Airport Security (Merged) - Effects on Crew/Staff
A Horrifying Prospect
When will they outlaw battery powered wristwatches for crew and passengers alike?
I predict that the day will come when planeloads of completely naked passengers ( perhaps shackled to their seats ) and crew depart while towing the baggage, cargo and parents with small children and deadly baby formula in a glider or blimp streamed at a safe distance behind the aircraft.
While we will, perhaps, be moderately repulsed by all the naked flesh we will all feel safe I am sure.
You heard it here first.
( The above is an attempt at humour during these trying times and I apologise if it is not seen as such )
I predict that the day will come when planeloads of completely naked passengers ( perhaps shackled to their seats ) and crew depart while towing the baggage, cargo and parents with small children and deadly baby formula in a glider or blimp streamed at a safe distance behind the aircraft.
While we will, perhaps, be moderately repulsed by all the naked flesh we will all feel safe I am sure.
You heard it here first.
( The above is an attempt at humour during these trying times and I apologise if it is not seen as such )
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 331
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem is, Dream Land, that this would require more manpower and resources, not less. Paid for by some one. And that is why it doesn't happen now and I fear won't happen in the future.
It is why, as of today, I am examining other careers. Not going to live my life this way for the next 15-20 years. Life's too short.
It is why, as of today, I am examining other careers. Not going to live my life this way for the next 15-20 years. Life's too short.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Crawley UK (that's next door to LGW - 1800m next door!) Handy for work though.
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by LLuke
I know this all sounds naive, but if the society can trust an 18 year old kid with a machinegun, it must be possible for us to become trusted people.
Consider this, Your wife/girlfreind/child/parents are held at gunpoint and because you are 'trusted' and not searched the demand is made that you carry the container airside where 'someone' will take it from you. If you do not do it or you tell anybody the hostage will be killed if you do they are released (these people will release them to make sure the tactic works). There is a high likelyhood that there demands will be complied with. It is an old tactic and has been used to great effect in NI in the past and by a number of groups since. As Nov points out no one is immune.
One way to combat this threat is to search and apply the measures to all staff and that includes crew. It is the most effective preventative measure. It is V. unlikely that this will be tried when the item is not likely to get through. And the fact is for this method the crew are the constant a lot of people know what you do and the regularity at which you do it.
Careless talk costs . . .
I am sure that this thread is being closely followed by those planning the next strike.
Professionals contributing current procedures are not doing us any favours.
Leave it to the amateur talking heads and don't get drawn into revealing useful information.
Edited to say that this posting is a generalisation and not aimed at anyone in particular
Professionals contributing current procedures are not doing us any favours.
Leave it to the amateur talking heads and don't get drawn into revealing useful information.
Edited to say that this posting is a generalisation and not aimed at anyone in particular
Last edited by Basil; 13th Aug 2006 at 09:22.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Anywhere that pays
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aeropig-
- unfortunately this oft-quoted 'excuse' allows Police, Security staff, and Customs/Immigration to pass unchecked, and sometimes with weapons. Convince me they are immune.
Consider this, Your wife/girlfreind/child/parents are held at gunpoint and because you are 'trusted' and not searched the demand is made that you carry the container airside where 'someone' will take it from you. If you do not do it or you tell anybody the hostage will be killed if you do they are released (these people will release them to make sure the tactic works). There is a high likelyhood that there demands will be complied with. It is an old tactic and has been used to great effect in NI in the past and by a number of groups since. As Nov points out no one is immune.
Aeropig, the scenario more likely is that your terrorist will purchase a "loaded" McDonalds Hamburger and drink after going through security. Or a loaded Burberry Hat, or a carton of cigarettes, or a brand new camcorder.
It's the end of duty free shopping as we know it.
It's the end of duty free shopping as we know it.
Alba Gu Brath
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Merseyside
Age: 55
Posts: 738
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I passed through LGW yesterday on my way home. From what I saw no-one was immune. All hand baggage was checked in, unfortunately not all hand baggage arrived at the destination. Everyone was subjected to the same rules and screening. And do I have a problem with it. Not a jot. I arrived safely at my destination, albeit a bit late, and can now spend the weekend with my family. Hats off to all the airport staff in LGW (and all other airports) who are doing a magnificent job in the circumstances. If all of these measures keep aviation a safe mode of transport then I really don't care whether I can take anything on board or not. One positive side effect is it is a lot quicker to board and disembark without hand baggage!
This is the age.......
......of the train.
I am simply not prepared to put up withe the current airline hand luggage restrictions as the norm 'for the forseeable future'. Entrust car keys, mobile phone, personal organiser, laptop etc to baggage crunchers? Nope - I don't think so.
And I suspect that many more people who travel frequently will be thinking the same unless airlines come up with something more acceptable to their business travellers.
I reckon that companies will start seriously reviewing their travel policies if the current restrictions are still in place in a month's time. Airline bosses need to impress this on the government - or you aircrew won't have a job any longer.
......of the train.
I am simply not prepared to put up withe the current airline hand luggage restrictions as the norm 'for the forseeable future'. Entrust car keys, mobile phone, personal organiser, laptop etc to baggage crunchers? Nope - I don't think so.
And I suspect that many more people who travel frequently will be thinking the same unless airlines come up with something more acceptable to their business travellers.
I reckon that companies will start seriously reviewing their travel policies if the current restrictions are still in place in a month's time. Airline bosses need to impress this on the government - or you aircrew won't have a job any longer.
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sunfish
Aeropig, the scenario more likely is that your terrorist will purchase a "loaded" McDonalds Hamburger and drink after going through security. Or a loaded Burberry Hat, or a carton of cigarettes, or a brand new camcorder.
It's the end of duty free shopping as we know it.
It's the end of duty free shopping as we know it.
Lady Lexxington
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Manor House
Age: 43
Posts: 1,145
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
According to Auntie this morning "Airlines are looking into an abyss of empty seats for this winter" so that's encouraging isn't it?
BEagle I'm sure that the airlines hear and would love to react to your point, but I'm equally sure that their hands are tied by rules and regulations beyond their controls.
BEagle I'm sure that the airlines hear and would love to react to your point, but I'm equally sure that their hands are tied by rules and regulations beyond their controls.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Lexx
Whether airlines can or cannot react, BEagle is right in his analysis and it won't be the politicians, mandarins and officials who pay with their jobs.
Time for your industry to apply some very strong pressure on behalf of the pax and employees or it could be a bleak winter season.
Don't forget that interest rates have just risen and debt levels are higher than ever.
the airlines could well be squeezed from both the premium and non premium end.
The BBC maybe over cooking the situation, but what are you and your colleagues going to do about protecting your business?
I kow what I am doing to protect mine; I am avoiding connecting via London, so that I can be sure that my laptop, backup files on memory sticks and mobile (which are absolutely essential to my work) will stay safely with me throughout the journey.
This may not help you and your colleagues, but then I am not particularly worried about your work, whereas I am about mine.
Sorry to be blunt, but that's the way it is.
When I can carry my laptop on board, I'll start connecting via London once again.
Whether airlines can or cannot react, BEagle is right in his analysis and it won't be the politicians, mandarins and officials who pay with their jobs.
Time for your industry to apply some very strong pressure on behalf of the pax and employees or it could be a bleak winter season.
Don't forget that interest rates have just risen and debt levels are higher than ever.
the airlines could well be squeezed from both the premium and non premium end.
The BBC maybe over cooking the situation, but what are you and your colleagues going to do about protecting your business?
I kow what I am doing to protect mine; I am avoiding connecting via London, so that I can be sure that my laptop, backup files on memory sticks and mobile (which are absolutely essential to my work) will stay safely with me throughout the journey.
This may not help you and your colleagues, but then I am not particularly worried about your work, whereas I am about mine.
Sorry to be blunt, but that's the way it is.
When I can carry my laptop on board, I'll start connecting via London once again.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by flt_lt_w_mitty
Aeropig-- unfortunately this oft-quoted 'excuse' allows Police, Security staff, and Customs/Immigration to pass unchecked, and sometimes with weapons. Convince me they are immune.
If you were an islamic terrorist what would be your favorite career chioce? Probably it would be airport security, police, customs or immigration. Your career aspirations would be enhanced by the fact that several of these services are activly trying to recruit a greater proportion of people from ethnic minorities.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Phones in the Hold
Watch the pages of this Forum site fill up with 'Aircraft diverted' due to indications on smoke/fire in the hold due to the fact that the holds are stuffed full of Mobile phones...
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I can carry my laptop on board, I'll start connecting via London once again.
Sadly, I feel many hundreds of thousands will agree with you.
Indeed, F3G!
But it's not just London, it's any UK airport at the moment.
I'm currently looking at travelling by other means to Brussels or Dusseldorf, then flying normally. Until, that is, I am allowed to take my laptop, mobile phone, personal organiser and car keys on board. I don't mind putting them in a transparent brief case and having them stowed in a locked overhead bin, but I am not prepared to risk their loss, damage or theft in hold baggage.
I've had my hold luggage delayed by airlines at least twice in the last year. Had my laptop, business documents, phone and car keys been in the luggage.......
But it's not just London, it's any UK airport at the moment.
I'm currently looking at travelling by other means to Brussels or Dusseldorf, then flying normally. Until, that is, I am allowed to take my laptop, mobile phone, personal organiser and car keys on board. I don't mind putting them in a transparent brief case and having them stowed in a locked overhead bin, but I am not prepared to risk their loss, damage or theft in hold baggage.
I've had my hold luggage delayed by airlines at least twice in the last year. Had my laptop, business documents, phone and car keys been in the luggage.......
Guest
Posts: n/a
Stepclimb
Firstly my congratulations on getting your TP job, I realise that it equates to many hours of training, study and a big personal financial commitment, which I deeply respect. I hope that you are enjoying the new challenge.
You comments are well made, I guess that I view this current situation as a trigger or accelerator, that could make things worse than they need to be.
Firstly my congratulations on getting your TP job, I realise that it equates to many hours of training, study and a big personal financial commitment, which I deeply respect. I hope that you are enjoying the new challenge.
You comments are well made, I guess that I view this current situation as a trigger or accelerator, that could make things worse than they need to be.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Chilterns/Blighty
Posts: 478
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Given all this it wouldn't surprise me to see major corporations/companies revisit light aviation for inter-European travel.
Don't let anymore small airfields close fer crissakes!
Don't let anymore small airfields close fer crissakes!
aka Capt PPRuNe
Join Date: May 1995
Location: UK
Posts: 4,541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As was pointed out to Aeropig, what is there to stop the families of airport police, customs officers or even the screeners themselves from being held hostage and forcing the police, customs or screeners to carry through something? Nothing!
You made a point about the current fight against terrorism being intelligence led and it would appear that the latest coup was a result of that. However, at the same time you agree that the present situation that, whilst very restrictive for pax, some of the stupidity and ill thought through ideas being applied to pilots show that what we are witnessing and experiencing is the typical knee-jerk, shut the stable door after the horse has bolted scenario that is so typical these days. If, as you rightly pointed out, the liquid bomb/components scenario has already been successfully tried on the Phillipines Airlines B747 in the 90's, why have they only now decided to stop us carrying anything on board as hand baggage? Are you so sure that the really dedicated terrorists are not prepared to put anything in their body cavities? If, as you say and has already been demonstrated on the news, the amount of liquid explosive required will fit into a 35mm film container, I'm sure that it wouldn't be too uncomfortable for someone to smuggle it on board, whether as a pax, crew, police, customs or screener.
So, either you use proper 'intelligence' led profiling which is designed to see if the person is indeed being held hostage through his or her family or you go for the biggest screw-up in 'intelligence' led security screening that we have witnessed so far. Damage the industry to the point that the most often heard argument against intelligent profiling is that it is too expensive and too disruptive. Duh!
I am now off to try and catch a flight to London to get to work. I'll be in uniform and somehow I have to trust that my flight case will fit inside my suitcase and that neither get lost. It would be a sham if I arrived at my destination and I didn't have my passport or licence or spare glasses.
You made a point about the current fight against terrorism being intelligence led and it would appear that the latest coup was a result of that. However, at the same time you agree that the present situation that, whilst very restrictive for pax, some of the stupidity and ill thought through ideas being applied to pilots show that what we are witnessing and experiencing is the typical knee-jerk, shut the stable door after the horse has bolted scenario that is so typical these days. If, as you rightly pointed out, the liquid bomb/components scenario has already been successfully tried on the Phillipines Airlines B747 in the 90's, why have they only now decided to stop us carrying anything on board as hand baggage? Are you so sure that the really dedicated terrorists are not prepared to put anything in their body cavities? If, as you say and has already been demonstrated on the news, the amount of liquid explosive required will fit into a 35mm film container, I'm sure that it wouldn't be too uncomfortable for someone to smuggle it on board, whether as a pax, crew, police, customs or screener.
So, either you use proper 'intelligence' led profiling which is designed to see if the person is indeed being held hostage through his or her family or you go for the biggest screw-up in 'intelligence' led security screening that we have witnessed so far. Damage the industry to the point that the most often heard argument against intelligent profiling is that it is too expensive and too disruptive. Duh!
I am now off to try and catch a flight to London to get to work. I'll be in uniform and somehow I have to trust that my flight case will fit inside my suitcase and that neither get lost. It would be a sham if I arrived at my destination and I didn't have my passport or licence or spare glasses.
Similar thead in PAX and SLF
Pardon a humble PAX for gatecrashing the flightdeck, but there are many PAX considering the same questions in their own forum, especially IN "Uk Airport Chaos (hand wringing thread) ".
There are questions regarding:
Is there anyone from the pointy end/security available and able to shed a light on any of the questions raised?
I feel many of you are justifyably concerned regarding the durability of airlines to survive the current scare. Certainly within europe, there are fast regional surface links and PAX will vote with their bums as to how they will travel - if flying is a PITA, they will endure a slightly longer surface journey.
As to travelling across the pond, flying is the only option if time is of the essence, but otherwise, cruising might be about to come back big time (no jet lag, good food, no baggage allowances to talk of, leg room is not an issue (DVT scares etc). It's about 90hrs by boat to NY - given the way security is changing, it'll soon be quicker to sail than fly
Most PAX have a great deal of respect for those who fly for a living and ensure the safety of those flying especially in these troubled times.
Constructive comments please.
There are questions regarding:
- Laptop security
- X-ray machines
- Purchases Airside/duty free
- Security screening of flight deck and cc
- Integrity of airside staff (at stores) and delivery of supplies to said stores
- Security in europe vs uk (i.e. is it better to route via a european hub to the USA, getting to the hub via surface transport) - thinking about the safety of laptops etc
Is there anyone from the pointy end/security available and able to shed a light on any of the questions raised?
I feel many of you are justifyably concerned regarding the durability of airlines to survive the current scare. Certainly within europe, there are fast regional surface links and PAX will vote with their bums as to how they will travel - if flying is a PITA, they will endure a slightly longer surface journey.
As to travelling across the pond, flying is the only option if time is of the essence, but otherwise, cruising might be about to come back big time (no jet lag, good food, no baggage allowances to talk of, leg room is not an issue (DVT scares etc). It's about 90hrs by boat to NY - given the way security is changing, it'll soon be quicker to sail than fly
Most PAX have a great deal of respect for those who fly for a living and ensure the safety of those flying especially in these troubled times.
Constructive comments please.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Crew the Screw
I defer to your greater experience!
To be fair, the checked baggage system is a compromise to deliver a high volume throughput.
Sensible pax buy travel insurance and the occasional breakage is part of the game.
The problem arises when you put laptops into baggage, since the physical machine can be repèlaced, but the temporary lack of access to the data and functionality is the showstopper.
Danny
I agree completey with your comments about profiling.
I defer to your greater experience!
To be fair, the checked baggage system is a compromise to deliver a high volume throughput.
Sensible pax buy travel insurance and the occasional breakage is part of the game.
The problem arises when you put laptops into baggage, since the physical machine can be repèlaced, but the temporary lack of access to the data and functionality is the showstopper.
Danny
I agree completey with your comments about profiling.