Airport Security (Merged) - Effects on Crew/Staff

[GreatCircle]

Originally Posted by ivor toolbox

Ps .... pens now allowed as 'essential for our job', but still no toolboxes or engine oils,hydraulic oils,oxygen or nitrogen....ho hum!

You mean I went and spent $20 on cartons of pens for no reason ? I better get on ebay pronto.

And yes, if politics wasn't an absolute limiting factor on the ID discussion, a fine idea.

[Rivet gun]

Originally Posted by ivor toolbox

And finally IMHO, in UK, Airport Security should be taken back into a civil service function, with properly trained and educated screeners,rather than the low paid 'RentaGoon' we get now, and independant of any Airport 'management' whom think their interpretation of 'The Rules' is more restrictive so it must be better.

Actually we could now have an excellent opportunity to push for this. I believe that there is a move to create a new integrated "border police" combining airport police, customs and immigration. The security screeners might need to be a separate (lower paid?) grade, but they could still come under the operational control of the border police in the same way that traffic wardens and PCSOs come under the control of the local police.

[groundhogbhx]

Don't forget the ground staff are getting hammered too. Last week they didn't let food through at all one morning delaying all the airside staff as they had to find somewhere secure to put it, or eat it, before going through. The result was that by 10.00 we were getting ready to walk out, just as the policy changed. We also have problems of staff not being able to bring radios through How are you supposed to keep in touch and get your flight out in reasonable time if you can't communicate. It seems that something changes every day, yesterday watches and belts were ok but today they have to go through the x-ray. I followed a crew through the other day that were told they couldn't take knives and forks through with them but spoons were ok, now maybe I'm missing the point here but I would have thought you could do as much damage or more with a spoon handle than you could with the prongs on a fork

[lexxity]

Furtheremore there are many pilots operaitng from UK bases who do not have aircrew ID cards because their securtiy checking is incomplete, nevertheless they can still operate for many months being allowed through security on the basis of their Pilot's licence and a passport.

Now that is the maddest thing I have read all day. I have just returned to work after maternity leave and my airside pass has been parked for the duration. My actual pass doesn't expire until next summer, so my employers sent me to the pass office with the appropriate letter to get my airside reactivated. Security have refused to do so because I have had too long off work and my company "haven't sorted it properly. Get them to call us." Madness.

[tristar500]

Groundhogbhx - WORD UP!!! I hear what youre saying. EDI has had the food problems too. Staff not allowed any food/drink through staff search area to go airside. Some dispatchers and groundstaff on double shifts, with their own prepared food, having to leave it in effect for the bin and go hungry until their employers 'kindly' agreed to provide them with refreshment vouchers (this lasted only a few hours and the offer was withdrawn...)

A captain even refused to fly his sector unless he was allowed to take his paracetamol with him... Stranger still, cabin crews (female) were prevented from taking makeup through

Its all gone a bit 'Pete-Tong'

[daz211]

Airlines Canx Flights

Would it not be a good idea for airlines such as BA and VS
to opp some of the flights from other south east airports
rather than canx them all together i understand that LHR
is getting snarled up so what would the problem be in
opp from lets say STN just for a few weeks

[sky9]

I would have thought that the question that really needs to be asked is what is the security vetting of the security staff at Heathrow?

I would have thought that MI5 have got their knickers in a twist on that one at the present time although the politicians and the press are strangely quiet.

[xetroV]

Originally Posted by juan post

Pilots and aircrew should expect no special treatment other than the ability to fast track a queue.

The only treatment that's being asked is for aircrew and groundcrew to be able to simply do their jobs. That requires a pen, for starters. And it requires controlling an aircraft that can potentially be used as a bomb, with or without a pen. If you can't grasp even that basic logic, then I sincerely pity you.

[daz211]

what i dont get is that the flight deck have full control of the
aircraft and they would not need gels or bombs to down an
aircraft
I say give em the sandwiches and as many pens as they want
there the last people i would want p*ss off

[Human Factor]

Originally Posted by daz211

what i dont get is that the flight deck have full control of the
aircraft and they would not need gels or bombs to down an
aircraft

You and every airline pilot in the UK.

[daz211]

what are your unions doing about all this ?

[Chilli Monster]

Only an idea but - why not carry a copy of the DFT statement with you and see what happens.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...pdf_612280.pdf

I've read it several times. It doesn't say Aircrew, it doesn't say Airside Workers.

It only says, in several places, Passengers.

So - why are any of us being subjected to this at all? Has nobody thought of pointing this out to the airports yet?

[LD Max]

Originally Posted by Chilli Monster

So - why are any of us being subjected to this at all? Has nobody thought of pointing this out to the airports yet?

Regardless of any public "statements", TRANSEC is responsible for Airport Security. The supposed procedure is outlined here.

But it doesn't work like this either.

[Deal or No deal]

Don't forget the ground staff are getting hammered too

Aren't they just!!

Delays have put everything out of sync, causing more delays as the normal working pattern of shifts doesn't cater for this.. Who wants to work overtime??? Hands up??

Food on Thursday was a BIG gripe..... Now allowed if it's solid..... Is butter or margerine solid?? Jam?? Sarnies getting through though!! Luckily!!

12 hours without food on hand in the 5 mins between a/c is a little unreal... Letting people go though, back to their cars to eat for half hour or so only added to the delays..... Ground crew generally don't get 'breaks', if there's no a/c needing attention, then you can sit!!! With such a backlog of a/c, you've no chance..

Purchasing food at airport prices, even with a bit of discount, would bankrupt anyone at any level!!

Plus, bags now weigh a little more, and there are more of them to process..... Check in takes a little longer, security screening, loading...
The belt system at CWL KEEPS throwing a wobbly... Every morning normally, but now?? Well I'm supprised it copes at all!!! Having an airport duty manager stare at the belt backloged for an hour doesn't make a shed of difference!! Why they do it I don't know.... Makes them look pro-active???? SPEND SOME MONEY ON A BETTER SYSTEM!!

CWL today have banned anything to do with smoking!! It was ok on thursday, friday and saturday to take cigarets, tobaco and cigars through, but come today, OH NO!! Yet some got through..... security can literaly open a door 10 feet away from them and see the smoking area in bagage..... How many people smoking there I wonder???!!!!

The effectiveness of this new screening is unbalanced and changes per shift..... A little thought goes a long way!!!

So does everything come off a vehicle going airside to be screened?? I think not.... How do you x-ray or taste test de-icing fluid on an artic?? Thankfully we are a few months ahead of that scenario!!!

Security have it hard at the mo, they're only doing their job as told... So respect to them for taking our flack day in day out!!!

Back to the grind! Looking forward to the day that a/c are grounded coz engineers can't get the liquids / gasses needed.. And suddenly, within an hour, the rules will change..... again!!!!

[t-bag]

Sorry, to go backaway, the security "north side" at lgw refered to by 30W is through jubilee house and is done by securicor paid for, I believe by BA .... (not BAA security) possilbly hence the different attitude.I went through today with normal flight bag + lap top, no problem at all.

[Farty Flaps]

Tornado ,
Most downroute airports are operating normally.
To your satement add this.
Waiting for push at Man today a PIA 747 from Karachi pulls up and disgorges its pax , all with hand baggage as normal.
Wasnt one of the suspects arrested in Pakistan?The ones here mostly of pakistan origin. Most of my pax were palin old white hiloday makers that are clearly potential Terrorists
I conclude with...Whats the feckin point. This country is on its arse. Oh wait maybe it was only the vast majority of decent muslims that were on that flight.But wait a minute , what about the ordinary decent vast majority of english people dicked around for political gain.Plot ...My arse. Theyll all be out in a week.
Up side.The man security are generally being very reasonable at crew search, and its not their fault. I think i wont return with any hand baggage on my next flight or maybe i'll be held personnaly responsible for allowing a breach of uk aircraft security. The airport maybe foreign but the aircraft is british territory and you will be in command over britain in breach of the regs....watch your backs for the first scapegoat captain.

[Flap15Geardown]

The security staff were chatting yesterday while I was putting my shoes back on after the usual x-ray. They were saying how other staff were changing the proceedures as they were told about them while others were only implementing the changes once they had got it in writing No wonder there is so much uproar from the staff if things like that are going on.

Talking to some despatchers the other day and found out that one staff gate wouldn't let mobiles through and the other wouldn't let the girls bring perfume through. Answer was to drop what they could bring through in the office, go back and collect what was confiscated and come back through the other gate, what is the sense in that. Now, if they all worked to the same rules it would be easier to cope with but when they are all working differently and you don't know what you are going to get until you get to security it's hardly suprising that people are starting to lose their wrag. Lets hope that the down grade of security to severe will also inject a little common sense.

[Johnbr]

arrived in N.Y. JFK few hours ago and everything semms to be as usual...No stress,everyone going through immigration very swiftly,secutity agents not seen anywhere,no weapons insight...very normal indeed...Out of MIA,coleagues told me all as usual...weird...Notebooks,cellphones,pens,palmtops,flightbag s all allowed...At least for flightcrew...

[Flight Training News]

Lembit Öpik MP comments on the alleged terrorist plot to attack commercial airliners

Dear PPRuNe,

The newspaper Flight Training News will be printing shortly, but we considered that this article by Lembit Öpik MP should be made public asap. We apologise for the length of this post, but feel your forum to be the most appropriate place to publish Lembit's comments prior to our newspaper print run, and believe your members will be interested to read what he has to say concerning the alleged terrorist plot to attack commercial airliners.

The article is reproduced below.

With best regards from Flight Training News.

Ban the flightdeck - Lembit Öpik MP

“In view of the present threat it would appear that the flight deck should not be allowed on the aircraft. The plane does not fly and everyone is safe. That is until a catering truck runs into it.” These are the words of a commercial pilot, expressing his feelings about the uncompromising new security rules imposed at Britain’s airports on 10th August this year. These rules were announced hours after claims that a plot for the destruction of around 10 civilian airliners scheduled to take-off from British airports loaded with passengers, fuel and crew, had been prevented. The news has widely covered the consequences on civilian air travel. The searching, checking and re-checking of people, possessions and baggage caused the cancellation of 30% of journeys. Hundreds of thousands of passengers waited for hours, many even for days, as flights failed to take-off, or departed with only a tiny number of passengers. Fare paying passengers were consigned to tents and over-crowded terminal buildings in scenes reminiscent of refugees fleeing a war zone.

Those lucky enough to get on the planes couldn’t take on normal hand baggage; only what they were permitted to carry in demeaning see through plastic bags. Whether or not there WAS a terrorist plot – and at time of writing (August 14th 2006) this is far from clear – there’s no doubt the threat of terrorism partially paralysed our airways by the resulting security measures. Now here’s the crazy bit. Initially, these same regulations were applied to the aircrew. Almost everything imposed on passengers was also imposed on the people who were flying them. That’s right. The folks on the flight deck were being barred from carrying anything from their laptops to beverages, food, even their car immobilisers. One pilot has observed: “All my notes are on my laptop and my PDA. No paper manuals anymore! What about torches for walk-arounds? Hearing protection? The yellow – “don’t hit me” – jacket? The TWO pairs of glasses? Pens? Wizz-wheel? Calculators? All needed…” but mainly banned, unless the flight crew were willing to negotiate, in the hope that the security staff would see sense.

Think about it. In August 2006, anyone in the UK getting on a plane was being treated as if they might be a terrorist, regardless of their role, their credentials and whether they were just along for the ride or actually flying the plane! I’m sure you’ve already seen the flaw in this. To quote another aircrew professional: “If the crew wanted to do some serious injury I seem to remember (they made a film about this, unless that is outlawed now) that pointing the nose at the ground and trying to break the sound barrier makes a big hole.” Yup. You don’t need a torch to torch the aircraft, an inescapable fact which makes the restrictions on aircrew relatively absurd. The pilots weren’t being allowed to take their car immobiliser on board in case they used it to commit an act of terrorism, but were trusted with the lives of 500 people seven miles up at 550 mph with nobody to check up on them.

What happens next? Well, hopefully common sense prevails, with a continuing reduction of the rules imposed on aircrew. But even though this now appears to be happening, but there’s no guarantee that this indicates a more measured approach will be taken again in the future. Also, there’s a real danger that those of us who fly the small stuff may end up attracting the same attentions as the big jets. I mean, why think the security crackdown will stop in the big cockpits? Surely the small ones are a risk as well? It’s easy to see such “mission creep” thinking invading all aspects of aviation, until we spend more time proving we’re not intending to do something stupid than we do proving we can fly safely in the first place. They’re already talking about giving would-be pilots mental tests to see if a terrorist lurks inside.

Now think this through, and be blunt about this. What’s more dangerous - a runaway Piper Cherokee or a runaway train? A crashing Cessna 150, or a crashing bus? A crazed microlight pilot, or a crazy ship’s captain? The unavoidable logic of the ever-tightening noose of security leads directly and quickly into a police state where we have to prove our mental credentials before we are allowed to do anything which could be used to harm anyone else. And that doesn’t leave a lot, does it? Certainly, anyone who buys fertiliser should be checked out – they might not growing turnips – they might be building a bomb. And how about that chap who’s just bought a gallon of petrol in a can? Refilling his lawn mower… or preparing Molotov cocktails in the garden shed? And hey, the local radio control aircraft modellers could easily be constructing a miniature squadron to flower bomb the local traffic warden. Even in the darkest days of the Cold War between America and Russia, such paranoia didn’t persistently invade the everyday lives of people in the West. What has happened – though for understandable reasons, it must be said - is a very real compromising of our civil liberties. That’s because politicians have used only one defence against terrorism: attempting to prevent the opportunity to terrorise. But to guarantee no more air terrorism using this route, you really would have to ban the flightdeck.

The answer is not to abandon airport security measures. The answer lies in risk management. Proportionate response. Informed decision-making. Manageable measures which balance the risk and the cost. Risk management, not risk elimination, is the sensible approach. For example, flight crew should to be allowed to do the job they’ve spent years training for. Decision-makers should apply different regs to pilots. Light aviation must not be singled out simply because they’re up in the sky.

And there’s another thing. The strategy itself. How on earth can the Government seriously believe that, simply by trying to apprehend the terrorists, they’ll remove the underlying terrorist threat? The lessons in Northern Ireland showed that defusing the motives of terrorism largely delivered more progress than 30 years of counter-terrorism did on its own. Both elements were important, but with international terrorism, Ministers are only concerned with checking everyone who gets on a plane rather than figuring out why some people board for the wrong reasons. Dissolving motives is not giving in to terrorists, but offers a way to truly reduce the chance of an attack in the first place. I know Ministers read Flight Training News. So, here’s a direct appeal to you. Please, before “next time,” keep talking to aircrew, who take life and death decisions in the flightdeck throughout their working lives. Make realistic plans with airports and airlines NOW, not during the next alleged plot, when the temptation for knee-jerk over-reaction is obviously greater.

Long term, the solution isn’t found in turning Heathrow into an overcrowded shanty town of frustrated travellers, let alone extending that to the smaller airfields of Britain. It needs to be much more sophisticated than that. Sure, it’s scary to manage risk, but politics IS hard, and the challenge is having proportionate responses, before managing public expectations regarding risk. And for goodness sake, look at the motives of the terrorists, not at every pilot and passenger as if they have motives to terrorise. Another professional sums it up: “those of us who fly long haul will not be allowed to take anything such as shampoo, toothpaste, deodorant etc. We will not be allowed to take our car keys if they have electronic fobs. The obvious anomaly in all this is that once we have left those things behinds, we are then given control of a multi million dollar potential weapon of mass destruction and trusted to keep it secure and operate it safely.”

No pilot – professional, non-professional or student – is more likely to do evil just because they’ve got a flying bag in the cockpit. So, before Government again acts in haste, tell us either why banning pilot bags in cockpits and extra searches on aircrew is vital, or be a bit smarter in a crisis and preserve their freedom to do their job.

[captjns]

Any word on overnight bags for crews in addition to their flight bags?