Mid-air collision over Brasil
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does everyone remember the Swissair/Athens manslaughter trial, conducted in 1983 for a crash in '79?
with modern fdr/cvr and a hopefully impartial member of the 4th estate on board the plane, perhaps we will find some degree of truth.
j
with modern fdr/cvr and a hopefully impartial member of the 4th estate on board the plane, perhaps we will find some degree of truth.
j
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these words, written more than 40 years ago, seem even more prophetic today:
Hank Searls says in his prologue(the crowded sky): "The airway is not a highway, but an invisible alley, sometimes of infinite height. Day or night, its traveler depends for safety not as the motorist does on keeping right or left of a center line, but on holding a promised speed and an assigned altitude. If he speeds up, he will overtake his predecessor; if he climbs or descends inad-vertently, he is suddenly in an opposite stream of traffic approaching with the speed of sound."
Hank Searls says in his prologue(the crowded sky): "The airway is not a highway, but an invisible alley, sometimes of infinite height. Day or night, its traveler depends for safety not as the motorist does on keeping right or left of a center line, but on holding a promised speed and an assigned altitude. If he speeds up, he will overtake his predecessor; if he climbs or descends inad-vertently, he is suddenly in an opposite stream of traffic approaching with the speed of sound."
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Not to jump the gun, but where could this lead for the crew of the Legacy?
Hypothetically, how would Brasil's justice system handle any forthcoming case? Are there any precedents for foriegn air crew being actually charged and convicted after an accident, as opposed to simply being held for questioning?
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but the speculation seems to be getting a bit repetitive. So, until more facts are forthcoming....
Hypothetically, how would Brasil's justice system handle any forthcoming case? Are there any precedents for foriegn air crew being actually charged and convicted after an accident, as opposed to simply being held for questioning?
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but the speculation seems to be getting a bit repetitive. So, until more facts are forthcoming....
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CBS News Coverage
Link to NBC video of Joe Sharkey talking about the MAC on the Today Show here
It said the Legacy flew at 37,000 feet to the capital Brasilia, but then ignored an order to descend to 36,000 feet to continue its flight to the Amazon city of Manaus. The Gol jetliner was flying at 37,000 feet from Manaus to Brasilia en route to Rio de Janeiro.
U.S. journalist Joe Sharkey, who was on the smaller plane, wrote in The New York Times that he visited the pilots shortly before the crash. He said they told him "the plane was flying beautifully" and he noted a display of the altitude read 37,000 feet............
U.S. journalist Joe Sharkey, who was on the smaller plane, wrote in The New York Times that he visited the pilots shortly before the crash. He said they told him "the plane was flying beautifully" and he noted a display of the altitude read 37,000 feet............
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Are you guys aware that teams from Boeing and NTSB have been sent to Brazil,to cooperate in the investigation?So I guess there will be no cover up for any mistake form anybody in this accident...Furthermore,I ask you people,what do you think the Brazilian authoirities should do,when there is a suspicion that those Legacy pilots could have been responsible for the death of 165 people?Give them a slap in the wrist and wave'em goodbye?Mind ya,I'm not saying they are,but CVR's and FDR's have been recovered so let's wait and see...One thing seems out of contention here:THEY did clip the GOL 738,which was flying his assigned flight level and approved flight plan,wasn't he?
Meatball and FlyVMO,
I haven't heard of their being arrested. Yet. The AirForce say officially and quite prudently there are no grounds for laying blame yet, although individuals therein and connected thereto have given the press their personal opinions which weigh pretty heavily against the Legacy crew.
I won't begin to try to explain the legal system in Brazil other than to say that an accident of this magnitude allows magistrates in a broad range of jurisdictions to issue court orders based on incomplete information.
That doesn't mean the two Legacy guys will be put behind bars. They'll have to wait out the investigation period and probably a good part of the ensuing legal battle in a hotel. Given the widely published "evidence" (yes, that too could be baloney) that they took some liberties prior to the collision, they'll be the targets of considerable public hostility for some time.
I haven't heard of their being arrested. Yet. The AirForce say officially and quite prudently there are no grounds for laying blame yet, although individuals therein and connected thereto have given the press their personal opinions which weigh pretty heavily against the Legacy crew.
I won't begin to try to explain the legal system in Brazil other than to say that an accident of this magnitude allows magistrates in a broad range of jurisdictions to issue court orders based on incomplete information.
That doesn't mean the two Legacy guys will be put behind bars. They'll have to wait out the investigation period and probably a good part of the ensuing legal battle in a hotel. Given the widely published "evidence" (yes, that too could be baloney) that they took some liberties prior to the collision, they'll be the targets of considerable public hostility for some time.
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Do you agree that flying the incorrect FL, with the transponder OFF or inoperative the aircraft should be intercepted by military ACFT to check what is going on? 
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even if legacy ignored clearance to descend and radar and radio contact were adequate with 737, a heading change or altitude change for 737 could have solved the problem.
there will be room enough for blame...a bit for ATC, a bit for legacy, a bit for unknowns.
the rate things are going, I expect to hear something within 1 week, definitive tapes from ATC, CVR's from both planes, and perhaps most importantly, the FDR from legacy...if making many maneuvers, 5000' altitude changes as has been suggested, coupled with loss of transponder on ATC radar tapes...we may have a cause.
mentioning early posts about offsets, maybe it is time to go to "one way " airways...with gps, we no longer need to go over the top of a VOR.
there will be room enough for blame...a bit for ATC, a bit for legacy, a bit for unknowns.
the rate things are going, I expect to hear something within 1 week, definitive tapes from ATC, CVR's from both planes, and perhaps most importantly, the FDR from legacy...if making many maneuvers, 5000' altitude changes as has been suggested, coupled with loss of transponder on ATC radar tapes...we may have a cause.
mentioning early posts about offsets, maybe it is time to go to "one way " airways...with gps, we no longer need to go over the top of a VOR.
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Midair
Are you guys aware that teams from Boeing and NTSB have been sent to Brazil,to cooperate in the investigation?So I guess there will be no cover up for any mistake form anybody in this accident...Furthermore,I ask you people,what do you think the Brazilian authoirities should do,when there is a suspicion that those Legacy pilots could have been responsible for the death of 165 people?Give them a slap in the wrist and wave'em goodbye?
Certainly the Boeing folks will be there; not sure about the NTSB guys.
Accidents in Brazil were investigated by the Air Force teams following international procedures and often, asked for assistance from other international agencies, if that was the case.
Never heard of anybody being jailed for causing an air crash; however, if I am not mistaken (I am not an attorney), the Brazilian Penal Code caters for two types of homicides: "Culposo" (intention to cause someone's death), and "Doloso" (there was no intention, such as negligence or something).
The civilian authorities could use the Penal Code to charge the crew with the second option above, if they were to be found guilty in a court of law. Justice is tradionally slow in that part of the world and it could take years to get things done.
The Air Force investigators would just issue the results of their findings and it would be up to the civilians to take any action.
(note my past tense ... I can only talk about how things were twenty years ago, when I lived there).
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
First sensible statement I´ve heard in a couple of days.....
Premature to lay blame over plane crash, dpa German Press Agency.
Cuiaba, Brazil- The Brazilian Air Force (FAB) on Wednesday warned that it was "premature" to assign responsibility for the worst plane crash in the country's history, after state police earlier in the day said they were investigating two US pilots. FAB said in a statement that investigations into Saturday's mid- air collision were ongoing, and that it was too early "to establish any judgement or make comments" about the case.......
Premature to lay blame over plane crash, dpa German Press Agency.
Cuiaba, Brazil- The Brazilian Air Force (FAB) on Wednesday warned that it was "premature" to assign responsibility for the worst plane crash in the country's history, after state police earlier in the day said they were investigating two US pilots. FAB said in a statement that investigations into Saturday's mid- air collision were ongoing, and that it was too early "to establish any judgement or make comments" about the case.......
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Originally Posted by http://rawstory.com/news/2006/premature_to_lay_blame_over_plane_c_10042006.html
The US National Transportation Safety Board has sent three investigators to assist in the probe, and representatives of the US Federal Aviation Administration and Boeing Aircraft Company were also heading to the accident scene, a NTSB official said on Tuesday.
"Never heard of anybody being jailed for causing an air crash; however, if I am not mistaken (I am not an attorney)" (Originally posted by aimscabinet)
As I recall, an ATCO (Tasic I think his name was) was jailed in 1977 following a MAC over Zagreb between a DC9 and a Trident 3 but was released on appeal after 2 years in prison. It was a very complex case as I remember.
As I recall, an ATCO (Tasic I think his name was) was jailed in 1977 following a MAC over Zagreb between a DC9 and a Trident 3 but was released on appeal after 2 years in prison. It was a very complex case as I remember.
Last edited by Blues&twos; 26th Nov 2006 at 18:33. Reason: Credit original post
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Wasn't a Dash 8 pilot gaoled for manslaughter (or at least charged) over a crash in New Zealand a year or two ago, using cockpit voice recorder transcripts as evidence?
*****
I see that the moderators have resurrected the two links on offsetting mentioned a few pages back.
Worth reading, if only to see that this topic was covered in depth ten years ago on PPrune.
http://www.pprune.org/pub/tech/MidAir2.html
http://www.pprune.org/pub/tech/MidAir.html
*****
I see that the moderators have resurrected the two links on offsetting mentioned a few pages back.
Worth reading, if only to see that this topic was covered in depth ten years ago on PPrune.
http://www.pprune.org/pub/tech/MidAir2.html
http://www.pprune.org/pub/tech/MidAir.html
Last edited by 410; 6th Oct 2006 at 05:52.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Worth looking at http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2951 from the archives, too.
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http://www.asigroup.com/HOTSPOTS.asp#129029
Has the (possible) lack of license been mentioned yet?
Local media reports on 4 October 2006 state that the pilots of an Embraer Legacy jet that collided with a Boeing 737 operated by Gol on 29 September remain detained in Brazil and that their U.S. passports have been seized. Reports indicate that while representatives of ExcelAire (the U.S.-based company that bought the Legacy) claim that the pilots onboard the flight were commercial pilots who are licensed to fly Embraer aircraft, the U.S. Federal Administration Agency (FAA) indicated that the pilot of the executive jet does not have the required license to fly this type of aircraft. The co-pilot does have this certification, according to the registries.
The U.S. pilots’ situation has become more complicated, as Brazilian aviation authorities have alleged that the radar registries revealed that they were flying with the transponder turned off and that they did not respond to the call of the Cindacta 1 control tower in Brasilia. After the collision, however, the pilots allegedly turned on the transponder and contacted the control tower, announcing they had hit an unidentified object. Brazilian aviation authorities are considering the possibility that the new aircraft developed technical difficulties with the transponder and that human error may have also played a role in the collision. The Federal Police force is also involved in the investigation. ASI Group will continue to update as information becomes available.
The U.S. pilots’ situation has become more complicated, as Brazilian aviation authorities have alleged that the radar registries revealed that they were flying with the transponder turned off and that they did not respond to the call of the Cindacta 1 control tower in Brasilia. After the collision, however, the pilots allegedly turned on the transponder and contacted the control tower, announcing they had hit an unidentified object. Brazilian aviation authorities are considering the possibility that the new aircraft developed technical difficulties with the transponder and that human error may have also played a role in the collision. The Federal Police force is also involved in the investigation. ASI Group will continue to update as information becomes available.
Pegase Driver
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Worth looking at http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2951 from the archives, too.
Enbedded 0.1 NM off set to the right still makes a lot of sense, and will continue to do so for a long time.
The matter of Mr Lepore's type rating not showing up on the FAA registry is meaningless. It often takes about 60 days (or more) from the time that the temporary certificate is issued for this to be reflected on FAA.gov. How does anyone know that he didn't recently complete training. Sloppy, lazy reporting. As with so many other aspects of this accident, there appears to be no shortage of unsubstantiated ill-informed and possibly biased reporting going on in the Brazillian press. Conviction by innuendo. One might even call it a smear campaign. All the reports I have read from their press regarding the Legacy crew have been slanted toward a presumption of guilt without basis in verifiable fact. I guess if the officials involved know Mr. Lepore's certifications, they either don't care to tell the press, or the press simply can't let facts get in the way of a good story. In the US, what they are doing is known as a hatchet job. On the good side, it makes the US and british press look a little better in comparison.
Best,
Westhawk
Best,
Westhawk
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Westhawk
Smear campaign? Conviction by innuendo? Sloppy, lazy reporting? Hatchet job?
The press here are doing what the press do anywhere, reporting what has been released in press conferences and bulletins, calling on talking head specialists and speculating about the causes of this accident. You don't have to go back very far to see the same happening in the US (Comair), and Europe (Helios).
The press (and us on Pprune !!) speculate on the causes of the accident, and the most likely outcome of any inquiry. They (and us) have only the currently available information to go on, therefore they (and us) may not even be on the right track. That does not make them (or us) biased in our views.
Mr Lepore's type rating is relevant, whether you like it or not. It could indicate that he is not an experienced pilot on the Legacy and quite likely had not explored the full flight envelope. Do you see where that leads? This information, BTW is attributed to the FAA, not ANAC.
The only hatchet job so far has come from Joe Sharkey, with his innuendo and smears against Brazil, claiming that the pilots are in peril down here. His attitude reeks of sloppy and sensationalist reporting and looks very like someone preparing the ground for a campaign against this country in the event that the Legacy crew did something wrong and have to face the legal process here.
The investigation will be thorough and competent and will reach it's conclusions based on fact. The investigation team has representatives from Boeing, the FAA and the NTSB, and I doubt that these organisations would be party to a cover-up or an attempt to frame two US pilots.
The press here is no different to the press anywhere. There's good and bad, sensible and sensational and we choose our press sources to match our own preconceptions.
Smear campaign? Conviction by innuendo? Sloppy, lazy reporting? Hatchet job?
The press here are doing what the press do anywhere, reporting what has been released in press conferences and bulletins, calling on talking head specialists and speculating about the causes of this accident. You don't have to go back very far to see the same happening in the US (Comair), and Europe (Helios).
The press (and us on Pprune !!) speculate on the causes of the accident, and the most likely outcome of any inquiry. They (and us) have only the currently available information to go on, therefore they (and us) may not even be on the right track. That does not make them (or us) biased in our views.
Mr Lepore's type rating is relevant, whether you like it or not. It could indicate that he is not an experienced pilot on the Legacy and quite likely had not explored the full flight envelope. Do you see where that leads? This information, BTW is attributed to the FAA, not ANAC.
The only hatchet job so far has come from Joe Sharkey, with his innuendo and smears against Brazil, claiming that the pilots are in peril down here. His attitude reeks of sloppy and sensationalist reporting and looks very like someone preparing the ground for a campaign against this country in the event that the Legacy crew did something wrong and have to face the legal process here.
The investigation will be thorough and competent and will reach it's conclusions based on fact. The investigation team has representatives from Boeing, the FAA and the NTSB, and I doubt that these organisations would be party to a cover-up or an attempt to frame two US pilots.
The press here is no different to the press anywhere. There's good and bad, sensible and sensational and we choose our press sources to match our own preconceptions.
Last edited by alemaobaiano; 5th Oct 2006 at 12:05. Reason: Grammar
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The two pilots have been "detained" by the Brazilian Authorites pending an investigation which may lead to charges of manslaughter. Their passports have also been confiscated too. The boxes have been recovered from the crash sight of the 738. So the jury is still out on the actual cause of this tragic accident.
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Aeronautical Authorities work on "bad contact" theory
Interesting article.
http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/c...5u126678.shtml
To summarize, the investigating authorities are working on a theory that as a brand new airplane, the transponder may have had a "bad electrical contact" with a switch or wiring, meaning that the transponder was on and off (intermittent) without the pilots knowing about it (a possible "infant mortality" issue I suggested earlier). In the article, the sources did not indicate why they were looking at this theory, or what lead them to pursue this theory.
In their "combination of causal events" hypothesis, the pilot did not descend to FL360 from FL370 as per the flight plan, and since the transponder was not working properly due to the "bad contact" problem, the TCAS warning failed. Then after the impact, the "bad contact" corrected due to the impact and turned the transponder back on again. In the article there's some discussion about ATC response to the transponder disappearing prior to the collision, but the computer translation leaves the grammer and exact meaing of that paragraph in doubt (at least for me). I can't tell if ATC tried to contact the Legacy pilots about the loss of the transponder or failed to do so.
In any event according to the article, the authorities are not sure if this is a good theory or not, but are working it as part of the investigation. At least it's nice to know the Aeronautical Authorities are trying to give the pilots the benefit of the doubt about the operation of the transponder.
http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/c...5u126678.shtml
To summarize, the investigating authorities are working on a theory that as a brand new airplane, the transponder may have had a "bad electrical contact" with a switch or wiring, meaning that the transponder was on and off (intermittent) without the pilots knowing about it (a possible "infant mortality" issue I suggested earlier). In the article, the sources did not indicate why they were looking at this theory, or what lead them to pursue this theory.
In their "combination of causal events" hypothesis, the pilot did not descend to FL360 from FL370 as per the flight plan, and since the transponder was not working properly due to the "bad contact" problem, the TCAS warning failed. Then after the impact, the "bad contact" corrected due to the impact and turned the transponder back on again. In the article there's some discussion about ATC response to the transponder disappearing prior to the collision, but the computer translation leaves the grammer and exact meaing of that paragraph in doubt (at least for me). I can't tell if ATC tried to contact the Legacy pilots about the loss of the transponder or failed to do so.
In any event according to the article, the authorities are not sure if this is a good theory or not, but are working it as part of the investigation. At least it's nice to know the Aeronautical Authorities are trying to give the pilots the benefit of the doubt about the operation of the transponder.