Mid-air collision over Brasil
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Having seen great pix of one taken off on the tarmac in South Africa I can say that any 8 year girl fed on minimum 2 decent meals a day could do some serious damage to it !
Love the word frangible....just about sez it all......
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Forces required to remove a winglet are not that much I have a pic of a BBJ winglet left in the horizontal stab of another aircraft on taxi.
The leading edge cuts in like a knife through butter but once it hits something hard (Spar etc) then the composites come apart pretty easily.
Given the closure speed head to head would be 1600km + then a winglet will go through the front a 737 with no problem, if it went right in the front it would go through the cockpit floor and subsequent control cables before it hit the nose gear support structure and entered the e&e bay. Game over after that.
I had a look at my NG FCTM for non normals and basically is say your on your own.
All conjecture at this stage anyway those 3 view pics could certainly be different if the 737 had even just a little bank on it….., some one hit something over Brazil and a lot o people have lost their lives, the final report will certainly make for interesting reading.
The leading edge cuts in like a knife through butter but once it hits something hard (Spar etc) then the composites come apart pretty easily.
Given the closure speed head to head would be 1600km + then a winglet will go through the front a 737 with no problem, if it went right in the front it would go through the cockpit floor and subsequent control cables before it hit the nose gear support structure and entered the e&e bay. Game over after that.
I had a look at my NG FCTM for non normals and basically is say your on your own.
All conjecture at this stage anyway those 3 view pics could certainly be different if the 737 had even just a little bank on it….., some one hit something over Brazil and a lot o people have lost their lives, the final report will certainly make for interesting reading.
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I'll post anything real and worthwhile for aviation safety f and when I have it...but even though the site is called PPRUNE put the emphasis on the PP rather than the R.
Fly straight, blue side up and transponder ON!
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Obviously, there will be other possibilities of how an impact could have happened. I just wanted to illustrate that even if both planes fly level, are on the same FL, flying in exactly opposite directions, the damage as observed on the Legacy can be explained.
P.M.
aka Capt PPRuNe
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This thread is about to get shut down. Far too many indications of enthusiasts debating the scenarios whilst showing a severe lack of even basic physics understanding.
If you don't understand the concept of kinetic energy then please leave this debate alone. Those that fail to grasp even the rudimentary idea that a collision, whether it was just a winglet striking another part of a bigger aircraft or whatever, involves tremendous forces. It's not Hollywood fantasy.
Perhaps the easiest example is why can a bullet that weighs only a few grammes pass through sheet metal? Precisely why a winglet or any other part of an aircraft striking another aircraft, especially head on can do tremendous damage even if only the winglet or a small part of the empennage is what you see in the photos.
So, please, if you're going to speculate at least do a bit of basic study before making me and no doubt many others cringe with embarrassment before posting such ill informed comments or conclusions. It was a requirement that you at least had some basic grounding in physics before you could get your ATPL licence and too many posts on here are showing up the posters as obviously not having those basic requirements yet feel they can take part in the debate. Well, no thank you. I may still have to restrict this forum and threads such as this to those with the qualifications to at least hold a professional licence.
If you don't understand the concept of kinetic energy then please leave this debate alone. Those that fail to grasp even the rudimentary idea that a collision, whether it was just a winglet striking another part of a bigger aircraft or whatever, involves tremendous forces. It's not Hollywood fantasy.
Perhaps the easiest example is why can a bullet that weighs only a few grammes pass through sheet metal? Precisely why a winglet or any other part of an aircraft striking another aircraft, especially head on can do tremendous damage even if only the winglet or a small part of the empennage is what you see in the photos.
So, please, if you're going to speculate at least do a bit of basic study before making me and no doubt many others cringe with embarrassment before posting such ill informed comments or conclusions. It was a requirement that you at least had some basic grounding in physics before you could get your ATPL licence and too many posts on here are showing up the posters as obviously not having those basic requirements yet feel they can take part in the debate. Well, no thank you. I may still have to restrict this forum and threads such as this to those with the qualifications to at least hold a professional licence.
Pegase Driver
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I would have thought that by now the Brazilian ANSP would have released at least the last clearances issued to both aircraft to eliminate any ATC mishap possibility.
Anyone has heard or seen anything in the Brazilian Media on this issue ?
Anyone has heard or seen anything in the Brazilian Media on this issue ?
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I don't know whether that was aimed at me Danny, but I am well versed in Physics.
I undestand the concept of momentum and kinetic energy. But the one other factor in the damage that can be cause is force and this is squarely proportional to surface area. For the winglet to have done what many on here believe to have happened ie slice into the 737's wing probably up to the spar it would have had to be a collision square on or there or there abouts to maximise force, and hence penetrating power. The failure of the winglet would tend to suggest this wouldn't be the case. Let's not forget for all the damage a bizjet will do with its kinetic energy, the 737 will do the same with it's as well with more due to greater mass.
That is the head on straight and level scenario. I'm sure there is a lateral component to this, and as the previous diagrams have shown this will take either a climb or bank from one or both. If so, why such a maneouver ??
I undestand the concept of momentum and kinetic energy. But the one other factor in the damage that can be cause is force and this is squarely proportional to surface area. For the winglet to have done what many on here believe to have happened ie slice into the 737's wing probably up to the spar it would have had to be a collision square on or there or there abouts to maximise force, and hence penetrating power. The failure of the winglet would tend to suggest this wouldn't be the case. Let's not forget for all the damage a bizjet will do with its kinetic energy, the 737 will do the same with it's as well with more due to greater mass.
That is the head on straight and level scenario. I'm sure there is a lateral component to this, and as the previous diagrams have shown this will take either a climb or bank from one or both. If so, why such a maneouver ??
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Danny
You are right Danny. But does anybody know what the headings of the two aircraft involved in the accident were? They could be head on, from the side, from behind etc..
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no luv and river city
if headings were known (even assumed no wind conditions) and sun angle at time of day, this might support a non head on crash.
and if only the PILOT(not copilot)to of the legacy recalls the shadow, perhaps the boeing was at his 9 o'clock position. sun at back of boeing casting shadow
anyone have approximate headings from departure to destination on these 2 flights, no wind magnetic will do nicely.
to the chap who made the nice picture, I applaud your effort...I wish your magic computer could shift the image to show the legacy 90 degrees to boeing, the winglet striking the bottom of the boeing and the horizontal stabilizer hitting the cockpit.
unlikely that the legacy overtook the boeing from behind.
I recall the physics of flight being discussed with reference to helicopters and bumble bees, SIKORSKY said something like: according to physics the bumble bee can't fly, BUT because the bumble bee doesn't know PHYSICS, he goes around flying quite nicely...same too the 'copter.
regards
jon
if headings were known (even assumed no wind conditions) and sun angle at time of day, this might support a non head on crash.
and if only the PILOT(not copilot)to of the legacy recalls the shadow, perhaps the boeing was at his 9 o'clock position. sun at back of boeing casting shadow
anyone have approximate headings from departure to destination on these 2 flights, no wind magnetic will do nicely.
to the chap who made the nice picture, I applaud your effort...I wish your magic computer could shift the image to show the legacy 90 degrees to boeing, the winglet striking the bottom of the boeing and the horizontal stabilizer hitting the cockpit.
unlikely that the legacy overtook the boeing from behind.
I recall the physics of flight being discussed with reference to helicopters and bumble bees, SIKORSKY said something like: according to physics the bumble bee can't fly, BUT because the bumble bee doesn't know PHYSICS, he goes around flying quite nicely...same too the 'copter.
regards
jon
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Headings
Both planes were on UZ6 airway, which is 154 southbound (the 737) and 334 northbound (the Legacy).
If someone has Jepps available, take a look at SA(HI)-4, the collision happened close to TAROP intersection.
If someone has Jepps available, take a look at SA(HI)-4, the collision happened close to TAROP intersection.
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I was thinking of the "shadow" as actually being the underbelly of the 738, but being seen so quickly as it appeared from the bizjet's blind side (above and behind), being interpreted as a shadow in the brief seconds before colliding.
BTW: I worked at Sikorsky's factory and saw him occasionally. Heck of a nice guy.
BTW: I worked at Sikorsky's factory and saw him occasionally. Heck of a nice guy.
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broomstick flyer
thanks for the course they were on...I don't have south american jepps.
so much for the 90 degree theory.
perhaps the legacy hit the boeing at exactly the right angle to cut vital control cables or hydraulic lines... or even a glancing blow to the cockpit
does anyone have the winds aloft for this time, altitude and position?
I would also like to see a picture of the belly of the legacy in case contact was made there., though the shadow bit throws that off too.
thanks for the course they were on...I don't have south american jepps.
so much for the 90 degree theory.
perhaps the legacy hit the boeing at exactly the right angle to cut vital control cables or hydraulic lines... or even a glancing blow to the cockpit
does anyone have the winds aloft for this time, altitude and position?
I would also like to see a picture of the belly of the legacy in case contact was made there., though the shadow bit throws that off too.
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J.O.
you make a good point, or could cable to uplocks been pulled by slicing action of winglet
this will be a case of a bullet hitting a bullet.
has Brazil released any ATC radar data yet? didn't someone say that the radar showed 1000' seperation?
is it possible the pilots forgot to set 29.92 inches and were 1000' off, then switched off transponder to correct everything and just got banged?
harkens back to that film I mentioned, "the crowded sky".
somehow I have to think the legacy was on top to survive.
j
you make a good point, or could cable to uplocks been pulled by slicing action of winglet
this will be a case of a bullet hitting a bullet.
has Brazil released any ATC radar data yet? didn't someone say that the radar showed 1000' seperation?
is it possible the pilots forgot to set 29.92 inches and were 1000' off, then switched off transponder to correct everything and just got banged?
harkens back to that film I mentioned, "the crowded sky".
somehow I have to think the legacy was on top to survive.
j
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shift the image to show the legacy 90 degrees to Boeing, the winglet striking the bottom of the boeing and the horizontal stabilizer hitting the cockpit.
