will be depressed also or instead, deactivating the transponder and the TCAS.
...
49. Honeywell did not provide adequate warnings regarding the danger posed by the foreseeable pilot uses above. On information and belief, the only notice regarding the loss of the TCAS provided by the Honeywell transponder on the ExcelAire Aircraft upon its transponder being switched to “standby” mode is a white light that reads “TCAS off.” There is no voice warning, and no amber or red light of the type pilots are trained to look for as a sign of a safety problem. An amber “TCAS fail” light is only activated when there is a technical malfunction of the transponder, but the effect is no different when the transponder is in “standby” mode—in either circumstance, the TCAS is not performing its critical lifesaving function.
...
49. Honeywell did not provide adequate warnings regarding the danger posed by the foreseeable pilot uses above. On information and belief, the only notice regarding the loss of the TCAS provided by the Honeywell transponder on the ExcelAire Aircraft upon its transponder being switched to “standby” mode is a white light that reads “TCAS off.” There is no voice warning, and no amber or red light of the type pilots are trained to look for as a sign of a safety problem. An amber “TCAS fail” light is only activated when there is a technical malfunction of the transponder, but the effect is no different when the transponder is in “standby” mode—in either circumstance, the TCAS is not performing its critical lifesaving function.
Eliane Cantanhede, a lead journalist from Folha newspaper got access to 290 pages of transcripts of the cockpit and ATC conversations. According to Eliane the transcripts "clearly show that the difficulty in communication between the Legacy pilots and the controller prevented them, for three times, from clarifying if they were supposed to proceed at FL370".
In addition, according to Eliane, the investigators are working with the possibility that either Joseph Lepore or Jan Paladino had a laptop opened in front of the transponder display panel.
Folha is releasing the full article only on news-stands, the internet has only a summary. http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/c...5u131896.shtml.
Note: Picapau (a journalist himself) has noted that Eliane is a highly regarded, well-connected and informed journalist working out of Brasília city.
On FAB's site ( http://www.fab.mil.br/imprensa/enotimp/enotimp_capa.htm) there is more from Eliane's text than in Folha's non-premium version.
Brazzil mag has commented on some parts of this: http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/7911/54/
In addition, according to Eliane, the investigators are working with the possibility that either Joseph Lepore or Jan Paladino had a laptop opened in front of the transponder display panel.
Folha is releasing the full article only on news-stands, the internet has only a summary. http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/c...5u131896.shtml.
Note: Picapau (a journalist himself) has noted that Eliane is a highly regarded, well-connected and informed journalist working out of Brasília city.
On FAB's site ( http://www.fab.mil.br/imprensa/enotimp/enotimp_capa.htm) there is more from Eliane's text than in Folha's non-premium version.
Brazzil mag has commented on some parts of this: http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/7911/54/
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But since when does talking about a DVD require to actually view the DVD at the same time?
It would be extremely bad, if indeed the investigators would base their investigation on that notebook, as this journalist suggests in her article.
The main question is still burning, to which we still haven't seen the tiniest attempt of an answer by investigators, officials or press people so far (this journalist actually raises the same question in her article, again without an answer):
Why were the two planes at the same altitude?
If there is any attempt to answer this question, then it can be found in this article: the controller was convinced, the Legacy was on FL360 and never realised, that the label on his screen was a "fiction" and not the true transponder return! That's why he never concluded, it would be prudent to turn the GOL around the Legacy ...
But if that report holds water, then what does this tell about the system, that produces "fictious" labels and obviously doesn't train the operators accordingly, and what does this tell about that system's operators, who don't know their displays?
It is quite interesting to notice, how the military now tries to change their story (e.g. introducing that notebook, dropping a lot of earlier accusations that already got disproven, introducing the same accusations again with different reasoning and different unproven "facts", ...) while still trying to turn attention away from ATC and the ATC system and attempting to solely blame the Legacy pilots. Isn't it also highly revealing, that especially the website of the Military quotes most of her article?
The blame game trying to mislead the Brasilian public goes into another round, but it doesn't get any more credible. I believe, Brasilian public is more clever than what those "authorities" believe.
Pity, the article appears to contain quite some good leads, that due to the obvious bias in the article were not followed up, however. It might be interesting, actually necessary, to read the article in its entirety to really form an opinion about how far that journalist got indeed and whether the bias, that appears in those parts published on the Internet so far, gets confirmed or disproven. I would be grateful to receive a link to a full copy of that article on the Internet ...
Servus, Simon
There are said to be 300 pages of transcripts, covering Cindacta, Sao Jose dos Campos, Manaus, the Legacy and, presumably, the Gol 737.
It would be naive to think that anyone could condense that into a single newspaper article without appearing to show bias, distorting the context or strewing red herrings about. Frankly, I don't see how the reporter could have avoided it.
All the article does is heighten the drama with a few excerpts of real language in Cindacta and in the Legacy cockpit, even if they lose (or gain)something in the translation.
As for FAB putting the article in their press clippings page, like many other clipping services they put in everything that relates to their area, good or bad; hardly "highly revealing".
It would be naive to think that anyone could condense that into a single newspaper article without appearing to show bias, distorting the context or strewing red herrings about. Frankly, I don't see how the reporter could have avoided it.
All the article does is heighten the drama with a few excerpts of real language in Cindacta and in the Legacy cockpit, even if they lose (or gain)something in the translation.
As for FAB putting the article in their press clippings page, like many other clipping services they put in everything that relates to their area, good or bad; hardly "highly revealing".
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The laptop story is just a smoke screen . Even if partially correct, this is not interesting for us.
The real reasons behind this collision are emerging now, and it looks like combination of 3 factors : (very) poor HMI of a transponder, even poorer ATC sofware system on the ground and a well know area on non VHF and radar coverage in between.
The rest are details .
Interestingly enough , Thales ( the French radar manufacturer ) has just announced the modernisation of Brazil radar system , with the Brazilian Air Force ordering 26 new radars ( 17 S and 9 L bands ) for 80 Millions USD.
That should probably take care of one of the above problems.
The real reasons behind this collision are emerging now, and it looks like combination of 3 factors : (very) poor HMI of a transponder, even poorer ATC sofware system on the ground and a well know area on non VHF and radar coverage in between.
The rest are details .
Interestingly enough , Thales ( the French radar manufacturer ) has just announced the modernisation of Brazil radar system , with the Brazilian Air Force ordering 26 new radars ( 17 S and 9 L bands ) for 80 Millions USD.
That should probably take care of one of the above problems.
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Black Box in Brazil Crash
Captain
written by George Rock, 2007-02-19 21:14:16
There are many misunderstanding and TECHNICAL bad translations in Eliane Cantanhêde's newspaper article published on Sunday, FEV 18, 2007, Folha de São Paulo newspaper.
For example:
She said the pilots had trouble with the aircraft radio equipment because of transcripted phrase:
In portuguese, as published in newspaper:
"Céu a 2.500. Eu não sei o que TX 35 significa... TN 25. Eu preciso aprender essa porra internacional. *****."
In english:
Ceiling 2500. I don't know TX 35 ... TN 25 meanings. I need to learn that international f**king. ****."
The pilots were talking about Terminal Aerodrome Forecast - TAF. There was no relation to aircraft Radio Equipment. TX means Forecast Maximum Temperature and TN means Forecast Minimum Temperature.
Other supposed phrase said by the pilot was about aircraft Weight and Balance calculation for landing after collision.
In portuguese, as published in newspaper:
Hot 2 - 1.600. Mil menos, uh... 8.800. Sim, devemos estar pousando em torno de 7.200.
In english:
Hot 2 - 1600. Minus 1000, uh... 8800. Yes, we should be landing around 7200.
***Hot 2 - Nickname for second pilot in that dialogue
Both pilots were very upset about the collision and they were calculating MLW = Maximum Landing Weight, Runway length for that Weight, Fuel Consumption, Heading, etc..
Another bad interpreted phrase by journalist Eliane Cantanhêde as an irrefutable proof that both Legacy's pilots had difficulties how to operate the aircraft:
In portuguese, as published in newspaper:
- Não sei como funciona o Satfone.
- Se você soubesse, seria maravilhoso.
In english:
- I don't know how Satphone works.
- If you knew, it would be wonderful.
They were talking about Satellite Phone.
Other insidious translated phrase that irritated Brazilian people:
Journalist Eliane Cantanhêde said insidiously in her newspaper article that pilots called injuriously Brazilian Air Traffic Controllers as "fudidos" ( pronounce 'foo-did-oo' ).
A bad translation for "f**k" word , an english interjection that express extreme irritation and disgust. In Brazilian aviation jargon, "big f**ck" is an idiomatic expression that many pilots say it in reference to situation when an Air Traffic Controller abandon the aircraft without radio communications for a long period of time.
We always say:
Those "Big F**ck"" abandoned us".
"Big F**ck" means in portuguese "FODÃO", so we say:
Those "FODÃO" abandoned us.
"Fodão" ( pronounce like that 'Fó-dun' ) this word means a person who has behavior to think He or She is "the best" Air Traffic Controler on Earth, He or She is a "Know-it-all", He or She is "Powerful", but He or She, in fact, has made many mistakes.
So the correct translation to portuguese for "f**k" in situation like that is "FODÃO", not "FUDIDOS".
"fudidos" is a very strong offensive word for Brazilian people. It means as a put-down. It express contempt feelings.
All Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder transcripted phrases published by Eliane Cantanhêde were picked up from transcriptions without the correct sequence for flight phases. Not even the correct phrases timetable was published in GMT time ( = Greenwich Mean Time ) which is suitable for aviation time recording.
The article did citation to Washington Time like that:
In portuguese, as published in newspaper:
1 Joe não pode saber
18:37:12
(horário de Washington )
In english:
1 Joe cann't know ( ...they were talking about Center of Gravity - CG of the aircraft. The plane had not took off yet )
18:37:12
(Washington Time )
The official Take off time was 14:51 Local Time = 17:51 GMT Time = 12:51 in Washington Time.
But that Time ( 18:37:12 ) in Washington, it should be 20:37:12 in Brasilia ( capital City ) and it should be 23:37:12 in Greenwich ( London ), on September 29, 2006.
The official collision time was 16:56:54 Local Time = 19:56:54 GMT or = 14:56:54 in Washington, as published in Preliminary Investigation Report.
What did 18:37:12 Flight Phase Time refer to?
That newspaper article does NOT deserve any TECHNICAL credibility.
George Rock
Airline Transport Pilot
Rio de Janeiro
Copacabana
Brazil
written by George Rock, 2007-02-19 21:14:16
There are many misunderstanding and TECHNICAL bad translations in Eliane Cantanhêde's newspaper article published on Sunday, FEV 18, 2007, Folha de São Paulo newspaper.
For example:
She said the pilots had trouble with the aircraft radio equipment because of transcripted phrase:
In portuguese, as published in newspaper:
"Céu a 2.500. Eu não sei o que TX 35 significa... TN 25. Eu preciso aprender essa porra internacional. *****."
In english:
Ceiling 2500. I don't know TX 35 ... TN 25 meanings. I need to learn that international f**king. ****."
The pilots were talking about Terminal Aerodrome Forecast - TAF. There was no relation to aircraft Radio Equipment. TX means Forecast Maximum Temperature and TN means Forecast Minimum Temperature.
Other supposed phrase said by the pilot was about aircraft Weight and Balance calculation for landing after collision.
In portuguese, as published in newspaper:
Hot 2 - 1.600. Mil menos, uh... 8.800. Sim, devemos estar pousando em torno de 7.200.
In english:
Hot 2 - 1600. Minus 1000, uh... 8800. Yes, we should be landing around 7200.
***Hot 2 - Nickname for second pilot in that dialogue
Both pilots were very upset about the collision and they were calculating MLW = Maximum Landing Weight, Runway length for that Weight, Fuel Consumption, Heading, etc..
Another bad interpreted phrase by journalist Eliane Cantanhêde as an irrefutable proof that both Legacy's pilots had difficulties how to operate the aircraft:
In portuguese, as published in newspaper:
- Não sei como funciona o Satfone.
- Se você soubesse, seria maravilhoso.
In english:
- I don't know how Satphone works.
- If you knew, it would be wonderful.
They were talking about Satellite Phone.
Other insidious translated phrase that irritated Brazilian people:
Journalist Eliane Cantanhêde said insidiously in her newspaper article that pilots called injuriously Brazilian Air Traffic Controllers as "fudidos" ( pronounce 'foo-did-oo' ).
A bad translation for "f**k" word , an english interjection that express extreme irritation and disgust. In Brazilian aviation jargon, "big f**ck" is an idiomatic expression that many pilots say it in reference to situation when an Air Traffic Controller abandon the aircraft without radio communications for a long period of time.
We always say:
Those "Big F**ck"" abandoned us".
"Big F**ck" means in portuguese "FODÃO", so we say:
Those "FODÃO" abandoned us.
"Fodão" ( pronounce like that 'Fó-dun' ) this word means a person who has behavior to think He or She is "the best" Air Traffic Controler on Earth, He or She is a "Know-it-all", He or She is "Powerful", but He or She, in fact, has made many mistakes.
So the correct translation to portuguese for "f**k" in situation like that is "FODÃO", not "FUDIDOS".
"fudidos" is a very strong offensive word for Brazilian people. It means as a put-down. It express contempt feelings.
All Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder transcripted phrases published by Eliane Cantanhêde were picked up from transcriptions without the correct sequence for flight phases. Not even the correct phrases timetable was published in GMT time ( = Greenwich Mean Time ) which is suitable for aviation time recording.
The article did citation to Washington Time like that:
In portuguese, as published in newspaper:
1 Joe não pode saber
18:37:12
(horário de Washington )
In english:
1 Joe cann't know ( ...they were talking about Center of Gravity - CG of the aircraft. The plane had not took off yet )
18:37:12
(Washington Time )
The official Take off time was 14:51 Local Time = 17:51 GMT Time = 12:51 in Washington Time.
But that Time ( 18:37:12 ) in Washington, it should be 20:37:12 in Brasilia ( capital City ) and it should be 23:37:12 in Greenwich ( London ), on September 29, 2006.
The official collision time was 16:56:54 Local Time = 19:56:54 GMT or = 14:56:54 in Washington, as published in Preliminary Investigation Report.
What did 18:37:12 Flight Phase Time refer to?
That newspaper article does NOT deserve any TECHNICAL credibility.
George Rock
Airline Transport Pilot
Rio de Janeiro
Copacabana
Brazil
In english:
- I don't know how Satphone works.
- If you knew, it would be wonderful.
They were talking about Satellite Phone.
- I don't know how Satphone works.
- If you knew, it would be wonderful.
They were talking about Satellite Phone.
Was that before or after the collision ?
alex
@George Rock: Thanks for your insight
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Black Box in Brazil Crash
Alex,
It was AFTER collision.
When both pilots were trying to keep radio contact with Manaus Area Control Center - ACC Amazonia without success and they finally got radio contact with Polar 71 crew.
Polar 71 aircraft was flying nearby and its crew passed Lagacy's distress on Manaus ACC.
Lagacy's crew called Polar 71 at 17:01:22 Local Time = 20:01:22 GMT.
At 17:13:16 Local Time = 20:13:16 GMT after many unsuccessful calls of both aircrafts to Amazonia Center ( Manaus ) and to Brasilia Center, Polar 71's crew finally got to pass Legacy distress on Manaus ACC.
It was AFTER collision.
When both pilots were trying to keep radio contact with Manaus Area Control Center - ACC Amazonia without success and they finally got radio contact with Polar 71 crew.
Polar 71 aircraft was flying nearby and its crew passed Lagacy's distress on Manaus ACC.
Lagacy's crew called Polar 71 at 17:01:22 Local Time = 20:01:22 GMT.
At 17:13:16 Local Time = 20:13:16 GMT after many unsuccessful calls of both aircrafts to Amazonia Center ( Manaus ) and to Brasilia Center, Polar 71's crew finally got to pass Legacy distress on Manaus ACC.
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Bad ATC in Brazil
For those of you who are going to be flying to Brazil, be careful when in Brazilian airspace. Ever since the accident last year things are chaotic at best and it gets worse near national holidays. What the controllers are doing to us is a joke. Flights going to Europe are put on hold 30 minutes after departure, people are holding till declaring low fuel, 10 minute separation with for no reasons plus the usual loss of communication, radar coverage, ATC forgetting you are there etc........ Watch out!!!
Folks
did try to read the whole thread - honest !
I don't seem to find much information about the fate of the GOL 737. From the few pictures I have seen it seems fairly intact with no obvious reason for it's crash. I understand the CVR/FDR were eventually recovered. Anything official about them ? Any other info ?
Regards
alex
did try to read the whole thread - honest !
I don't seem to find much information about the fate of the GOL 737. From the few pictures I have seen it seems fairly intact with no obvious reason for it's crash. I understand the CVR/FDR were eventually recovered. Anything official about them ? Any other info ?
Regards
alex
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Folks, did try to read the whole thread - honest !
From the few pictures I have seen it seems fairly intact with no obvious reason for it's crash.
What's so difficult to understand about that?
As for the orange boxes, I don't know.
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atakacs: Post #359 has a link to an animation that likely will be very close to the final report:
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/0,,IIF661-5598,00.html
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/0,,IIF661-5598,00.html
atakacs: Post #359 has a link to an animation that likely will be very close to the final report:
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/0,,IIF661-5598,00.html
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/0,,IIF661-5598,00.html
Unless the graphics are supported by analysis and facts they are worthless imaginations to me.