Airport Security (Merged) - Effects on Crew/Staff

[Danny]

Once again... the call should be for proper profiling. Highly trained individuals working for a government agency who question each passenger and look at their tickets who can then assess whether they need further questioning. There are many variables that could cause the profiler to require the passenger (or crew member for that matter) to be taken aside for for further, more detailed questioning by a more experienced profiler who would assess the risks, including whether the person needed extra screening or should even be allowed to fly.

Unfortunately, we have heard many times that this is not politically correct, is very time consuming and would cause chaos at busy airports. Errrr... Hellooo! The current fiasco and chaos is caused precisely because the mandarins who make the decisions have deemed that the current method of blanket screening is the only way to go.

I'd hazard a guess that if we'd had profiling in place before the current Muppet show they'd have been able to pay for the whole setting up exercise and a few years worth of running it instead of the massive losses and costs that we have seen because of the bureaucratic incompetence and failure in communications that are a major part of the reason we have the current chaos.

[Hahn]

Result of my last positioning: because I carried toothpaste and a modern car key, I had to check in my flight kit. This was searched manually - the entire contents where upside down - and my pocket pc is not working since then. But I feel much safer now!

[Airbrake]

I am sure we can all give examples of the ridiculous security checks we as crew have to go through. However, I really do think it is crazy that as a pilot I have to walk through security in my socks, just incase I have some type of device in my shoes! It is similar to the tanker driver who had a bottle of Ribenna confiscated from him as he drove 45 000 litres of jet fuel through an airport gate.
The lunatics have taken over.

[jackharr]

I could never have imagined I would say that I am in agreement with the Ryanair boss over ANYTHING, but he is talking a lot of sense over this security issue.

Thank goodness I retired some 8 years ago before all this nonesense started (ex Air UK/ KLM UK - 146 pilot)

Jack Harrison

[Two's in]

However discretely profiling is conducted, it inevitably reveals to all and sundry where the perceived threat lies. Clearly this is not an issue for Nation states like Israel, but if you do not have the moral fibre or self determination as a Government to stand up and be counted as to where you believe your main threat lies, it is a non-starter. Years of pandering to people's rights instead of their responsibilities, makes it very difficult to change course mid-stream yet by understanding the psychological make-up of the likely threat, profiling actually starts to focus in on the cause, instead of just trying to deal with the effect after the event. It is totally in the hands of this Government to begin to deal with this problem, for whatever reason, they choose not to.

[GreatCircle]

Going through the screening at YYZ T3 at the week's beginning, I was questioned by a CATSA screener, who could barely speak English. Then she proceeded to take my flight bag apart, apparently looking for a small bottle - which wasn't there.

We are trusted - can you imagine what they'd do to us if we weren't ?

[A2QFI]

Car Keys?

As at 2030 Friday18th August what is the situation re car keys with a 'remote' locking facility - I can't get clear information on any site, including DofT? Thanks for any info!

[ShotOne]

Good on BALPA for kicking off this summit -lets hope it comes off.

Lets hear from these faceless "experts" who are wrecking our industry. Some of their pronouncements just defy common sense. Does it really boost confidence in security for the Captain to arrive on board clutching a clear plastic bag? For most pax it just highlights that the regime is being run by morons.

[biddedout]

It reminds me of the Father Ted sketch where Dougal is stuck on the Milk float which is primed to explode below 4 mph and the other priests spend hours planning a rescue. Come to think of it, Ted and Dougal could be working for the UK authorities as we speak. Or maybe Father Jack is in charge.

[bird dog]

Toothpaste

Who is the brilliant mind that thinks removing toothpaste from the cockpit will stop somebody to fly a big jet directly into central London or another place if he/she wants to?By the way, what about the axe, is it less dangerous than toothpaste? pathetic!!!

[PPRuDe]

RISk Assessment

with the short notice implementation of restrictions being implemented as part of pre-planned contingency plan i would be interested to see what safety analysis was conducted.

for example what is the risk factor in confining thousands of laptops to the aircraft hold and...

what percentage of them were part of the 4 imillion (with potential battery problems that could burst into flames) that were being recalled by Dell

Have to say BAW did well, i would never have have thought of losing 10000 bags as a way of mitigating/reducing this risk

PPRuDe

[Chimbu chuckles]

The point MUST be driven home that searching tech crew in ANY way, shape or form is a COMPLETE waste of time.

The security muppets could do a strip search complete with body cavity inspection on every pilot and it would not make ONE IOTA of difference. It would NOT contribute in ANY meaningful way to enhanced security.

If BALPA is unable to get this most basic point across there is simply no hope of common sense prevailing and resources being applied appropriately.

The current security 'system' as it applies to aircrew is FARCICAL.

We go through 'security' and have our lighters, mobile phones, car keys and eye glass cases removed from our nav bags and locked into our hold bag and then take our seats 4' from a crash axe, truncheon and passenger restraint tyes and are then given knives and forks to eat our meal with...for gods sake!!!

What happens when one of the 007 pilots from a US carrier goes through security at LHR...they take his car keys off him but he gets to keep his 9mm?

[MrBenip]

Just passed through security with my f/o at MAN who had a "trolly bag" i.e. bag with handle and wheels. We were operating crew passing through normal pax channel. He was allowed through but because mine was a normal (small) suitcase I was'nt.

A security lady took pity on me and ushered the both of us to an obscure staff channel that i've never used before, again my f/o passed through with no questions asked. Because mine was not a "trolly case" I was asked if I had a wash bag in the case and I said 'yes'. Then you have toothpaste then? - well yes I said with a clean smile! At that point I was made to go to the check-in desk and I had to check my bag in the hold! Gotta get my case some stick-on wheels!!! (my f/o's toothpaste must be safe in a case with wheels!)

- So, I'll just sit on my flight deck and pick my teeth with the pointy end of the Crash Axe! Has the security staff we rely on really gone !^$(*@! MAD?

THIS HAS GOT TO BE SORTED OUT!

[Ignition Override]

Good luck over there.
Danny, who are reportedly among the best security people at 'cultural profiling', and especially for terrorists who are trained or originate in the Middle East or southwestern Asia?

There is no doubt that Israel's El Al airlines has never suffered a hijacking.
To be quite frank and to the point, why not have a contract with some El Al or Israeli Army officials who can train selected and experienced airport security staff or even certain policemen to work in short shifts at the security checkpoints? Are these skills so difficult or too subtle to teach that police in other areas of the world could not find it worth their time? Maybe home-grown pride is an obstacle.

This might have benefited the US several years ago. Although I'm referring to observations inside an airport, an FBI lady knew that something was rather odd about a foreign "pilot" who only wanted to learn to fly a simulator enroute-but not take off or fly any approaches. Her supervisors told her to forget about it. Maybe if a man had expressed the same concerns, a much larger investigation might have taken place? This was not long before 9/11. We had vast problems between and inside of so many bumbling bureaucracies. Many are still with us (Katrina...either the Army Corps of Engineers or the state of Lousiana etc consulted with the Dutch flood control and engineering experts after the nightmare...good timing guys).

Why must so many nations learn the hard way (despite the recent outstanding work by police in Britain) to identify subtleties in body language which are learned among a foreign (and domestic) culture and family? How many non-Muslim Britains are quite fluent in Arabic, Farsi or the language(s) of Pakistan? If the Israelis have the best people, despite the fact that we can't convert to their methods of subjecting each passenger to a 2-hour check-in and a detailed interview/interrogation, could we all reap large benefits from highly-skilled security staff after they train with the top experts?

I could easily be wrong, but Israeli security forces appear to be experts with both the mentality and the culture(s) from which many of these terrorists originate. Apart from that, the US and the UK have so many people who are bi- or tri-lingual and after a suitable background check (there "lies the rub"), could some of these help identify subtle but key characteristics based upon underground slang expressions or body language?

This was featured in either the "New York Times" or the "Wall Street Journal": one problem with the many thousands of CIA documents (mostly in Arabic and Farsi) which are UNtranslated and must be shredded after a short while is that not enough translators exist to tackle the immense, highly labor-intensive workloads. The amount of lost information is staggering (is the case in the UK?). Background checks or total fluency seem to be the problems. So many people have relatives in other countries and very many applicants cannot be trusted.

Ironically, the largest US terrorist attack before 9/11 took place in Oklahoma City and the mass murderer was a young caucasian guy from upstate NY. He had served in the Army in Desert Storm in '91. Many people in Chechnya appear to also be caucasian. Many are Muslim, which by itself means little, but maybe the grievances among those terrorists are only against the Russians? Some of the trouble makers in Chechnya appear to come from other distant countries.

[A2QFI]

Carry - on Size, car keys, Mobile phones

There is an article about these matters in today's DT which is a bit strange. On the route allegedly at the highest risk of terrorist attack there is no reduction in the size of permitted carry on cases - makes one wonder what is the exact safety thinking behind the reduction that has been applied elsewhere. Also no mention, one way or the other, of mobile phones or car keys with remote fobs. It would be a pain to get to security and find they are banned when they are not mentioned, one way or the other, in any current official information handouts!

[bacardi walla]

I notice that whilst the UK was "allegedly" about to be the starting point of attacks on USA and is now being subjected to "tighter" security rules, the clown who "allegedly" runs this country is keeping a low profile. Is he still lurking on Cliff's island

[brakedwell]

Sandra Laville
Saturday August 19, 2006
The Guardian
Nine days ago Paul Stephenson, the deputy commissioner of the Metropolitan police, told the public his officers had thwarted a plot to commit "mass murder on an unimaginable scale".
It was an apocalyptic scenario challenged at the time by journalists, who forced an admission that what was meant by these words was "on a scale never before witnessed in Britain", reducing the potential death toll from tens of thousands to hundreds. Today 23 suspects, two of them women, are being held on suspicion of plotting to commit terrorist offences. While police interrogate them, there are many unanswered questions.

Was there any plot at all?

The laws on contempt of court, designed to ensure defendants have a fair trial, make it difficult for counter-terrorism officials to answer this question openly, but security sources have endorsed information coming out of the US as accurate. It is clear that the security services have collected a vast amount of surveillance material over the past year, which they claim points to a plot in the making.
The original tipoff came from a Muslim informant, thought to be close to one of those arrested. In a long surveillance operation, the security services watched suspects at their homes and offices, in meetings they attended and at their mosques and gyms. The operation involved tracing the money that went in and out of their bank accounts and involved the Pakistani security services.

What physical evidence has been gathered?

Officially police will not confirm that any material has been recovered. Sources have told the BBC a suitcase containing bomb components was recovered from woodland being searched in High Wycombe. The BBC also reported last night that police had found martyr videos on laptops in the course of searches. Reports that a gun was discovered in the same woods remain unconfirmed.
The home secretary, John Reid, said this week that "material of a substantial" nature had emerged in the searches of 49 properties in High Wycombe, east London and Birmingham.
The Guardian has established that scientists at the government's forensic explosives laboratory at Fort Halstead, Kent, are examining substances which have been seized during the searches.

What were the explosives at the centre of the alleged plot?

Police sources have confirmed that the alleged plot involved the use of TATP, triacetone triperoxide, which was to be made up from liquids. This has led to speculation that peroxide, acetone and sulphuric acid might have been disguised as bottles of drink to get through hand baggage checks. Forensic explosives experts say if this was the case the liquids would have had to be mixed on the plane to attain the crystallised TATP explosive.
Gerry Murray, of the Forensic Science Agency in Northern Ireland, believes this would be very difficult, particularly if carried out in the toilet of a passenger jet. The liquids have to be kept at freezing point when they are mixed and the TATP crystals must be dried before being ignited, a process which could take several hours.
Some 250g (9oz) of solid TATP would be needed for a substantial explosion, but Mr Murray said if the individual had never made the explosive before he would need a great deal of luck to manufacture it on a plane. Another theory is that pre-made explosives would have been hidden in the false bottom of plastic drinks bottles to foil hand luggage checks.

What can we read into the fact that no one has been charged yet?

Very little. The police and the home secretary have indicated that they believe they have arrested about 19 of the main suspects. Under anti-terrorism legislation, officers are allowed to question suspects for 28 days if approved by a judge, and it is likely the police will want to use the full period before charging anyone. They are unlikely to bring charges against anyone until they have completed thorough searches, which have been going on at 49 separate locations. Anti-terrorism officers will be liaising with the Crown Prosecution Service.
It is likely also that a handful, about five or six, of the suspects will be released without charge.

Was it really necessary to impose such strict security measures at British airports?

It seems unlikely. The threat level in the UK was raised to critical, which means an attack is imminent, after the arrest of what Mr Reid said were all the "main suspects".
Given that, it seems the measures forced upon British airports for several days were unnecessary. Police sources and the government indicated that if they were looking for anyone else those individuals were peripheral to the inquiry. The argument that the disruption of such a plot might spark others to bring forward terrorist actions is debatable.
The security services allege that this was a very specific, well-planned plot, which took nearly a year to put together. It seems unfeasible that others were planning to do the same thing in the same way.

[angelwings2006]

At MAN T1 staff security route they change their minds from day to day as to what you can and cant carry airside.
One day i wasnt able to take cigarettes/mobile/lighter/pen as expected and the next day i was.
Its becoming a joke i think.
If they are going to put these guidelines in place they should stick to them. ?

[Danny]

Nowhere did I say 'cultural' profiling. It is actually psychological profiling together with other intelligence. It doesn't take 2 hours per pax and it isn't run by the army.

The profiling takes place before you even get to the check-in desk. Again, I am not talking about the current farce where a minimum wage employee from a contracted security employment agency with two weeks or less training and about as much background intelligence as a "breaking news" headline on CNN performing the usual ritual we see these days at all long haul check-ins.

A profiler goes along the queue, if there is one, after having observed the people and looks at the tickets and watches the demeanour of the pax. There is some information on the ticket and there are pertinent questions that can be asked which, along with the response and the reactions of the pax will determine whether this person safe to continue to check-in and on to the normal screening of baggage and pockets. This normally only takes a minute or less and there will be several profilers if it is a busy flight.

Should anything alert the profiler then he or she call upon a supervisory profiler who will take the pax off to a separate place away from the rest of the pax and will be interviewed in more depth and possibly subjected to a more thorough screening. The original profiler will be able to go back to their duties and help to expedite the process for the other pax.

It has usually meant that pax have to arrive up to 3 hours before a long-haul flight which aside from normal technical and operational issues usually gets away on time. Of course these flights still operate their check-in to the same timetable that we do now. There will always be people that don't allow enough time for everything and are in a rush. Most long-haul check-ins close-out about an hour before STD which still gives the profilers enough time to deal with latecomers and they will be well enough trained to appreciate all the tricks in the book including someone trying to ruch them in their job.

The problem is that the bean-counters who run the country have decided that everything should be run by private companies who will have made the lowest bid. What we end up with is people who are paid a pittance with minimal training and the most basic of background intelligence about what they are looking for.

What is needed is a government department which recruits high calibre people with the right kind of educational background and probably having been through military intelligence or security services training who are then trained up. They have the backing of the governments own intelligence agencies and are briefed accordingly.

Here in the UK we have privately owned airport security services who recruit at barely above the minimum wage and little more than the most basic of education is a requirement. Well, of course that's cheaper. All these people have to do is count and pick every x pax for a pat down and a bag search or else they have to watch a screen as bag after bag passes endlessly in front of them looking for a shadow or an outline which they may or may not see.

In the USA it is even more of a farce. never mind the latest screw-up at the Virginia Tri-State airport. The US actually set up a government department and has invested billions of dollars in a security screening system. Duh. They could have done the sensible thing and set up profilers which would have required less people but more highly trained with all the back-up that would e needed for less money probably. Again, a typical bean-counter farce which proves they know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

As far as crew are concerned, whether they have a dedicated crew security screening area or not, they would be asked a few questions by a profiler before putting their bags through for check-in or else when passing through their separate security screening area. It isn't rocket science and is certainly doable. Having operated through Tel-Aviv quite a few times after night stopping there over the years, even as a foreign crew trying to get to our aircraft was never a problem and always took no more time and more often than not, less time to get through the security than it does here in the UK and most certainly less time than it does in the USA.

So, anyone trying to jump on the PC bandwagon and trying to make out that profiling is anti-cultural or racist has almost certainly no idea what they are talking about. Whilst no doubt there would be a preponderance of middle eastern looking types more likely to be pulled for secondary profiling, that is inevitable. However, we all know that one doesn't have to be middle eastern looking to be dangerous. There are enough people of ALL nationalities, races and creeds who could be recruited by the terrorists that the profiling would be intelligence led and practised on known variables which include demeanour and response to questioning.

After all, anyone and I include pilots, would show certain traits if they were knowingly about to commit mass murder and about to snuff themselves out. Also, in the often used excuse about being under duress to just pass something through to someone else airside, the same applies. If your family were being held hostage or to ransom in order that you were about to assist in a terrorist act, a trained profiler would be looking at your demeanour and your response to certain questions.

Nothing will ever be 100% secure but profiling is the best way forward. As has been said over and over again on these pages... It's not what someone can get through the x-ray machine or scanner but the person who is intent on committing harm getting on board that is the problem.

We don't need all these delays and stupid security procedures that are throttling our industry which in turn is making travellers lives a misery and threatening our jobs. We need the government to invest properly but all we have is the Muppet show and a lot of low-paid 'security' workers rummaging through our bags and confiscating candy from kids.

[daz211]

I dont see a problem with profiling at all
what is wrong with cultural profiling ?

It happens all the time

schools profile for their main threat / child abusers
banks profile for criminals

my point is you profile for what the threat is at the time
of the threat

this could be any person of any colour at any given time
muslims would want to be safe when flying so why
would they mind being profiled when the next threat comes
from another nation then profiling would be on another
culture

as far as I see this country has become to soft in
not trying to upset other nations / cultures
we cant fly flags in our towns
we cant sing some songs to our children
we cant say words that might affend
or tell jokes
what is this country coming to

if you dont want to be profiled dont fly
(thats to all) black white red green and any other colour i might have missed out sorry i didnt mean to miss any colour out please dont be affended