Mid-air collision over Brasil
Well I didn't get to see the animation. IF it depicts what happened then I am perfectly clear about it... just wondering what was the basis for this scenario.
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Very interesting serie of articles about the collision in the latest March issue of The Controller http://www.the-controller.net depicting both the ATC ground systems and the transponder HMI features .
The inside view on the actual ATC situation in Brasil is also quite interesting.
The inside view on the actual ATC situation in Brasil is also quite interesting.
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Very interesting serie of articles about the collision in the latest March issue of The Controller http://www.the-controller.net depicting both the ATC ground systems and the transponder HMI features .
The inside view on the actual ATC situation in Brasil is also quite interesting.
The inside view on the actual ATC situation in Brasil is also quite interesting.
The link to the archived 1981 piece worked, but no luck with the rest. Is it possible to read the entire series on line?
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under wing stress
dear iomapaseo
the upper wing surface have compression stresses.
but, the under wing suffers very high tensile stress(traction).
the things are so severe ,that a minimal crack or scratch in de under wing,starts a catastrophic rupture.Try at home to separate a celophane
sheet. you have a certain difficult to do it.
but insert a little cut and........you will feel the greatest engineering problem
which is:fine grooving efect;could be caused by fadigue or a fine cut or scratch..... and them BY BY WING
condolences to the victims
best regards
preta
the upper wing surface have compression stresses.
but, the under wing suffers very high tensile stress(traction).
the things are so severe ,that a minimal crack or scratch in de under wing,starts a catastrophic rupture.Try at home to separate a celophane
sheet. you have a certain difficult to do it.
but insert a little cut and........you will feel the greatest engineering problem
which is:fine grooving efect;could be caused by fadigue or a fine cut or scratch..... and them BY BY WING
condolences to the victims
best regards
preta
Preta
Sorry, I don't buy into it. If it were that simple, any impact from tyre failures or engine debris would be snapping wings off right and left.
Over simplifications don't fail wings. I'll only be satisfied when all the layers of swiss cheese are revealed. So far they are outstandingly quiet about this. But I guess we'll just revisit all this after another inflight breakup.
Sorry, I don't buy into it. If it were that simple, any impact from tyre failures or engine debris would be snapping wings off right and left.
Over simplifications don't fail wings. I'll only be satisfied when all the layers of swiss cheese are revealed. So far they are outstandingly quiet about this. But I guess we'll just revisit all this after another inflight breakup.
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preta's is not a good analogy.
Without actually seeing the impact area, I'd hazard an educated guess that the 738 lower wing skin was nearly completely sliced into inboard and outboard halves by the legacy winglet (with a closure speed of 1500 ft/sec).
This means the upper skin, designed to carry chiefly compression loads (or minor tensile load if negative G), is now carrying a bending load from the lift of the outer wing. Being ralitively thin, it won't endure long. Ergo the lift load bends the outer section upwards, hinging on the upper skin in line with the cut in the lower skin.
Although I haven't seen the debris field pattern I wouldn't be at all surprised if the outboard wing didn't separate completely in the highspeed descent.
Without actually seeing the impact area, I'd hazard an educated guess that the 738 lower wing skin was nearly completely sliced into inboard and outboard halves by the legacy winglet (with a closure speed of 1500 ft/sec).
This means the upper skin, designed to carry chiefly compression loads (or minor tensile load if negative G), is now carrying a bending load from the lift of the outer wing. Being ralitively thin, it won't endure long. Ergo the lift load bends the outer section upwards, hinging on the upper skin in line with the cut in the lower skin.
Although I haven't seen the debris field pattern I wouldn't be at all surprised if the outboard wing didn't separate completely in the highspeed descent.
Lomapaseo, it may be an oversimplification but the hypothesis of the Legacy's port winglet slicing through the under skin of the Boeing's port wing, and the Boeing's wing failing as a result, is as close as anyone's got. Somewhere along the line, months back, there was a confused report in a local newspaper that either the Legacy had hit the Boeing's stabilizer or that the Boeing's wing had; I don't remember where I saw it but I expect when the accident report is finally published the debris pattern will show, as Barit suggests, the Boeing's port wing well behind the main wreckage site.
I doubt the Legacy winglet stayed attached more than a foot or so; so, likely would not slice the entire span of lower wing skin. If it got that far it would likely have remained attached.
We are talking a 1000 kt impact which can do damage in a number of ways including:
We are talking a 1000 kt impact which can do damage in a number of ways including:
- sever hydraulic and electric lines
- airloads pulling off wingskin and making controllability issues
- fuel tank rupture and ignition of contents at the moment of collision.
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lomapaseo...
But you have seen a photo of the missing left winglet, and associated damage to the left vertical stabilizer of the Embraer jet. . . no? If you have seen the post crash photo of this jet, what other conceivable collision scenario could produce such "facts?"
. . .Unless the graphics are supported by analysis and facts they are worthless imaginations to me.
I doubt the Legacy winglet stayed attached more than a foot or so; so, likely would not slice the entire span of lower wing skin. If it got that far it would likely have remained attached.
We are talking a 1000 kt impact which can do damage in a number of ways including:
sever hydraulic and electric lines
airloads pulling off wingskin and making controllability issues
fuel tank rupture and ignition of contents at the moment of collision.
We are talking a 1000 kt impact which can do damage in a number of ways including:
sever hydraulic and electric lines
airloads pulling off wingskin and making controllability issues
fuel tank rupture and ignition of contents at the moment of collision.
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Greybeard asks:
I found this drawing of a typical wing box (see fig. 5). Note that there is little that you could call a "spar" in this mid-span section of the wing - the major spar sections are around cutouts like the MLG wells. Further out in the wing, the upper and lower wing skins are carrying all the load.
As I mentioned several months ago, this very efficient design was introduced by Jack Northrop in his "Alpha" (1930), and has become industry standard since the DC-3.
See also here:
You are saying the skin carries enough wing load that the spars can't hold the wing on if the lower skin fails? I doubt that. Else, why have spars?
As I mentioned several months ago, this very efficient design was introduced by Jack Northrop in his "Alpha" (1930), and has become industry standard since the DC-3.
See also here:
Last edited by barit1; 25th Mar 2007 at 12:59.
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It's like insulation foam coming unglued from the space shuttle tank; . . . at first everybody said that a chunk of foam couldn't open the leading edge of the wing; but a chunk of foam impacting at 160+mph could; and it did.
ATC strike in Brazil
A black Friday for air commuters, crews and airlines in Brazil. Patience of the mixed airforce/civil ATC staff seems to have ended and Brasilia, Manaus, Rio and Salvador shut down for takeoffs early this evening. A few hours later Infraero, the airports authority, announced that all airports in Brazil were closed.
This may turn out to be just a skirmish. If you understand Portuguese and are interested, check out the Brazilian ATC site with the latest manifesto:
http://www.abcta.org.br/default.php?...4060bbd7280928
This may turn out to be just a skirmish. If you understand Portuguese and are interested, check out the Brazilian ATC site with the latest manifesto:
http://www.abcta.org.br/default.php?...4060bbd7280928
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It is now being reported that 18 controllers from Brasilia have been arrested, and warrants for all other striking controllers have been issued. A couple of flights have left Congonhas for Rio, but all movement in and around Brasilia is suspended.
Have a great weekend
Have a great weekend
Agreement between the government and ATC leaders was reached around midnight. Text published in Folha de Sao Paulo at
http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/c...5u133574.shtml
Basically:
1) No punishment for yesterday's strike and a "review" (assume this means reversal) of disciplinary measures such as transfers, suspensions etc taken against perceived leaders over last six months.
2) Negotiations as from 3 April with civil and military ATC staff with a view to gradual transfer of ATC to civilian control.
3) Negotiations as from 3 April with civil and military ATC staff over pay and conditions.
All in all, quite a breakthrough and ATC people have achieved their goal. The government's officially agreeing to negotiate transfer to civil control is an unfortunate humiliation for the airforce who, with some foresight, could have turned the problem created back in October into an opportunity but chose, instead, an attempt to maintain the status quo ante.
http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/c...5u133574.shtml
Basically:
1) No punishment for yesterday's strike and a "review" (assume this means reversal) of disciplinary measures such as transfers, suspensions etc taken against perceived leaders over last six months.
2) Negotiations as from 3 April with civil and military ATC staff with a view to gradual transfer of ATC to civilian control.
3) Negotiations as from 3 April with civil and military ATC staff over pay and conditions.
All in all, quite a breakthrough and ATC people have achieved their goal. The government's officially agreeing to negotiate transfer to civil control is an unfortunate humiliation for the airforce who, with some foresight, could have turned the problem created back in October into an opportunity but chose, instead, an attempt to maintain the status quo ante.
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Lawsuits over Brazil's worst air crash name LI pilots
It was only a matter of time:
more at:
http://www.silive.com/newsflash/metr...rylist=simetro
Two Long Island pilots were named in a series of lawsuits filed Friday in federal court seeking millions of dollars in damages for alleged negligence stemming from an aircraft collision that led to Brazil's worst air disaster.
.....
The lawsuits name the Embraer's owner, Ronkonkoma, N.Y.-based ExcelAire, and the two pilots who survived, Joseph Lepore and Jan Paladino — both Long Island residents. The jet's pilots failed to maintain proper altitude, didn't maintain proper communication with Brazilian air traffic controllers and didn't operate the aircraft properly, the lawsuit contends.
....
Brazilian investigators have also said that air traffic controllers bear some responsibility for the crash.
The lawsuits filed in Miami also level negligence and products liability claims against the maker of the transponder, Honeywell International Inc. Officials at that corporation declined comment because they had not yet seen the lawsuits.
"Honeywell, however is unaware of any evidence that its equipment was defective or had malfunctioned in any way. The company will vigorously defend itself in this matter," according to a statement e-mailed by a spokesman.
In addition, the lawsuits contend that a factor in the crash were defects in an air traffic control system known as the System for the Vigilance of the Amazon, or SIVAM. The lawsuits name as defendants Bethesda, Md.-based Lockheed Martin Corp. and two other companies that developed and maintained that system.
.....
The lawsuits name the Embraer's owner, Ronkonkoma, N.Y.-based ExcelAire, and the two pilots who survived, Joseph Lepore and Jan Paladino — both Long Island residents. The jet's pilots failed to maintain proper altitude, didn't maintain proper communication with Brazilian air traffic controllers and didn't operate the aircraft properly, the lawsuit contends.
....
Brazilian investigators have also said that air traffic controllers bear some responsibility for the crash.
The lawsuits filed in Miami also level negligence and products liability claims against the maker of the transponder, Honeywell International Inc. Officials at that corporation declined comment because they had not yet seen the lawsuits.
"Honeywell, however is unaware of any evidence that its equipment was defective or had malfunctioned in any way. The company will vigorously defend itself in this matter," according to a statement e-mailed by a spokesman.
In addition, the lawsuits contend that a factor in the crash were defects in an air traffic control system known as the System for the Vigilance of the Amazon, or SIVAM. The lawsuits name as defendants Bethesda, Md.-based Lockheed Martin Corp. and two other companies that developed and maintained that system.
more at:
http://www.silive.com/newsflash/metr...rylist=simetro
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No URL but from another board:
An unprecedented rebellion by Brazil's air traffic controllers, most of them military, paralyzed this Friday, March 30, all 49 commercial airports in the country. According to Infraero, Brazil's airport authority, no plane was being allowed to take off. The air control towers were only letting incoming air traffic.
The rebellious flight controllers told the Cindacta-1 (Brazilian capital Brasília central control tower) brass that their strike would continue and all incoming and outgoing traffic would stop entirely until the authorities negotiated with them. The work stoppage started at 6:44 pm in Brasília.
Cindacta-1 is an important control center, which monitors flights for the most important air hubs in the country in the states of São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Minas Gerais, Goiás, Espírito Santo, among others. The controllers' action left thousands of passengers stranded in airports.
With President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva out of the country for a meeting with Bush this weekend in Camp David, acting president José Alencar, rushed back from Belo Horizonte to Brasília. He only was able to fly after getting special clearance from the Air Force leadership.
Still on the air on his way to Washington, Lula intervened in the crisis to avoid that some air controllers be taken to jail as was the Air Force top command's wish.
The Military Public Prosecutor's Office had already issued arrest orders against 18 flight controllers, who were charged with mutiny. The Justice Military prosecutor, Ione de Souza Cruz, was on her way to make the arrests when came word that Lula had decided that they should negotiate with the insubordinate controllers.
It was already Saturday, when the Brazilian government announced that it had reached an agreement with the controllers. Apparently they won all their main demands including no punishment for the rebels and a demilitarization - at least partial - of the sector. The government also promised to raise their salaries.
Brazilian Planning Minister, Paulo Bernardo, arrived at the Cindacta-1's headquarters to negotiate with the controllers and try to get them back to work at about 11 pm. He was accompanied by brigadier Ramon Cardoso, the Air Force's Air Space Control Department director.
Besides the Air Force Commander, Juniti Saito, other ministers got involved in the negotiations including Social Communication's Minister, Franklin Martins; Institutional Security Minister, Jorge Armando Félix and the presidency's Chief of Staff, Gilberto Carvalho.
Among the controllers' demands were better working conditions, higher wages and the category's demilitarization. About 80% of the country's air controllers are military men today.
The rebellion started Friday morning, as a response to the transfer of sergeant Edleuzo Souza Cavalcanti, an air-controller leader, from Brasília to Santa Maria in the southern state of Rio Grande do Sul. To protest this relocation over 100 of his colleagues at Cindacta -1, Brasília's air control center, went into a hunger strike. In Mato Grosso state a group of air controllers soon joined the movement staging a work to rule campaign.
Flying in Brazil has been problematic since September 29 when a Boeing 737 collided with a Legacy executive jet killing all 154 passengers and crew aboard the Boeing over the Amazon rainforest. Since then Brazil has faced several chaotic situations in the airports during times of increased air traffic like All Souls Day holiday, Christmas and Carnaval.
Defense Minister, Waldir Pires, said Friday afternoon that a democratic state could not become hostage of anybody. "There is no negotiation with the controllers," he stated at the time, while saying that he recognized that their demands were "legitimate." It just took a few hours before his no-negotiation warning was trampled by the facts.
An unprecedented rebellion by Brazil's air traffic controllers, most of them military, paralyzed this Friday, March 30, all 49 commercial airports in the country. According to Infraero, Brazil's airport authority, no plane was being allowed to take off. The air control towers were only letting incoming air traffic.
The rebellious flight controllers told the Cindacta-1 (Brazilian capital Brasília central control tower) brass that their strike would continue and all incoming and outgoing traffic would stop entirely until the authorities negotiated with them. The work stoppage started at 6:44 pm in Brasília.
Cindacta-1 is an important control center, which monitors flights for the most important air hubs in the country in the states of São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Minas Gerais, Goiás, Espírito Santo, among others. The controllers' action left thousands of passengers stranded in airports.
With President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva out of the country for a meeting with Bush this weekend in Camp David, acting president José Alencar, rushed back from Belo Horizonte to Brasília. He only was able to fly after getting special clearance from the Air Force leadership.
Still on the air on his way to Washington, Lula intervened in the crisis to avoid that some air controllers be taken to jail as was the Air Force top command's wish.
The Military Public Prosecutor's Office had already issued arrest orders against 18 flight controllers, who were charged with mutiny. The Justice Military prosecutor, Ione de Souza Cruz, was on her way to make the arrests when came word that Lula had decided that they should negotiate with the insubordinate controllers.
It was already Saturday, when the Brazilian government announced that it had reached an agreement with the controllers. Apparently they won all their main demands including no punishment for the rebels and a demilitarization - at least partial - of the sector. The government also promised to raise their salaries.
Brazilian Planning Minister, Paulo Bernardo, arrived at the Cindacta-1's headquarters to negotiate with the controllers and try to get them back to work at about 11 pm. He was accompanied by brigadier Ramon Cardoso, the Air Force's Air Space Control Department director.
Besides the Air Force Commander, Juniti Saito, other ministers got involved in the negotiations including Social Communication's Minister, Franklin Martins; Institutional Security Minister, Jorge Armando Félix and the presidency's Chief of Staff, Gilberto Carvalho.
Among the controllers' demands were better working conditions, higher wages and the category's demilitarization. About 80% of the country's air controllers are military men today.
The rebellion started Friday morning, as a response to the transfer of sergeant Edleuzo Souza Cavalcanti, an air-controller leader, from Brasília to Santa Maria in the southern state of Rio Grande do Sul. To protest this relocation over 100 of his colleagues at Cindacta -1, Brasília's air control center, went into a hunger strike. In Mato Grosso state a group of air controllers soon joined the movement staging a work to rule campaign.
Flying in Brazil has been problematic since September 29 when a Boeing 737 collided with a Legacy executive jet killing all 154 passengers and crew aboard the Boeing over the Amazon rainforest. Since then Brazil has faced several chaotic situations in the airports during times of increased air traffic like All Souls Day holiday, Christmas and Carnaval.
Defense Minister, Waldir Pires, said Friday afternoon that a democratic state could not become hostage of anybody. "There is no negotiation with the controllers," he stated at the time, while saying that he recognized that their demands were "legitimate." It just took a few hours before his no-negotiation warning was trampled by the facts.
Did someone say "gradual transfer" to civilian control?
The Brazilian airforce high command have released a statement to the effect that the transfer should take place post-haste. And which makes plain their irritation at having been overruled by the president when in the process of arresting mutinous military ATCers.
On Tuesday 4 April Lula is expected to sign a bill transferring 1,500 of the 2,400 military controllers to a new body, the "Controle da Circulação Aérea Geral" which will still be under Defense department control but a step removed from the airforce. How this is actually going to function remains to be seen. There will probably be some confusion in the early stages but it shouldn't be seen as just a cover for continued military control, rather as a transitional stage while the government decides what the next step should be, e.g. an Infraero (airports authority, 100% government) subsidiary; another parastatal alongside Infraero; a PPP (unlikely), etc.
The Brazilian airforce high command have released a statement to the effect that the transfer should take place post-haste. And which makes plain their irritation at having been overruled by the president when in the process of arresting mutinous military ATCers.
On Tuesday 4 April Lula is expected to sign a bill transferring 1,500 of the 2,400 military controllers to a new body, the "Controle da Circulação Aérea Geral" which will still be under Defense department control but a step removed from the airforce. How this is actually going to function remains to be seen. There will probably be some confusion in the early stages but it shouldn't be seen as just a cover for continued military control, rather as a transitional stage while the government decides what the next step should be, e.g. an Infraero (airports authority, 100% government) subsidiary; another parastatal alongside Infraero; a PPP (unlikely), etc.