Airport Security (Merged) - Effects on Crew/Staff
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Originally Posted by Final 3 Greens
As a pax and a professional (member of a recognised professional body and qualified as a Dr in Italy) I do not object to being security screened in the same way as non professionals, since in the greater scheme of things, status is irrelevant when travelling by air.
I suggest that some of the "professionals" commenting in the last couple of posts would do well to develop a sense of humility and accept the rigours of the 21st century.
And by the way (for those in the UK), your government does not place you in the same social groupings as professionals, you are ranked with train drivers.
I happen to think that unfair, but please don't reinforce the stereotype.
I suggest that some of the "professionals" commenting in the last couple of posts would do well to develop a sense of humility and accept the rigours of the 21st century.
And by the way (for those in the UK), your government does not place you in the same social groupings as professionals, you are ranked with train drivers.
I happen to think that unfair, but please don't reinforce the stereotype.
Not sure how "final" feels about this but I am a professional. Have or currently hold ATP licenses in 5 countries, engineer license as well as EMT/Paramedic rating. If they are going to start treating us as anything but a professional then its time for a new career.
Remember, its how we let them treat us in many cases and I will submit to any inspection they require at the security checkpoint but when they try to get me to fly the airplane with less equipment than needed for safe operation or fly without food and water, thats where I as PIC draw the line. Its time to start emailing our Chief Pilots and voicing our concerns IMHO.
Psychophysiological entity
The horrible thing, is that nothing is new...it's just worse.
In 1970 I failed miserably in my professionalism by losing my cool with ‘security'. To quote myself... "With the crew's hands bound by some sort of subservient interpretation of professionalism." I can't put it any better, but I was always out on one limb or another, I fancied that I could see the danger. Many agreed, but had mortgages and family to feed.
On one occasion, I had just brought a flight in as captain, now all I wanted to do was sit in the back with me sports jacket on and have coffee. Ooooh no. A half mile hike so that I could go through security with the passengers. It was spelt out to me by a ‘senior captain', how my family might have been taken hostage and I would therefore be a risk. The funny thing is, that the higher the position in the airline, the more banal the statements uttered. I'll refrain from shouting, but this was in 1980.
In calmer moments, I had to accept that perhaps I was wrong. Certainly any militancy would hurt my employers and indeed their investors, so such action was a non starter, but now, things are so screwed up that action has to be taken. But what can crews do that will not compromise security?
Well, the aforementioned meetings with ‘the government', will be a start, but the unions must also make it clear that what is happening is unacceptable.
I should declare at this point that it's okay for me, I'm too old to be affected, directly anyway, but I fancy that I can still see the dangers.
Flight-deck aircrew, should be a major authority at any airfield. Their licence is probably the highest qualification document within a mile. Perhaps there is the odd PhD around in a management position, but the ATPL and ATP is a high level qualification and usually proof of a pilot's commitment to the job. As I said before, any amount of security vetting can be carried out, but once done, should become part of the licence and enable that crew member to carry out their profession without any interference from practically unqualified people.
Imagine security in a hospital, telling a surgeon what tools he could take into the theater. I am certain they would get short shrift.
If security does feel that a crew-member is a threat, then the police should be involved. A police officer has usually made his career his life, much in the way that pilots have, and hopefully this will reflect in the way crews are treated.
I think aircrew will have to go with the flow during this crisis. To make any radical changes too quickly could be dangerous. One step at a time. But the steps should start now.
In 1970 I failed miserably in my professionalism by losing my cool with ‘security'. To quote myself... "With the crew's hands bound by some sort of subservient interpretation of professionalism." I can't put it any better, but I was always out on one limb or another, I fancied that I could see the danger. Many agreed, but had mortgages and family to feed.
On one occasion, I had just brought a flight in as captain, now all I wanted to do was sit in the back with me sports jacket on and have coffee. Ooooh no. A half mile hike so that I could go through security with the passengers. It was spelt out to me by a ‘senior captain', how my family might have been taken hostage and I would therefore be a risk. The funny thing is, that the higher the position in the airline, the more banal the statements uttered. I'll refrain from shouting, but this was in 1980.
In calmer moments, I had to accept that perhaps I was wrong. Certainly any militancy would hurt my employers and indeed their investors, so such action was a non starter, but now, things are so screwed up that action has to be taken. But what can crews do that will not compromise security?
Well, the aforementioned meetings with ‘the government', will be a start, but the unions must also make it clear that what is happening is unacceptable.
I should declare at this point that it's okay for me, I'm too old to be affected, directly anyway, but I fancy that I can still see the dangers.
Flight-deck aircrew, should be a major authority at any airfield. Their licence is probably the highest qualification document within a mile. Perhaps there is the odd PhD around in a management position, but the ATPL and ATP is a high level qualification and usually proof of a pilot's commitment to the job. As I said before, any amount of security vetting can be carried out, but once done, should become part of the licence and enable that crew member to carry out their profession without any interference from practically unqualified people.
Imagine security in a hospital, telling a surgeon what tools he could take into the theater. I am certain they would get short shrift.
If security does feel that a crew-member is a threat, then the police should be involved. A police officer has usually made his career his life, much in the way that pilots have, and hopefully this will reflect in the way crews are treated.
I think aircrew will have to go with the flow during this crisis. To make any radical changes too quickly could be dangerous. One step at a time. But the steps should start now.
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Well said Chandler. Just for the record Final, I gave up a career as a lawyer to fly, and I know of 2 MDs at Air Canada, now happily plying their new trade in 767s and A320s respectively.
Back to the thread - the issue is trust and safety - with the tools and equipment professional pilots need.
No-one is suggesting that we do not submit to regular background checking, random testing, and we should lose our jobs if we somehow cross a line into criminality that affects our trusted position...Period.
However, everyone here is correct. Where a blanket knee-jerk reaction causes this much angst with crews, and law abiding customers of our respective airlines, there needs to be a balance, a real-life workable solution rather than dictates from government agencies not thinking out of the box.
When the real-world solution for both fare-paying customers and crews is out there, this thread, will simply become history.
Back to the thread - the issue is trust and safety - with the tools and equipment professional pilots need.
No-one is suggesting that we do not submit to regular background checking, random testing, and we should lose our jobs if we somehow cross a line into criminality that affects our trusted position...Period.
However, everyone here is correct. Where a blanket knee-jerk reaction causes this much angst with crews, and law abiding customers of our respective airlines, there needs to be a balance, a real-life workable solution rather than dictates from government agencies not thinking out of the box.
When the real-world solution for both fare-paying customers and crews is out there, this thread, will simply become history.
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Apparently one of those arrested was a security officer at LHR, another an accountant and another an architect. If those types of professionals can be mixed up in this so can aircrew. In fact the type of people involved are likely to be hard working, concientious, quiet, never in any trouble and when the suggstion is made that they could be everyone says "no - not possible, he would never hurt anyone".
The boys who protest outside the Finsbury Park mosque are not the threat. The boys with police records are not the threat.
The threat comes from those holding positions of responsibility, trusted, good at what they do. You only have to look at the profiles of the 7/7 bombers to see that they were not the raving looney type.
So even aircrew are not above suspicion and whether it is liked or not they will have to put up with the hassle.
I sometimes think aircrew spend so much time above the clouds the brain is left there. Aircrew are nothing special; they are just ordinary people doing an ordinary job like everyone else. The have mortgages, divorces etc etc.
The boys who protest outside the Finsbury Park mosque are not the threat. The boys with police records are not the threat.
The threat comes from those holding positions of responsibility, trusted, good at what they do. You only have to look at the profiles of the 7/7 bombers to see that they were not the raving looney type.
So even aircrew are not above suspicion and whether it is liked or not they will have to put up with the hassle.
I sometimes think aircrew spend so much time above the clouds the brain is left there. Aircrew are nothing special; they are just ordinary people doing an ordinary job like everyone else. The have mortgages, divorces etc etc.
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Originally Posted by GreatCircle
However, everyone here is correct. Where a blanket knee-jerk reaction causes this much angst with crews, and law abiding customers of our respective airlines, there needs to be a balance, a real-life workable solution rather than dictates from government agencies not thinking out of the box.
When the real-world solution for both fare-paying customers and crews is out there, this thread, will simply become history.
When the real-world solution for both fare-paying customers and crews is out there, this thread, will simply become history.
The security people forget that we are the ones inside the plane who are WORKING WITH THEM for a safe and secure flight, and as well the ones who very well might die if the plane goes down, so we want each and every flight to end in the best possible means.
Lets hope that this thread is the start of a movement to get a change in our situation. After all, when I am seated in the left seat I can do anything I want with the airplane. Is a bottle of water or sandwich really going to change this? Since solo'ing I have been flying for 34 years now and not felt the need to crash the plane yet, and this will not change anytime soon.
Fly safe!
CD
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"No-one is suggesting that we do not submit to regular background checking, random testing, and we should lose our jobs if we somehow cross a line into criminality that affects our trusted position...Period"
ChrisBL - I guess you didn't read my quote before posting your little ditty. No-one here has suggested "aircrews" are "special" in the way you say...but I do detect a bit of a chip on your shoulder coming through the net....
ChrisBL - I guess you didn't read my quote before posting your little ditty. No-one here has suggested "aircrews" are "special" in the way you say...but I do detect a bit of a chip on your shoulder coming through the net....
Up to last week, people generally took their electronics, beverages and shave, grooming, makeup kit in the cabin. On the way through security, the electronics were available to checking.
So now the same items will have to be checked. Enhanced theft opportunities aside, can somebody explain to me how a liquid/gel explosive becomes safe in the hold
So now the same items will have to be checked. Enhanced theft opportunities aside, can somebody explain to me how a liquid/gel explosive becomes safe in the hold
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Originally Posted by Final 3 Greens
The trouble is that fear causes mistrust and there's a lot of fear being whipped up at the moment.
At the end of the day, the present security approach is outdated and needs to be replaced.
At the end of the day, the present security approach is outdated and needs to be replaced.
Yes, and tempers fray on here too because of frustration. (Embarrassed silence from the Great White North)
A new intelligence led security approach is the only way. I wonder if we should learn lessons from the Israeli approach to it all?
Sorry for the tread drift, but is it permitted (or even possible) to clear a bag through normal channels and then dump it airside in the engineers' cabin?
Would make it easier to clear security if the necessaries stay airside.
Would make it easier to clear security if the necessaries stay airside.
This is obviously a complex subject as this thread demonstrates.
In principle no member of flight crew objects to being subject to security checks. What is being objected to is the manner in which these checks are sometimes being conducted and the perceived lack of respect being shown to those that have the ULTIMATE responsibility for safe flight. I also sense that flight crew feel that their views are being ignored.
Some form of action with respect to these matters is long overdue. Conventionally this would be via the pilot unions or even our elected representatives! However, I think more would be achieved by taking a more lateral, enlightened approach. We need to "keep our cool" but register our strong disapproval in other visible ways. Perhaps we could all wear a suitable badge or an armband or even board the aircraft wearing nothing but our underwear (hats suitably donned of course!) - it would not take long for the press to get hold of it (no pun intended!) and we might get some welcome publicity.
Yes, these are slightly frivolous suggestions but we need to "think outside the box", in order to see any real progress!
In principle no member of flight crew objects to being subject to security checks. What is being objected to is the manner in which these checks are sometimes being conducted and the perceived lack of respect being shown to those that have the ULTIMATE responsibility for safe flight. I also sense that flight crew feel that their views are being ignored.
Some form of action with respect to these matters is long overdue. Conventionally this would be via the pilot unions or even our elected representatives! However, I think more would be achieved by taking a more lateral, enlightened approach. We need to "keep our cool" but register our strong disapproval in other visible ways. Perhaps we could all wear a suitable badge or an armband or even board the aircraft wearing nothing but our underwear (hats suitably donned of course!) - it would not take long for the press to get hold of it (no pun intended!) and we might get some welcome publicity.
Yes, these are slightly frivolous suggestions but we need to "think outside the box", in order to see any real progress!
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Nice to see the headless chicken syndrome alive and well in the UK although having said that we have to be thankful that this was stopped.
Speaking with my pax hat on I think the only way to go for travel is for the passengers to board with virtually zilch.
As the parent of cc - I worry for my daughter.
However, as wannabe cc, I went for my (unsuccessful) interview the other day and was issued a security pass without producing one iota of paperwork to say why I was there or being asked to show any ID whatsoever. Tut tut.
Good point about the axes by the way. Obviously not as capable of carnage as those half-eaten Toffee Crisps - they're deadly.
Speaking with my pax hat on I think the only way to go for travel is for the passengers to board with virtually zilch.
As the parent of cc - I worry for my daughter.
However, as wannabe cc, I went for my (unsuccessful) interview the other day and was issued a security pass without producing one iota of paperwork to say why I was there or being asked to show any ID whatsoever. Tut tut.
Good point about the axes by the way. Obviously not as capable of carnage as those half-eaten Toffee Crisps - they're deadly.
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well i normally just sit and read and keep quiet - but time for a reply or two im afraid.
loose rivets. yes the atpl may be a high qualification. just dont forget the other major force keeping you up there - the licenced engineer. If you think you can get a JAA B1 or B2 licence any quicker than a atpl - id like to watch. It takes a hell of a lot of study to get the writtens out the way - as much if not more than the atpl's. As for experience - you can throw a monkey in a sim and teach them to fly - it takes years to make a decent engineer with experience.
blue up - engineers have offices - we dont live in dark cages any more. some oufits do - those professionally qualified engineers would like to be treated that way. maybe we should start calling you all flight deck etc.
why im moaning. you want to try and get things in and out of security to do your job. How about take EVERY single can of oil out your van and x ray them one by one. then repeat for aerosols and any other item in your van every time you go through security - see how long it takes you to get fed up tryin to do your job ! not to mention you cannot get any deliverys airside in the uk - were talking no engine oil. no nitrogen or oxygen cylinders. no water or anything else to drink. oh dont forget - we carnt go in the terminal to eat or drink - engineers are a security risk mixing with passengers.hang on - dont we go in the cabin to fix the jets?to sign the tech log ?. dont take your phone or ipod airside its a risk? as is your leatherman as you go land to airside. shame we all have 40kg tool boxes full of alll sorts of impliments that can be dangerous - but not to worry with no oil or spares allowed airside we wont need them soon. must remember that the spotty teenager taking my ipod off me will make all the difference when i have stanley knoves, hammers, scrapers scalpers not to mention some lovely 1"+ spanners - they would make a lovely hold in someones head !
the world has gone barking mad ! i just hope someone see's some sense. right back off landside to buy a drink, drink it sat at the edge of the road - then go back airside to carry on ! what a bizzare set up we now have !
loose rivets. yes the atpl may be a high qualification. just dont forget the other major force keeping you up there - the licenced engineer. If you think you can get a JAA B1 or B2 licence any quicker than a atpl - id like to watch. It takes a hell of a lot of study to get the writtens out the way - as much if not more than the atpl's. As for experience - you can throw a monkey in a sim and teach them to fly - it takes years to make a decent engineer with experience.
blue up - engineers have offices - we dont live in dark cages any more. some oufits do - those professionally qualified engineers would like to be treated that way. maybe we should start calling you all flight deck etc.
why im moaning. you want to try and get things in and out of security to do your job. How about take EVERY single can of oil out your van and x ray them one by one. then repeat for aerosols and any other item in your van every time you go through security - see how long it takes you to get fed up tryin to do your job ! not to mention you cannot get any deliverys airside in the uk - were talking no engine oil. no nitrogen or oxygen cylinders. no water or anything else to drink. oh dont forget - we carnt go in the terminal to eat or drink - engineers are a security risk mixing with passengers.hang on - dont we go in the cabin to fix the jets?to sign the tech log ?. dont take your phone or ipod airside its a risk? as is your leatherman as you go land to airside. shame we all have 40kg tool boxes full of alll sorts of impliments that can be dangerous - but not to worry with no oil or spares allowed airside we wont need them soon. must remember that the spotty teenager taking my ipod off me will make all the difference when i have stanley knoves, hammers, scrapers scalpers not to mention some lovely 1"+ spanners - they would make a lovely hold in someones head !
the world has gone barking mad ! i just hope someone see's some sense. right back off landside to buy a drink, drink it sat at the edge of the road - then go back airside to carry on ! what a bizzare set up we now have !
speedtapeking - well said!
There is always safety in numbers so flight crew and engineers need to team up to raise objections at the highest level that our professional roles with repect to flight safety are being compromised due to "security".
There is always safety in numbers so flight crew and engineers need to team up to raise objections at the highest level that our professional roles with repect to flight safety are being compromised due to "security".
Wunderbra
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I think the idea with the liquid explosives being safe in the hold is that they were to be carried on board as component parts and then assembled on board.
The explosive on its own would be useless without some kind of detonation device, at its simplest a blasting cap or even just a piece of wire and a 9 volt battery. These things should show up on the baggage scanning equipment.
The idea is that any assembled device should be picked up by the scanners, and if the components of a device are in the hold rather than in the cabin, they cannot be assembled in situ and so the risk is removed.
As has been stated previously, it doesn't stop some loony from stuffing half a stick of dynamite and the necessary detonation equipment up their backside and walking through security.
I don't think pax would put up with full body cavity searches before all flights, and with the security measures being reactive to specific intelligence lets hope no-one plans an attack in that manner!
The explosive on its own would be useless without some kind of detonation device, at its simplest a blasting cap or even just a piece of wire and a 9 volt battery. These things should show up on the baggage scanning equipment.
The idea is that any assembled device should be picked up by the scanners, and if the components of a device are in the hold rather than in the cabin, they cannot be assembled in situ and so the risk is removed.
As has been stated previously, it doesn't stop some loony from stuffing half a stick of dynamite and the necessary detonation equipment up their backside and walking through security.
I don't think pax would put up with full body cavity searches before all flights, and with the security measures being reactive to specific intelligence lets hope no-one plans an attack in that manner!
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If a loony wants to blow an aircraft, he'll find a way to do it, it's just a matter of time and he'll find a way while we run after yesterday's threats.
The only way out is preventing through intelligence, as the latest news demonstrate.
The only way out is preventing through intelligence, as the latest news demonstrate.
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firefly - thanks for the back up. i just carnt wait to ground an aircraft when its oxgen is low - or no N2 to blow the wheels up - or even no oil left to top the engine up !!
I will write which ever happens first as an open entry - drive back to my office an laugh my head off as the passengers kick off when ther flight is delayed. I really cannot wait for revenge of the engineer - see how long the jobs worths last then (thats not a go at the security guards i know there just carrying out orders) but how much fun to have 3 or 4 737's and a couple of 757's all sat there due no engine oil !! and yes i'd make sure the passengers got the real reason why there delayed and not just a tech delay.
bring on the end of the airside oil supplies - im going to laugh my c**k off when it happens - whilst shouting told you so !
I will write which ever happens first as an open entry - drive back to my office an laugh my head off as the passengers kick off when ther flight is delayed. I really cannot wait for revenge of the engineer - see how long the jobs worths last then (thats not a go at the security guards i know there just carrying out orders) but how much fun to have 3 or 4 737's and a couple of 757's all sat there due no engine oil !! and yes i'd make sure the passengers got the real reason why there delayed and not just a tech delay.
bring on the end of the airside oil supplies - im going to laugh my c**k off when it happens - whilst shouting told you so !
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I know that this is going off the tread a little bit but I am a bit concerned about putting all my belongings in my luggage which is going to go in the hold as a close friend of mine went out with a baggage handler and he was an expert as picking at the locks and taking personnal belongings of other people! I am traveling to the UK in a few days so as you can imagine I am concerned. Is nothing safe any more?!
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Thankyou Scotland Yard for saving our American butts
My hats have to go off to the Brits for intercepting this potential atrocity if only our super-multibillion dollar beauracracy the we call 'Homeland security' 
could do the same detective work.. or any real work at all
it is a shame more freedoms have to be denied the majority of todays good folks just trying to travel for vacation or whatever, but that is the insane world in which we now live.
quite frankly I'm scared i think when i can financially, I will lease or buy a used Piper for my local east coast flying, though I'm allergic to mountains and large bodies of water... night is nice though, wx is very calm here usually. right now due to personal considerations I don't fly at all pax or pilot...hate it
could do the same detective work.. or any real work at allit is a shame more freedoms have to be denied the majority of todays good folks just trying to travel for vacation or whatever, but that is the insane world in which we now live.
quite frankly I'm scared i think when i can financially, I will lease or buy a used Piper for my local east coast flying, though I'm allergic to mountains and large bodies of water... night is nice though, wx is very calm here usually. right now due to personal considerations I don't fly at all pax or pilot...hate it
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Originally Posted by flyblue
If a loony wants to blow an aircraft, he'll find a way to do it, it's just a matter of time and he'll find a way while we run after yesterday's threats.
The only way out is preventing through intelligence, as the latest news demonstrate.
The only way out is preventing through intelligence, as the latest news demonstrate.
As was pointed out in an earlier post many times the people at the security have an arrogant attitude against flight crew then things go downwards from there.
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Security, common sense or circus?
One fine day a pilot gets told by security he can't bring his bottle of water and his leatherman knife.
In a parallel universe, the same pilot brings his knife and water and take's his plane flying. After he's finished his orange (the only healthy crew food on board) he put's his knife away and take's a swig of water. He then takes the crash axe from behind his seat, swings it and takes his colleagues head clean off. Cabin crew are unable to do anything as there is a bulletproof door in the way. Next thing he disconnects the autopilot and crashes the plane with 10000 litres of explosive jet fuel into a building.
Dear mister security man, tell me again, why can't I bring my water and my knife? I honestly don't understand...
Good night
In a parallel universe, the same pilot brings his knife and water and take's his plane flying. After he's finished his orange (the only healthy crew food on board) he put's his knife away and take's a swig of water. He then takes the crash axe from behind his seat, swings it and takes his colleagues head clean off. Cabin crew are unable to do anything as there is a bulletproof door in the way. Next thing he disconnects the autopilot and crashes the plane with 10000 litres of explosive jet fuel into a building.
Dear mister security man, tell me again, why can't I bring my water and my knife? I honestly don't understand...
Good night