Mid-air collision over Brasil
foxtrot xray
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CAOS
There is a popular TV program in the US where the moderator refers to the fact that "this is a no-spin zone" meaning that guests are not allowed to "spin" the facts so that they appear to be something other than what they really are. Methinks that we have some of this going on in this thread including your last post where you imply that the fact that the Legacy pilots did not request a different altitude was one of the factors in a series of factors that caused the accident.
You apparently are neither an ATC person nor a pilot nor have you read my previous posts or those of others.
The Legacy was cleared by ATC to maintain FL 370 prior to crossing and beyond BRS and this was operative until such time as changed by ATC or the provisions of lost comm rules took effect (which appears to be a time well after the collision by application the rules).
The Legacy was under no obligation to request a lower altitude(or different altitude complying with the normal hemispheric plan) passing BRS nor should ATC have expected it to request a change.
The Legacy was maintaining its last cleared altitude and was required to do so
until it was changed by ATC(which by your own quotation it never did).
The listing of the fact that the Legacy did not request an altitude change as factor in a series of events causal to the accident is spinning.
This is a no spin zone.
You apparently are neither an ATC person nor a pilot nor have you read my previous posts or those of others.
The Legacy was cleared by ATC to maintain FL 370 prior to crossing and beyond BRS and this was operative until such time as changed by ATC or the provisions of lost comm rules took effect (which appears to be a time well after the collision by application the rules).
The Legacy was under no obligation to request a lower altitude(or different altitude complying with the normal hemispheric plan) passing BRS nor should ATC have expected it to request a change.
The Legacy was maintaining its last cleared altitude and was required to do so
until it was changed by ATC(which by your own quotation it never did).
The listing of the fact that the Legacy did not request an altitude change as factor in a series of events causal to the accident is spinning.
This is a no spin zone.
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A310driver
There is a popular TV program in the US where the moderator refers to the fact that "this is a no-spin zone" meaning that guests are not allowed to "spin" the facts so that they appear to be something other than what they really are. Methinks that we have some of this going on in this thread including your last post where you imply that the fact that the Legacy pilots did not request a different altitude was one of the factors in a series of factors that caused the accident.
You apparently are neither an ATC person nor a pilot nor have you read my previous posts or those of others.
The Legacy was cleared by ATC to maintain FL 370 prior to crossing and beyond BRS and this was operative until such time as changed by ATC or the provisions of lost comm rules took effect (which appears to be a time well after the collision by application the rules).
The Legacy was under no obligation to request a lower altitude(or different altitude complying with the normal hemispheric plan) passing BRS nor should ATC have expected it to request a change.
The Legacy was maintaining its last cleared altitude and was required to do so
until it was changed by ATC(which by your own quotation it never did).
The Legacy was under no obligation to request a lower altitude(or different altitude complying with the normal hemispheric plan) passing BRS nor should ATC have expected it to request a change.
The Legacy was maintaining its last cleared altitude and was required to do so
until it was changed by ATC(which by your own quotation it never did).
The listing of the fact that the Legacy did not request an altitude change as factor in a series of events causal to the accident is spinning.
This is a no spin zone.
This is a no spin zone.
From Preliminary Report (not my words)
http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2006/061122a.htm
" After takeoff, N600XL was issued a number of interim altitudes during climb, all of which were read back. The flight was cleared to proceed direct to Araxa VOR (on airway UW2), and at 3:11 pm was cleared to climb to FL370 (note 1). At 3:33 pm, the airplane leveled at FL370.
At 3:51 pm, an air traffic controller in the Brasilia ACC (CINDACTA 1) instructed N600XL to change frequencies to the next controller's sector. The crew of N600XL reported in on the assigned frequency that the flight was level at FL370. ATC acknowledged and instructed the crew to "ident" (flash their transponder). Radar indicates that the ident was observed. This was the last two-way communication between N600XL and ATC. At this time the airplane was approximately 40 nautical miles south of BRS. "
http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2006/061122a.htm
" After takeoff, N600XL was issued a number of interim altitudes during climb, all of which were read back. The flight was cleared to proceed direct to Araxa VOR (on airway UW2), and at 3:11 pm was cleared to climb to FL370 (note 1). At 3:33 pm, the airplane leveled at FL370.
At 3:51 pm, an air traffic controller in the Brasilia ACC (CINDACTA 1) instructed N600XL to change frequencies to the next controller's sector. The crew of N600XL reported in on the assigned frequency that the flight was level at FL370. ATC acknowledged and instructed the crew to "ident" (flash their transponder). Radar indicates that the ident was observed. This was the last two-way communication between N600XL and ATC. At this time the airplane was approximately 40 nautical miles south of BRS. "
To be more clear, It was recognized by several Brazilian authorities that there was possibly an error in the language used by the controller of SBSJ, the one that would have authorized the level 370 until Manaus.
Btw, my first reply was to answer what was posted by RatherBeFlying
"There is a deeper software problem.
How is it that when the Legacy was cleared to Manaus at FL370, the flight plan was not amended with FL370 to Manaus? " Join Date: Oct 2006
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Transponder in today's news from O Globo
12/12/2006
EXAM DOESN'T POINT FLAW IN TRANSPONDER OF LEGACY
Jet that beat Gol Boeing had two antennas of radars.
Technicians believe that pilots would have turned off apparel.
The initial evaluation done by Honeywell, manufacturer of the transponder of the jet Legacy, didn't indicate significant alterations in the equipments of the airplane that it was collided on September 29 with a Gol Boeing. As a source of the Aeronautics, the jet counted with two apparels, and no one. One of the antennas perfectly worked. The second, however, it presented rocking registrations, that were not considered relevant to elucidate the causes of the disconnection.
The jet Legacy beat Gol Boeing on September 29. The airplane of the Brazilian aerial company fell in the North of Mato Grosso and the 154 people that were on board died. Preliminary report of the specialists' commission that investigates the causes of the accident pointed that the transponder of Legacy was turned off and, for that, it was not possible to check the altitude of the jet.
Up to now there is not a plausible explanation on what took the equipment to stop working. It is also unknown why the transponder emitted signs again after the collision. That reinforces the lifted up suspicions soon after the tragedy that the apparel would have been turned off by the American pilots, although unaware, for inobservance of procedures or for 'to test' the jet, making maneuvers.
The military say that the breakdown in a transponder is acceptable. For technicians of the Aeronautics, the disconnection of the transponder is still the cause number one of the collision.
After a trip to the United States, where he accompanied the expertise in the transponder of the jet, colonel Rufino Ferreira, responsible for the investigations, disembarked in Brasília and he sought the controllers that were on duty in the moment of the collision for a first conversation.
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/...98-295,00.html
EXAM DOESN'T POINT FLAW IN TRANSPONDER OF LEGACY
Jet that beat Gol Boeing had two antennas of radars.
Technicians believe that pilots would have turned off apparel.
The initial evaluation done by Honeywell, manufacturer of the transponder of the jet Legacy, didn't indicate significant alterations in the equipments of the airplane that it was collided on September 29 with a Gol Boeing. As a source of the Aeronautics, the jet counted with two apparels, and no one. One of the antennas perfectly worked. The second, however, it presented rocking registrations, that were not considered relevant to elucidate the causes of the disconnection.
The jet Legacy beat Gol Boeing on September 29. The airplane of the Brazilian aerial company fell in the North of Mato Grosso and the 154 people that were on board died. Preliminary report of the specialists' commission that investigates the causes of the accident pointed that the transponder of Legacy was turned off and, for that, it was not possible to check the altitude of the jet.
Up to now there is not a plausible explanation on what took the equipment to stop working. It is also unknown why the transponder emitted signs again after the collision. That reinforces the lifted up suspicions soon after the tragedy that the apparel would have been turned off by the American pilots, although unaware, for inobservance of procedures or for 'to test' the jet, making maneuvers.
The military say that the breakdown in a transponder is acceptable. For technicians of the Aeronautics, the disconnection of the transponder is still the cause number one of the collision.
After a trip to the United States, where he accompanied the expertise in the transponder of the jet, colonel Rufino Ferreira, responsible for the investigations, disembarked in Brasília and he sought the controllers that were on duty in the moment of the collision for a first conversation.
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/...98-295,00.html
foxtrot xray
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Nice article. This clears everthing up and adds a reasoned, unbiased, technically accurate perspective to the events leading up to the beating of the Gol Boeing by the jet with two antennas of radar.
I get it now.
I get it now.
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http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.ph...2-072307-7549r
NewsTrack - Top News
Airlines issue airspace warning for Brazil
SAO PAULO, Dec. 12 (UPI) -- Two foreign airlines are warning their pilots about the dangers of flying in Brazilian airspace following the deadliest accident on record in the country.
The airlines, both European and unnamed in a story in leading Brazilian newspaper Folha de Sao Paulo, are instructing their pilots to fly defensively in Brazilian airspace and remain on the outside of flying lanes until it is absolutely necessary to enter a landing pattern.
The warning followed the September mid-air sideswipe of two planes in Brazilian airspace that killed more than 150 people aboard a commercial airliner that crashed.
United Press International, Inc.
NewsTrack - Top News
Airlines issue airspace warning for Brazil
SAO PAULO, Dec. 12 (UPI) -- Two foreign airlines are warning their pilots about the dangers of flying in Brazilian airspace following the deadliest accident on record in the country.
The airlines, both European and unnamed in a story in leading Brazilian newspaper Folha de Sao Paulo, are instructing their pilots to fly defensively in Brazilian airspace and remain on the outside of flying lanes until it is absolutely necessary to enter a landing pattern.
The warning followed the September mid-air sideswipe of two planes in Brazilian airspace that killed more than 150 people aboard a commercial airliner that crashed.
United Press International, Inc.
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Having read the past 50 pages or so, I thought I would offer my tuppence-worth. Whatever the reason for the lost SSR/comms, it would appear to me that a major causal factor was the lack of robust ATM procedures. This accident occured with CAS, a known environment. If ATC did not know what the Legacy was doing, they were no longer able to provide IFR separation. It appears to me that somewhere along the line, ATC has assumed instead of knowing.
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12/12/2006
EXAM DOESN'T POINT FLAW IN TRANSPONDER OF LEGACY
...reinforces the lifted up suspicions soon after the tragedy that the apparel would have been turned off by the American pilots, although unaware, for inobservance of procedures or for 'to test' the jet, making maneuvers.
The military say that the breakdown in a transponder is acceptable. For technicians of the Aeronautics, the disconnection of the transponder is still the cause number one of the collision.
EXAM DOESN'T POINT FLAW IN TRANSPONDER OF LEGACY
...reinforces the lifted up suspicions soon after the tragedy that the apparel would have been turned off by the American pilots, although unaware, for inobservance of procedures or for 'to test' the jet, making maneuvers.
The military say that the breakdown in a transponder is acceptable. For technicians of the Aeronautics, the disconnection of the transponder is still the cause number one of the collision.
To raise up again the demonstrated false (via FDR and CVR data) allegation that the Legacy was maneuvering or 'testing performance' is unbelievable.
The fact that this and a series of other demonstrated false acusations were made by Brazilian officials speaks to poor investigative practice. It also probably kicked off the whole criminalisation thing.
If the NTSB or AAIB said "Pilot A was performing unauthorised maneuvers in contravention to his clearance prior to (collision, crash, some other bad thing)", I would expect a crimianal investigation to be launched and charges to be brought. It is a disappointment (and hopefully only releated to the specific individuals involved rather than the Brazilian Government in general) that just such serious allegations were made without any substance - in a situation where a few weeks of investigation would have demonstrated the lack of fact surounding these allegations.
It is also very worrying if the "technicians of the Aeronautics" believe that the failure of the transponder is the primary cause of the accident - This would indicate that Brazilian ATC is a fail dangerous system! And one that doesn't appear to be reliable in detecting this critical failure!
Last edited by mm_flynn; 13th Dec 2006 at 10:41. Reason: Fix html
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The thing is to find someone to blame and someone to pay......
Who was?, me sir?, not sir! ...who was then?
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http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/c...5u129291.shtml
Federal Police also makes responsible to three operators for the air accident
by LEONARDO SOUZA
In the partial report that will be delivered to Federal Justice tomorrow, the Federal Policy points that, of the 13 controllers of air traffic heard in the inquiry on the accident with the Goal, three had bigger responsibility. One of them is the one of the tower of control of Sao Jose dos Caomposs (SP) and two are of the tower of Brasilia. The commission agent of the PF Ramon Da Silva Almeida will ask for time extension of the inquiry, that he finishes tomorrow. As the majority of the flight controllers are from Aeronautic Force, but they carry on a considered civil activity, the PF will consult the Justice the way to treat them in the inquiry: if as common people, able to be accused, or if only must point the identified irregularities, suggesting the accusation, but leaving the decision to military court.
In the partial report, the Federal Policy will relate the committed errors per eachcontroller, but without associating them with eventual crimes. As the Folha anticipated last week, the final report will not point an only guilty group for the accident, but tos a conjunction of failures and responsibilities.
...
The three factors
In summary, in the vision of the PF, the accident would have not occurred if: 1 - The members of the Legacy crew had respected the plan of flight or insisted on the contact with the center of Brasilia; 2 - The flight controllers had detected that the Legacy flied at not foreseen altitude. Therefore, even without getting in contact with the Legacy, they could have informed the Gol´s crew to deviate from the route; 3 - If there where not "blind areas" between the radars, the flight controllers could have detected easily that the executive jet did not meet the altitude foreseen in its plan.
by LEONARDO SOUZA
In the partial report that will be delivered to Federal Justice tomorrow, the Federal Policy points that, of the 13 controllers of air traffic heard in the inquiry on the accident with the Goal, three had bigger responsibility. One of them is the one of the tower of control of Sao Jose dos Caomposs (SP) and two are of the tower of Brasilia. The commission agent of the PF Ramon Da Silva Almeida will ask for time extension of the inquiry, that he finishes tomorrow. As the majority of the flight controllers are from Aeronautic Force, but they carry on a considered civil activity, the PF will consult the Justice the way to treat them in the inquiry: if as common people, able to be accused, or if only must point the identified irregularities, suggesting the accusation, but leaving the decision to military court.
In the partial report, the Federal Policy will relate the committed errors per eachcontroller, but without associating them with eventual crimes. As the Folha anticipated last week, the final report will not point an only guilty group for the accident, but tos a conjunction of failures and responsibilities.
...
The three factors
In summary, in the vision of the PF, the accident would have not occurred if: 1 - The members of the Legacy crew had respected the plan of flight or insisted on the contact with the center of Brasilia; 2 - The flight controllers had detected that the Legacy flied at not foreseen altitude. Therefore, even without getting in contact with the Legacy, they could have informed the Gol´s crew to deviate from the route; 3 - If there where not "blind areas" between the radars, the flight controllers could have detected easily that the executive jet did not meet the altitude foreseen in its plan.
Last edited by agusaleale; 13th Dec 2006 at 10:10. Reason: mistakes in translation
foxtrot xray
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what happens now
Based on this last report just posted it is clear where the mind-set is in this "investigation"........the Legacy pilots should have realized that the ATC system was not doing its job and , perhaps that its equipment had failed, so that it could have "insisted" on contacting ATC to let them know that they were not doing their job. It's all perfectly clear and should be listed as the number one "cause" as it in fact was above. Claire Voyant is my co-pilot.
What really needs to happen now is that the Brazilian government(civil) should bring in a recognized Accident Investigation team from another country(not the USA NTSB, for obvious reasons) such as the UK, Australia, or Canada to take over this matter and provide an unbiased report which will be accepted by the rest of the world. If Brazil thinks this is an internal matter now it is badly mistaken.
What really needs to happen now is that the Brazilian government(civil) should bring in a recognized Accident Investigation team from another country(not the USA NTSB, for obvious reasons) such as the UK, Australia, or Canada to take over this matter and provide an unbiased report which will be accepted by the rest of the world. If Brazil thinks this is an internal matter now it is badly mistaken.
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That's an excellent point.
A US-made jet with Brazilian pilots, a Brazilian-made jet with US pilots, Brazilian controllers operating foreign-made systems - lots of potential for finger pointing even in the best of circumstances.
The best way to get an objective accident report with objective recommendations is to call on an objective third party. It won't make those closest to the event happy, but it can bring about a restoration of public confidence. (Which, judging from Brazilian traffic figures, is sorely needed.)
BTW, the impoundment of the Legacy should have given the opportunity for an outside electronics forensics expert to determine whether an intermittent wiring fault silenced the Comm and/or transponder. I hope the systems have not been disturbed to prevent this determination.
A US-made jet with Brazilian pilots, a Brazilian-made jet with US pilots, Brazilian controllers operating foreign-made systems - lots of potential for finger pointing even in the best of circumstances.
The best way to get an objective accident report with objective recommendations is to call on an objective third party. It won't make those closest to the event happy, but it can bring about a restoration of public confidence. (Which, judging from Brazilian traffic figures, is sorely needed.)
BTW, the impoundment of the Legacy should have given the opportunity for an outside electronics forensics expert to determine whether an intermittent wiring fault silenced the Comm and/or transponder. I hope the systems have not been disturbed to prevent this determination.
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Having flown into these countries and seeing how the controllers don't seem to understand the basics of ATC I finally after several events insisted on staying above the clouds in visual conditions before initiating the approach to minimize my exposure to a conflict. One of my last ones was being put in holding 100 ft above the clouds at 10,000 feet to notice my TCAS showed another aircraft approaching my holding fix at the same altitude. When I questioned the controller I heard a lot of Spanish back and forth and he climbed to 10,500 and I was told he was at 11,000 in english. The next turn in holding he was back at 10,000 and 2 miles in front of me so I disengaged the autopilot and made an evasive maneuver asking why was he there. His answer was to clear me for the approach and spoke in spanish to the other plane to hold. My 757 crew if we had collided I am sure would have been blamed for the conflict. This is not rocket science. Why do they not understand the basics of ATC?
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Another time we were cleared to the same IAF to 10,000 feet. Cloud tops were 11,000 feet. TCAS showed oposite direction traffic at 10,000 feet so we leveled at 11,000. The C130 went right underneath us in a break in the clouds. Amazing. The Brazilian police would have a very hard time getting me back there to answer their charges with their rules.
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Federal Police deliver inquiry to court
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/0,,AA1386360-5598,00.html
13/12/2006 - 16:49 - updated 13/12/2006 - 21:13
"There is evidence that the pilots contributed to the accident", says Federal Police
Federal Police deliver report to court this Wednesday.
Report points to negligence during flight.
Leandro Colon, special envoy of G1 to Cuiabá
[Photo of Jan and Joe at welcome reception, Joe holding 3-year-old]
Photo legend: Pilots arrive in USA after being formally accused
The superintendent of the Federal Police in Mato Grosso, Daniel Lorenz Azevedo, said this Wednesday (13) that the Federal Police have evidence that the pilots of the Legacy were partially responsible for the accident with the plane making Gol flight 1907 on September 29 which killed 154 people. "There is evidence and indications that the pilots had conduct that contributed to the accident", he said. The partial report of the Federal Police was delivered to Federal Court in Sinop (Mato Grosso) this Wednesday.
According to the superintendent, the dialogues on the jet's black box endanger Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino. "When the dialogues are compared with the technical data from the air traffic control center you can reach the conclusion that induced us to accuse the pilots", he affirmed.
The pilots were formally accused last Friday, December 8, under article 261 of the Criminal Code, which covers risk to air traffic. The penalty is from two to five years of prison, and can be increased by a third because of the deaths in the tragedy. For the Federal Police, the pilots were negligent in not perceiving that the transponder (the equipment that sends data from the airplane to the control tower and to other aircraft) of the jet was turned off for at least 50 minutes before the collision. According to the report, it is not possible to affirm if the equipment was turned off voluntarily, but there is proof that it was turned back on only two minutes after the collision.
The accusation of the pilots is in the partial report that police chief Ramon Almeida, who is in charge of the investigation, delivered this Wednesday to the court. The report, besides accusing the pilots, summarizes the 17 depositions given up to now, raises suspicions against the flight controllers, but still does not call them responsible for the accident. For the Federal Police, the negligence of the pilots, the failures of communication with the tower, and, possibly, the errors by controllers contributed to the tragedy.
New accusations
Lorenz Azevedo confirmed, without giving names, that additional persons may be accused if the court concedes the 30-day extension requested by the Federal Police. "The chances are great of new accusations against persons with vehement indications against them", he said. G1 learned that these "persons" are controllers in the São José dos Campos and Brasília towers.
Two factors have prevented the police from accusing the controllers up to now. The first is the Federal Police's jurisdiction to take this measure. The police fear their control being questioned by the Military Courts, since the controllers are military. That doubt should be settled for the police chief by the court in Sinop in the next few days.
Another point is that the police would like to hear the controller of the Manus tower, also in relation to the two flights, and conclude their examination of the dialogues on the black boxes of the jet and the Boeing, and of the graphical representation of the flights. By comparing this information, the Federal Police agree, it should be possible to show where the flight controllers are to blame.
The Federal Police does not give names in the report, but the heaviest suspicions weigh against one controller from São José dos Campos and two from Brasília. The first supposedly told the Legacy to take off to 37.000 feet and stay at that altitude to Manaus, when, in reality, it should have descended to 36.000 feet after Brasília and, at a given spot, ascended to 38,000.
As to Brasília, one of the controllers is said to not have perceived that the Legacy stayed at 37.000 feet, the same altitude at which the Gol Boeing was travelling, in the region of the accident. This controller, the police investigation says, did not pass this information to his relief at the shift change. This last, for his part, could have advised the Legacy on detecting the altitude error.
It is at this point, however, that the technical examination enters, that the police expect to complete in the next thirty days to know what the communication error was between the towers and the Legacy. The Federal Police consider the dialogues fundamental to clear up what happened in the accident.
While the inquiry is not sealed, the Federal Police will attempt to prevent the leaking of the dialogues, because a document from the Air Force prohibits divulging this type of information.
13/12/2006 - 16:49 - updated 13/12/2006 - 21:13
"There is evidence that the pilots contributed to the accident", says Federal Police
Federal Police deliver report to court this Wednesday.
Report points to negligence during flight.
Leandro Colon, special envoy of G1 to Cuiabá
[Photo of Jan and Joe at welcome reception, Joe holding 3-year-old]
Photo legend: Pilots arrive in USA after being formally accused
The superintendent of the Federal Police in Mato Grosso, Daniel Lorenz Azevedo, said this Wednesday (13) that the Federal Police have evidence that the pilots of the Legacy were partially responsible for the accident with the plane making Gol flight 1907 on September 29 which killed 154 people. "There is evidence and indications that the pilots had conduct that contributed to the accident", he said. The partial report of the Federal Police was delivered to Federal Court in Sinop (Mato Grosso) this Wednesday.
According to the superintendent, the dialogues on the jet's black box endanger Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino. "When the dialogues are compared with the technical data from the air traffic control center you can reach the conclusion that induced us to accuse the pilots", he affirmed.
The pilots were formally accused last Friday, December 8, under article 261 of the Criminal Code, which covers risk to air traffic. The penalty is from two to five years of prison, and can be increased by a third because of the deaths in the tragedy. For the Federal Police, the pilots were negligent in not perceiving that the transponder (the equipment that sends data from the airplane to the control tower and to other aircraft) of the jet was turned off for at least 50 minutes before the collision. According to the report, it is not possible to affirm if the equipment was turned off voluntarily, but there is proof that it was turned back on only two minutes after the collision.
The accusation of the pilots is in the partial report that police chief Ramon Almeida, who is in charge of the investigation, delivered this Wednesday to the court. The report, besides accusing the pilots, summarizes the 17 depositions given up to now, raises suspicions against the flight controllers, but still does not call them responsible for the accident. For the Federal Police, the negligence of the pilots, the failures of communication with the tower, and, possibly, the errors by controllers contributed to the tragedy.
New accusations
Lorenz Azevedo confirmed, without giving names, that additional persons may be accused if the court concedes the 30-day extension requested by the Federal Police. "The chances are great of new accusations against persons with vehement indications against them", he said. G1 learned that these "persons" are controllers in the São José dos Campos and Brasília towers.
Two factors have prevented the police from accusing the controllers up to now. The first is the Federal Police's jurisdiction to take this measure. The police fear their control being questioned by the Military Courts, since the controllers are military. That doubt should be settled for the police chief by the court in Sinop in the next few days.
Another point is that the police would like to hear the controller of the Manus tower, also in relation to the two flights, and conclude their examination of the dialogues on the black boxes of the jet and the Boeing, and of the graphical representation of the flights. By comparing this information, the Federal Police agree, it should be possible to show where the flight controllers are to blame.
The Federal Police does not give names in the report, but the heaviest suspicions weigh against one controller from São José dos Campos and two from Brasília. The first supposedly told the Legacy to take off to 37.000 feet and stay at that altitude to Manaus, when, in reality, it should have descended to 36.000 feet after Brasília and, at a given spot, ascended to 38,000.
As to Brasília, one of the controllers is said to not have perceived that the Legacy stayed at 37.000 feet, the same altitude at which the Gol Boeing was travelling, in the region of the accident. This controller, the police investigation says, did not pass this information to his relief at the shift change. This last, for his part, could have advised the Legacy on detecting the altitude error.
It is at this point, however, that the technical examination enters, that the police expect to complete in the next thirty days to know what the communication error was between the towers and the Legacy. The Federal Police consider the dialogues fundamental to clear up what happened in the accident.
While the inquiry is not sealed, the Federal Police will attempt to prevent the leaking of the dialogues, because a document from the Air Force prohibits divulging this type of information.
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Today on the news the Brazilian police said the pilots should have known that their transponder wasn't working. I guess when they were making those 12 attempts to make radio contact they should have been monitoring their transponder to see if it was still functioning. I never stare at the transponder during flight to see if it keeps working. If they can't talk to anybody it is amazing that the transponder would still work. Hummmmmmm?
What's been played out in Brazil over the last few months is the worst combination possible, a newly democratic country, separation of powers, the last residues of an opaque military dictatorship, a too green civil administration, personalities seeking fame, an ingrained societal tendency to blame others for inhouse failings.
The inhouse failings are multiple but the main one is a lack of infrastructure planning. I see it up close in my own little sphere, maritime transport, and peripherally in road transport, both areas where “normal” equals “problematical”. Air transport was never publicily perceived as a problem; we the traveling pubic became accustomed to the ease, regularity and, when Gol set up their Southwest lookalike, low cost of zipping around for afternoon meetings a thousand miles away, then zipping back. Quietly rather self-satisfied, perhaps, of this emerging democracy’s boasting the world’s second- or third-largest regular airline network and a very good safety record.
The Gol/Legacy collision has brought the entire house of cards down and, shown up the fragility of, not just ATC, but infrastructure planning in general. Nothing like the drama of thousands of people stranded, sleeping on granite airport floors, babies missing their heart transplants and congressment missing the meetings the lobbyists paid them to vote at, to get the country’s attention. The comlete shutdown of Brasilia ATC served to reveal that there was nobody in Brazil competent to diagnose what appears to have been a minor hardware fault; the manufacturers had to send someone from Italy to resolve it.
Mega-incompetence on a national scale isn’t the exclusive domain of Brazil, though, is it. Perhaps worth noting is how much real information on the collision and its aftermath has actually come through the work of journalists; much of it just passing on BS but, if you’ve followed the story, maturing into sensible, unbiased reporting. Learning curve.
In all of this the Legacy crews’ detention was, with respect, a sideshow. Unjust and, in realpolitik terms, stupid; an ambitious DA equivalent compromising the entire judicial system as well as the country’s image. Had it not been for that intervention, the Legacy crew would have been home very shortly after the collision. It unwittingly served to avoid the real issue of mismanagement of infrastructure, just not very effectively. It also served as a(nother) wakeup call against criminalisation of aviation accidents; the Brazilian commercial pilots’s union have addressed the recent congressional hearing on that subject.
As for what the future holds, as mentioned above a few European airlines have recommended offsetting when overflying Brazil; holiday season (mid-Dec through end Feb) hotel reservations are down ±50% vs last year; anyone who would like to travel is hedging; Brazil’s president Lula says ATC problems are solved but ANAC says they’ll continue for the next two to three months; ATC themselves say too little, too late. We will see. What seems increasingly likely is gradual transference of ATC to civilian management, although the mechanics of such a transfer are miles away from being designed.
Last comment: don't waste time on what the Federal Police say.
The inhouse failings are multiple but the main one is a lack of infrastructure planning. I see it up close in my own little sphere, maritime transport, and peripherally in road transport, both areas where “normal” equals “problematical”. Air transport was never publicily perceived as a problem; we the traveling pubic became accustomed to the ease, regularity and, when Gol set up their Southwest lookalike, low cost of zipping around for afternoon meetings a thousand miles away, then zipping back. Quietly rather self-satisfied, perhaps, of this emerging democracy’s boasting the world’s second- or third-largest regular airline network and a very good safety record.
The Gol/Legacy collision has brought the entire house of cards down and, shown up the fragility of, not just ATC, but infrastructure planning in general. Nothing like the drama of thousands of people stranded, sleeping on granite airport floors, babies missing their heart transplants and congressment missing the meetings the lobbyists paid them to vote at, to get the country’s attention. The comlete shutdown of Brasilia ATC served to reveal that there was nobody in Brazil competent to diagnose what appears to have been a minor hardware fault; the manufacturers had to send someone from Italy to resolve it.
Mega-incompetence on a national scale isn’t the exclusive domain of Brazil, though, is it. Perhaps worth noting is how much real information on the collision and its aftermath has actually come through the work of journalists; much of it just passing on BS but, if you’ve followed the story, maturing into sensible, unbiased reporting. Learning curve.
In all of this the Legacy crews’ detention was, with respect, a sideshow. Unjust and, in realpolitik terms, stupid; an ambitious DA equivalent compromising the entire judicial system as well as the country’s image. Had it not been for that intervention, the Legacy crew would have been home very shortly after the collision. It unwittingly served to avoid the real issue of mismanagement of infrastructure, just not very effectively. It also served as a(nother) wakeup call against criminalisation of aviation accidents; the Brazilian commercial pilots’s union have addressed the recent congressional hearing on that subject.
As for what the future holds, as mentioned above a few European airlines have recommended offsetting when overflying Brazil; holiday season (mid-Dec through end Feb) hotel reservations are down ±50% vs last year; anyone who would like to travel is hedging; Brazil’s president Lula says ATC problems are solved but ANAC says they’ll continue for the next two to three months; ATC themselves say too little, too late. We will see. What seems increasingly likely is gradual transference of ATC to civilian management, although the mechanics of such a transfer are miles away from being designed.
Last comment: don't waste time on what the Federal Police say.
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Having spent a lot of my life troubleshooting electronic systems I have found that new equipment is more likely to fail than one in service for a while. The Legacy plane was on it's initial real flight after the maintenance test flight so the transponder had never been exposed to the colder temperatures at altitude for a duration of time so hopefully when it is repaired the next crew will see if the transponder duplicates it's failure again when exposed to the same environment. If it fails again we will know why it quit working, if it works it could be an intermittent problem and not conclusive. The transponder started working again when they descended into warmer air so hopefully someone will look at that possibility. I could be wrong but I hope someone looks into this as a probable cause of the transponder failing.
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I'm not familiar with Embraers, but I seriously doubt the transponders are in a location to be affected by altitude and cold. They should be inside the pressure vessel. The antennas, otoh, are exposed to the elements. However if one antenna or coax failed, the other will do the job for collision avoidance in a TCAS encounter, even if not line of sight to an ATC antenna.
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And now the news.
Brazilian air workers union (http://www.aeronautas.org.br) objects to criminalization of Flight 1907 and impounding of pilots' passports, while Minister Pires washes hands of passport impounding; pilots' lawyers respond to Federal Police report claiming pilots failed to note transponder was off.
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/...1-5598,00.html
14/12/2006 – 09:03 – Updated 14/12/2006 – 09:32
Commandant rejects criminalization of air accidents
Union leader criticizes apprehension of passports of Legacy pilots
Jet collided with Gol Boeing; 154 people died
By G1, in São Paulo, with information from Agência Estado
In the committee of the Chamber of Deputies that is analyzing the air travel crisis, representatives of the sector asked for the beginning of a discussion at various level about the need to avoid the criminalization of air accidents. Commandant Célio Eugênio, flight security aide of the Aviation Workers' Union (Sindicáto dos Aeronautas) condemned the decision by the courts to impound the passports of the Legacy pilots, which collided with the Gol Boeing on September 29, for more than two months. Last week, the pilots were heard by the Federal Police and accused of placing at risk air security. Soon afterward, they left the country. If convicted, they could be sentenced to from one to three years of prison.
After the collision between the two aircraft, the Brazilian airline company's plane fell in the north of the state of Mato Grosso and the 154 people who were aboard died. It was Brazilian aviation's worst tragedy.
On warning that "the non-criminalization of the pilots is not a procedure to protect criminals", Célio Eugênio explained that accident investigations are undertaken to avoid other accidents occurring for the same reasons. "If we were to have hanging over us being accused of crimes we did not commit, we pilots could stop contributing toward improving the system", he declared.
Congressman Luiz Antônio Fleury Filho (PMDB-SP), however, contested the union leader's theory, alleging that "no one can be above the law". "It isn't possible that someone who's involved himself in a accident like this remain unpunished", he responded.
The Minister of Defense, Waldir Pires, made a point of emphasizing that the Government did not interfere in the case. "No one, strictly speaking, commits a crime [when piloting], unless he's a terrorist or a suicide. At no time did we interfere in the question of the passports. But a judicial decision must be complied with."
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/...3-5598,00.html
14/12/2006 - 18:04 - Updated 14/12/2006 - 18:11
Legacy pilots' lawyers respond to Federal Police report
Defense alleges that analyses of aviation rules are incorrect
According to lawyers, transponder was never turned off.
By G1, in São Paulo
Lawyers José Carlos Dias and Theo Dias, who are defending the pilots of the Legacy that collided with the Gol plane on September 29, issued a note, this Thursday (14), responding to the report that the Federal Police delivered Wednesday to the Federal Court in Sinop, in Mato Grosso.
For the superintendent of the Federal Police in Mato Grosso, Daniel Lorenz Azevedo, there is evidence that pilots Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino were partly responsible for the accident.
Here is the complete text of the note:
Brazilian air workers union (http://www.aeronautas.org.br) objects to criminalization of Flight 1907 and impounding of pilots' passports, while Minister Pires washes hands of passport impounding; pilots' lawyers respond to Federal Police report claiming pilots failed to note transponder was off.
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/...1-5598,00.html
14/12/2006 – 09:03 – Updated 14/12/2006 – 09:32
Commandant rejects criminalization of air accidents
Union leader criticizes apprehension of passports of Legacy pilots
Jet collided with Gol Boeing; 154 people died
By G1, in São Paulo, with information from Agência Estado
In the committee of the Chamber of Deputies that is analyzing the air travel crisis, representatives of the sector asked for the beginning of a discussion at various level about the need to avoid the criminalization of air accidents. Commandant Célio Eugênio, flight security aide of the Aviation Workers' Union (Sindicáto dos Aeronautas) condemned the decision by the courts to impound the passports of the Legacy pilots, which collided with the Gol Boeing on September 29, for more than two months. Last week, the pilots were heard by the Federal Police and accused of placing at risk air security. Soon afterward, they left the country. If convicted, they could be sentenced to from one to three years of prison.
After the collision between the two aircraft, the Brazilian airline company's plane fell in the north of the state of Mato Grosso and the 154 people who were aboard died. It was Brazilian aviation's worst tragedy.
On warning that "the non-criminalization of the pilots is not a procedure to protect criminals", Célio Eugênio explained that accident investigations are undertaken to avoid other accidents occurring for the same reasons. "If we were to have hanging over us being accused of crimes we did not commit, we pilots could stop contributing toward improving the system", he declared.
Congressman Luiz Antônio Fleury Filho (PMDB-SP), however, contested the union leader's theory, alleging that "no one can be above the law". "It isn't possible that someone who's involved himself in a accident like this remain unpunished", he responded.
The Minister of Defense, Waldir Pires, made a point of emphasizing that the Government did not interfere in the case. "No one, strictly speaking, commits a crime [when piloting], unless he's a terrorist or a suicide. At no time did we interfere in the question of the passports. But a judicial decision must be complied with."
http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/...3-5598,00.html
14/12/2006 - 18:04 - Updated 14/12/2006 - 18:11
Legacy pilots' lawyers respond to Federal Police report
Defense alleges that analyses of aviation rules are incorrect
According to lawyers, transponder was never turned off.
By G1, in São Paulo
Lawyers José Carlos Dias and Theo Dias, who are defending the pilots of the Legacy that collided with the Gol plane on September 29, issued a note, this Thursday (14), responding to the report that the Federal Police delivered Wednesday to the Federal Court in Sinop, in Mato Grosso.
For the superintendent of the Federal Police in Mato Grosso, Daniel Lorenz Azevedo, there is evidence that pilots Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino were partly responsible for the accident.
Here is the complete text of the note:
"In a highly complex investigation, as in an air accident, it is worrying to see a police chief, who has taken over the case only a few days before, make accusations based on incorrect analyses of the rules and procedures of aviation, as well as of the conduct of the pilots.
"The transponder was never turned off by the pilots, and, at the present moment, it is not possible to affirm if it was or was not working. The fact is that, for reasons that aren't known, the ground radar did not receive the signal emitted by the aircraft's transponder.
The pilots did not have any way to access that information. In accordance with IMA 100-12 (Rules of Air and Air Traffic Services of the Ministry of Aeronautics), it is the controller who should inform the pilot, or inform the next control position, when the aircraft's transponder is not operating or is operating inadequately.
"The police chief adventured into a technical universe with which he is unfamiliar, rushed to conclusions ahead of specialist, which has contributed only to throw into tumult the process of investigating the accident, which should be professional, cautious, and impartial.
"José Carlos Dias e Theo Dias"
"The transponder was never turned off by the pilots, and, at the present moment, it is not possible to affirm if it was or was not working. The fact is that, for reasons that aren't known, the ground radar did not receive the signal emitted by the aircraft's transponder.
The pilots did not have any way to access that information. In accordance with IMA 100-12 (Rules of Air and Air Traffic Services of the Ministry of Aeronautics), it is the controller who should inform the pilot, or inform the next control position, when the aircraft's transponder is not operating or is operating inadequately.
"The police chief adventured into a technical universe with which he is unfamiliar, rushed to conclusions ahead of specialist, which has contributed only to throw into tumult the process of investigating the accident, which should be professional, cautious, and impartial.
"José Carlos Dias e Theo Dias"