Airport Security (Merged) - Effects on Crew/Staff
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I would suggest that any operting crew member, using a crew search facility now just takes whatever they require, as long as no liquids are carried. If you have an overnight bag in addition, then so be it. Seems to me rules for us now read life as before, minus any liquids...............
30W
30W
Well, there is someone who wrote down what most have een thinking..
Standardized aircrew id would be a good start, so you know the uniformed guyin front of you is indeed a genuine pilot. Now a genuine pilot would not do crazy things, and as long as he's carrying a decent amount of stuff he might need, you should leave him alone and focus on other security holes outside the public eye.
I know its a nice show to almost strip down a pilot or cabin crew in front of the travelling public, but the gain from that investment in time and money doesn't really pay off in increased safety.
Just my view. Pilots are no Gods, certainly not. But sometimes they have to jump to a couple too many hoops to be able to execute their actual profession.
Standardized aircrew id would be a good start, so you know the uniformed guyin front of you is indeed a genuine pilot. Now a genuine pilot would not do crazy things, and as long as he's carrying a decent amount of stuff he might need, you should leave him alone and focus on other security holes outside the public eye.
I know its a nice show to almost strip down a pilot or cabin crew in front of the travelling public, but the gain from that investment in time and money doesn't really pay off in increased safety.
Just my view. Pilots are no Gods, certainly not. But sometimes they have to jump to a couple too many hoops to be able to execute their actual profession.
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I agree totally.
There does need to be a standard of security to be maintained though of all crews and engineers etc. It is with security towards airside employees, there is no thought what so ever put behind any of the measures.
There is a certain amount of respect in other countries though for your position. On the continent for example Italy and Spain, security will generally use a bit of common sense when you pass through. They realise that if you wanted to commit a grievous act, you could.
I had a discussion with security from a UK airport a couple of days ago."Ooooohhhhh do you know that you have a fork in your bag? We will have to take that off you."
Erm, of cause I know I packed it with my food.
I continued to ask if the security guard would come up to the flight deck and stop me pointing the aircraft at terra firma. Also would the guard help me to decide if I should use the fork as a weapon against myself or the axe that sits beside me in the flight deck?
I kept my fork.
Common sense seems to be something of a past generation.
There does need to be a standard of security to be maintained though of all crews and engineers etc. It is with security towards airside employees, there is no thought what so ever put behind any of the measures.
There is a certain amount of respect in other countries though for your position. On the continent for example Italy and Spain, security will generally use a bit of common sense when you pass through. They realise that if you wanted to commit a grievous act, you could.
I had a discussion with security from a UK airport a couple of days ago."Ooooohhhhh do you know that you have a fork in your bag? We will have to take that off you."
Erm, of cause I know I packed it with my food.
I continued to ask if the security guard would come up to the flight deck and stop me pointing the aircraft at terra firma. Also would the guard help me to decide if I should use the fork as a weapon against myself or the axe that sits beside me in the flight deck?
I kept my fork.
Common sense seems to be something of a past generation.
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Well.... I'm very impressed. An MP who has read these pages, listened and understood. An MP who obviously understands the concepts of probability and consequences within the context of risk management. I'll be interested to read the original source of this article (hey, he's actually quoted ME ).
Now, if you guys can spare him, can we have this bloke to be Prime Minister of Australia, please?
).Now, if you guys can spare him, can we have this bloke to be Prime Minister of Australia, please?
Last edited by Ron & Edna Johns; 14th Aug 2006 at 13:38.
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Standardised crew ID is not that easy to introduce as it may look. It is no problem to agree on size/layout, but it hardly makes any sense without possibility for security staff to check it onsite through some kind of wordlwide database, and introduction of such database can take ages especially if it needs to be truly worldwide.
I hate to say this but it takes a couple of weeks to become a cabin crew, and cabin crew have access to cockpit... Same goes for airside handling staff. Situation is different for the pilots (as they are in cockpit and have controls anyway) but would it make sense to make different security rules for ATPL holders and all others? And how a deadheading crews should be treated then?
I hate to say this but it takes a couple of weeks to become a cabin crew, and cabin crew have access to cockpit... Same goes for airside handling staff. Situation is different for the pilots (as they are in cockpit and have controls anyway) but would it make sense to make different security rules for ATPL holders and all others? And how a deadheading crews should be treated then?
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Originally Posted by Ron & Edna Johns
Well.... I'm very impressed. An MP read these pages, listened and understood, has responded (actually quoted ME) and makes incredible sense? Unheard of here downunder.
Can we have this bloke to be Prime Minister of Australia, please?
Can we have this bloke to be Prime Minister of Australia, please?
Edit:
http://www.libdems.org.uk/party/peop...mbit-opik.html
On April 13th 1998 Lembiut came close to death in a near fatal para-gliding accident. He fell some 80 feet onto a Welsh mountain in his constituency, and broke his back in 12 places, as well as his ribs, sternum and jaw. This near-death experience has caused him to take a keen interest in the Spinal Injuries Association, of which he is a member. Despite the accident, he continues with his interest in aviation. He holds a pilot's licence and speaks for British Gliding in the House of Commons. Lembit also rides motorcycles and lobbies for the interests of bikers when occasion arises.
Last edited by egbt; 14th Aug 2006 at 14:35.
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At last, a voice of reason in public from one of our politicians who echos the sentiments voiced against the beaurocratic deaf ears by flightcrew since September 11th. Mr Opik should be encouraged to pursue our case onto the floor of the House of Commons (as and when MPs return from hols) where our daily farcical experiences can be revealed to the public and given the full blast of publicity. So, let's keep the ball rolling and get the whole question of our place in the security system well and truly established - as part of it (and treated accordingly) and not part of the problem.
Well done Mr Opik - and shame on BALPA for its gutless performance over the past 5 years on this matter.
Well done Mr Opik - and shame on BALPA for its gutless performance over the past 5 years on this matter.
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I'm flying in to work out of Stansted soon, does anyone know if they allow cellphones and laptops and the like again or what's the story there? I'm not to thrilled about leaving my phone since I couldn't be reached if they call me in from standby.
Grandpa Aerotart
I cleared through a crew checkpoint/security room this morning at LHR...as a foreign longhaul crew memmber.
I will say up front that the security staff were wonderfully understanding of our frustrations...they seemed to, for perhaps the first time in my experience of this security lunacy, TRULY empathise.
However.
We were not allowed to have glasses cases in our nav bags...they had to be removed to our hold baggage...no cigarettes or lighters. No laptops for the cabin crew they also to be put in hold luggage.
My nav bag was 'searched' but no mention made of my Laptop (other than it went through the xray separately) Mobile phone, torch, car keys (including immobiliser fob)....just my spare reading glasses in their small tube style case and my sunnies case of the soft fake leather variety which opens up across the top had to be transfered into my hold luggage...interesting she missed another spare set
To her credit when I muttered "for fecks sake!" under my breath she merely, quietly, asked me not to swear at her...I appologised and assured her it was not directed at her in any way shape or form.
The other tech crew member's wife was travelling and she was forced to buy a small case in the terminal into which her mobile and handbag were placed to go in the hold...she just barely managed to hold on to her wallet with all her cash, credit cards etc....GBP20 for the new bag
If they had tried to take my pen, mobile, laptop etc then I was off back to the pub. But they did not and I was so impressed with their general demeanor I felt compelled to thank them all and wish them a nice day...that is definately a first when it comes to security personel. More usually I smile through gritted teeth and leave quickly before I drop myself in it with the fleet office.
While our reading/sun glass glasses were deemed potentially deadly dangerous items I, once again, took my seat at the controls of 185000 kg of aeroplane,people and fuel and managed to restrain myself from taking the crash axe to all and sundry prior to rolling inverted and diving into the channel...and they even gave us metal knives and forks to eat our crew meal with
Well done to the T2 crew security people you deserve a pat on the back....to the utter morons who think up this **** I wouldn't pi$$ on you if you were on fire
I will say up front that the security staff were wonderfully understanding of our frustrations...they seemed to, for perhaps the first time in my experience of this security lunacy, TRULY empathise.
However.
We were not allowed to have glasses cases in our nav bags...they had to be removed to our hold baggage...no cigarettes or lighters. No laptops for the cabin crew they also to be put in hold luggage.
My nav bag was 'searched' but no mention made of my Laptop (other than it went through the xray separately) Mobile phone, torch, car keys (including immobiliser fob)....just my spare reading glasses in their small tube style case and my sunnies case of the soft fake leather variety which opens up across the top had to be transfered into my hold luggage...interesting she missed another spare set
To her credit when I muttered "for fecks sake!" under my breath she merely, quietly, asked me not to swear at her...I appologised and assured her it was not directed at her in any way shape or form.
The other tech crew member's wife was travelling and she was forced to buy a small case in the terminal into which her mobile and handbag were placed to go in the hold...she just barely managed to hold on to her wallet with all her cash, credit cards etc....GBP20 for the new bag
If they had tried to take my pen, mobile, laptop etc then I was off back to the pub. But they did not and I was so impressed with their general demeanor I felt compelled to thank them all and wish them a nice day...that is definately a first when it comes to security personel. More usually I smile through gritted teeth and leave quickly before I drop myself in it with the fleet office.
While our reading/sun glass glasses were deemed potentially deadly dangerous items I, once again, took my seat at the controls of 185000 kg of aeroplane,people and fuel and managed to restrain myself from taking the crash axe to all and sundry prior to rolling inverted and diving into the channel...and they even gave us metal knives and forks to eat our crew meal with
Well done to the T2 crew security people you deserve a pat on the back....to the utter morons who think up this **** I wouldn't pi$$ on you if you were on fire
I really hate to state the obvious but, it seems its necessary. Anyone who is intending to martyr himself with the contents of his hand baggage will be equally happy to martyr himself with his hold (checked in ) baggage which is not as intensively checked.
Where is this in securities calculations? Obviously, lets give the flightcrew a hard time as thats what everyone is giving us!!
Where is this in securities calculations? Obviously, lets give the flightcrew a hard time as thats what everyone is giving us!!
Originally Posted by BusyB
I really hate to state the obvious but, it seems its necessary. Anyone who is intending to martyr himself with the contents of his hand baggage will be equally happy to martyr himself with his hold (checked in ) baggage which is not as intensively checked.
(1) Still very extensively checked, they just aren't interested in hand-held weapons.
(2) Not accessible for him or her to do anything with (bear in mind that he's already been relieved of anything resembling a remote control)
(3) In a separate hold designed so that any fire or explosion should not impinge upon either the pressurised cabin, or any primary structure or systems.
This doesn't take away from the very valid points that aircrew don't need a bomb or nailfile to kill everybody on the aeroplane.
G
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Originally Posted by BusyB
I really hate to state the obvious but, it seems its necessary. Anyone who is intending to martyr himself with the contents of his hand baggage will be equally happy to martyr himself with his hold (checked in ) baggage which is not as intensively checked.
To get an IED that will actually go off into the hold requires it to be smuggled all the way into the hold whilst fully assembled and ready to detonate.
The current measures are designed to stop people from smuggling stuff on board that is otherwise unable to be identified/differentiated from normal organic liquids. These bits themselves look innocuous and only form part of an operationally ready IED anyway. Someone else has to smuggle the other parts (detonator & timer) on board and they then have to be assembled whilst on board.
Three martyrs smuggling single and otherwise innocuous looking pieces of an IED was easier to pull off under the security regime that existed last week than one martyr with a fully completed and functional one already in his hold loaded suitcase.
None of this makes any difference to my ability to wreak havoc with the 60 tonnes of guided missile under my command without the need for an IED whether smuggled whole, assembled on board or anything else you care to mention.
I feel I should be trusted. Simple as that.
If I am not, then why do they let me fly the darned things?
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" If I am not, then why do they let me fly the darned things? "
And even more important how long is it going to be before no self respecting crew mamber " wants " to fly the damn things?
The inmates seem to be running the asylum in todays world of aviation.
Chuck E.
And even more important how long is it going to be before no self respecting crew mamber " wants " to fly the damn things?
The inmates seem to be running the asylum in todays world of aviation.
Chuck E.
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Originally Posted by Nearly Nigel
I feel I should be trusted. Simple as that.
If I am not, then why do they let me fly the darned things?
If I am not, then why do they let me fly the darned things?
Its time to talk to our unions, representatives and media. They either trust us or not. If not then I can get a job anywhere. They can take the train or ship to vacation for a while then bet there will be a massive change of heart!
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It's NOT Personal!
I sometime can't believe some of the things posted both on this thread. Guys and Gals - it's not personal - nobody want to be screened at security - it's not a slur on your fine upstanding ethics - it's not that everyone wants to demean you because "You're a pilot" or "You're aircrew" - it's not lets bring them down a peg or two.
In three words - IT'S NOT PERSONAL
The Governments of UK, US , Sinagapore and India have all determined that additional requirements for security are needed and have mandated that this should occur as additional screening and restrictions on cabin baggage
The next time you "fang off" at the person accepting luggage, a ground staff member, security screener or your ops people, just remember it is building the animosity you so vocally believe has been inflicted on you.
Everyone in the airline industry is in the same flooding boat and it would help if EVERYONE bails the water out.
In three words - IT'S NOT PERSONAL
The Governments of UK, US , Sinagapore and India have all determined that additional requirements for security are needed and have mandated that this should occur as additional screening and restrictions on cabin baggage
The next time you "fang off" at the person accepting luggage, a ground staff member, security screener or your ops people, just remember it is building the animosity you so vocally believe has been inflicted on you.
Everyone in the airline industry is in the same flooding boat and it would help if EVERYONE bails the water out.
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Originally Posted by BigWhiteRat
In three words - IT'S NOT PERSONAL
The Governments of UK, US , Sinagapore and India have all determined that additional requirements for security are needed and have mandated that this should occur as additional screening and restrictions on cabin baggage.
The Governments of UK, US , Sinagapore and India have all determined that additional requirements for security are needed and have mandated that this should occur as additional screening and restrictions on cabin baggage.
I thought they were just being done to p*ss us off. I'm so relieved, now that I know there must be a good reason pilots aren't allowed to carry spectacle cases, or toffee crisps and totally reasurred that these perfectly reasonable measures are being implemented by the UK, US , Sinagapore and India. I shall look forward to the rest of the world joining in so that this totally ineffective and moronic bullsh*t system may at least be consistently appliedIn fact, Danny said it so much better than me:
It is high time that Balpa and our representatives exposed these sham security rules for what they are. Just some half witted mandarin making up petty and useless rules to justify their existence with equally inept and stupid people interpreting the rules without thought or regard for the effects they have. If we don't stop them now they will have done the terrorists job for them and they are jeopardising our jobs in the process.
This is not security. This is ineptitude and absolute dumbing down. They are as bad as the terrorists themselves and deserve nothing but contempt. Either we are trusted or we aren't.
(I wish I could write like that!)
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Many years ago my carrier showed a video of some jolly ol chap from LHR operations in our security class. He discussed the security issues in place at LHR and said the “Staff” knows the good guys from the bad guys when it comes to the crews. In the video he said the “Staff” was unable to differentiate between the carriers because the bad guy’s carriers would complain about how the “Staff” had handled their crews. So they treat everyone the same no matter the country of origin.
At the time it seemed fair but now it has gone to far. Getting the “Full Monty” every time I go to work was bad enough but now the lunacy of it all is beyond what a rational person should be expected to endure. The “Staff” at LHR and every other airport needs to have two security protocols for flight crews: one for the rouge nations and one for the civilized nations. If they know who the troublemakers are then the “Staff” should single them out for increased scrutiny.
I feel an ear infection coming on. I hope I get over it by Christmas.
At the time it seemed fair but now it has gone to far. Getting the “Full Monty” every time I go to work was bad enough but now the lunacy of it all is beyond what a rational person should be expected to endure. The “Staff” at LHR and every other airport needs to have two security protocols for flight crews: one for the rouge nations and one for the civilized nations. If they know who the troublemakers are then the “Staff” should single them out for increased scrutiny.
I feel an ear infection coming on. I hope I get over it by Christmas.