Ryanair/Channel 4 dispatches Programme
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Originally Posted by skysoarer
If they were genuinely unsafe, the IAA or the CAA would have jumped all over them by now.
You have obviously never dealt with the IAA, those world champions of acquiessence to the Bart Simpson defence - "they didn't do it, you never saw it and you can't prove it"
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Perhaps part of the problem is:
I reiterate that:
- Airline Pilots do not understand Television Production and staff.
- Television Production staff do not understand Airline Pilots and their ways of working.
I reiterate that:
- This documentary will do nothing to enlighten either side about the other because adversarial tactics rarely do. Both sides will retire stating that they have won and NOTHING will change.
- This documentary will make ZERO diff to FR and their clients. Only a smoking hole will do that.
...the thin end thereof
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There are, as always, two sides to every story. And I am not an expert, nor do I claim to have any more knowledge other than what I have read on here about Ryanair or the industry in general.
Both Ryanair and Journalists are frequent targets for 'bashing' here, due in no small part to the fact that this is a website for pilots and like all professions they have an agenda, which is frequently at odds with the agenda of the aforementioned. Mr O'Leary's agenda is to maximise Ryanair's profits, and to protect the PR interests of the company from bad publicity that could affect profits. C4's agenda is to put out programming that will be both balanced and factual and entertaining to Joe Public, and as we know those two are often mutually exclusive. However, if C4 have uncovered company practices that are unscrupulous, or worse, compromise safety, then it is in the public interest that their findings are published.
There is no doubt that MOL has done extremely well at Ryanair, from the 'bottom line' perspective, and no doubt also that there is a great deal of ill feeling towards him among staff, some of which looks to me to be entirely justified. He runs the company in a 'bottom line' style, and while this undoubtedly achieves the goal of getting short term profits up and keeping shareholders happy, I'm not at all convinced it's the best way to secure a company's future from the long-term perspective. An unhappy workforce is bad for business, staff turnover will be higher, costs of recruiting and training new staff will always offset the benefits gained from slashing costs and in doing so causing unrest in the way that MOL appears to have done at Ryanair.
MOL has made a fortune out of Ryanair, the Sunday Times Rich List 2005 estimated his wealth at £297 million. When he presides over a company notorious for low pay and workforce bullying, I can't help but think that there is something wrong, and moreover that as a member of the public (and potential Ryanair customer), I have a right to know about what goes on in the company, and that's why I will be watching C4's documentary tomorrow. Maybe it would be better for all to actually watch the programme first before passing judgment on it. But reading excellent and well informed posts like Jetlegs' only makes me more intrigued to see what really did happen when C4 sent undercover journalists inside. The evidence that they have will no doubt be sensationalised to some degree (that's the job of the journalist, they have to sell advertising space and get viewing ratings up the way airlines have to sell seats.)
As for "If they were genuinely unsafe, the IAA or the CAA would have jumped all over them by now." - a one word answer: Valujet.
Both Ryanair and Journalists are frequent targets for 'bashing' here, due in no small part to the fact that this is a website for pilots and like all professions they have an agenda, which is frequently at odds with the agenda of the aforementioned. Mr O'Leary's agenda is to maximise Ryanair's profits, and to protect the PR interests of the company from bad publicity that could affect profits. C4's agenda is to put out programming that will be both balanced and factual and entertaining to Joe Public, and as we know those two are often mutually exclusive. However, if C4 have uncovered company practices that are unscrupulous, or worse, compromise safety, then it is in the public interest that their findings are published.
There is no doubt that MOL has done extremely well at Ryanair, from the 'bottom line' perspective, and no doubt also that there is a great deal of ill feeling towards him among staff, some of which looks to me to be entirely justified. He runs the company in a 'bottom line' style, and while this undoubtedly achieves the goal of getting short term profits up and keeping shareholders happy, I'm not at all convinced it's the best way to secure a company's future from the long-term perspective. An unhappy workforce is bad for business, staff turnover will be higher, costs of recruiting and training new staff will always offset the benefits gained from slashing costs and in doing so causing unrest in the way that MOL appears to have done at Ryanair.
MOL has made a fortune out of Ryanair, the Sunday Times Rich List 2005 estimated his wealth at £297 million. When he presides over a company notorious for low pay and workforce bullying, I can't help but think that there is something wrong, and moreover that as a member of the public (and potential Ryanair customer), I have a right to know about what goes on in the company, and that's why I will be watching C4's documentary tomorrow. Maybe it would be better for all to actually watch the programme first before passing judgment on it. But reading excellent and well informed posts like Jetlegs' only makes me more intrigued to see what really did happen when C4 sent undercover journalists inside. The evidence that they have will no doubt be sensationalised to some degree (that's the job of the journalist, they have to sell advertising space and get viewing ratings up the way airlines have to sell seats.)
As for "If they were genuinely unsafe, the IAA or the CAA would have jumped all over them by now." - a one word answer: Valujet.
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Originally Posted by Camel Killer
ROFLMAO How touchingly naive! You have obviously never dealt with the IAA, those world champions of acquiessence to the Bart Simpson defence - "they didn't do it, you never saw it and you can't prove it"
You have obviously never dealt with the IAA, those world champions of acquiessence to the Bart Simpson defence - "they didn't do it, you never saw it and you can't prove it"LOL! Well I'm certainly not in a rush to believe Channel IV over the IAA! C4 is the home of Big Waste of Transmission Time. Ryanair do have problems but, with a search on Google or BBC News, they don't seem to have many serious safety implications? We've had a naff few years for aircraft safety, but we're (in our corner of Europe) still very safe for commercial aviation. I wouldn't bat an eyelid at flying on Ryanair as a passenger, and why should I?
I can't work for them anyway due to the shear cost of getting in there. Just about every profession under the sun has issues with long-hours, which seems to be the only thing with substance that C4 have to present. Well Whoppee doo, I've had long hours for the last 8 years, and my folks have had it for Many more. We have it pretty good here in the Uk in terms of safety, and we should appreciate it and be thankful.
As for Naive? I'm more likely to deal with the CAA than the IAA, but my comments about the general safety of aviation here stand. I'm far more in fear of my safety driving on the motorway. C4 not allowing a decent Ryanair response speaks for itself and *that* point should be highlighted over all else with regards to this television. I'm certainly not wasting any more time posting *here* until the programme has aired.
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Re Live interviews.
There is also the problem that the interviewer would presumably be a journalist with an incomplete understanding of the airline business and therefore unable to refute counterclaims by a Ryanair expert.
Could C4 get credible experts who would be seen as impartial to enter into such a debate on their behalf?
There is also the problem that the interviewer would presumably be a journalist with an incomplete understanding of the airline business and therefore unable to refute counterclaims by a Ryanair expert.
Could C4 get credible experts who would be seen as impartial to enter into such a debate on their behalf?
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As for "If they were genuinely unsafe, the IAA or the CAA would have jumped all over them by now." - a one word answer: Valujet says Wedge.
Unfortunately that is incorrect. Valujet as is often the case were only shut down after the worst had already happened. Again unfortunately the authorities do not really react until its too late. Thats what history tells us because money does the talking and nothing else.
As for the IAA, the warning signs have been there for a while that they have become ineffective.
Ryanair long term in my opinion, will not revolutionize the industry, they will destroy it.
Who is strong enough out there to take them on?
Unfortunately that is incorrect. Valujet as is often the case were only shut down after the worst had already happened. Again unfortunately the authorities do not really react until its too late. Thats what history tells us because money does the talking and nothing else.
As for the IAA, the warning signs have been there for a while that they have become ineffective.
Ryanair long term in my opinion, will not revolutionize the industry, they will destroy it.
Who is strong enough out there to take them on?
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I have followed this tread from a distance. Ryanair is complying with the law and maybe even beyond.
They are being watched very closely and as such are performing better by the day, not to mention the experience they have gained in this environment.
If anyone is to blame to the alleged destruction of aviation by RYR it is the lawmakers themselves.
They are being watched very closely and as such are performing better by the day, not to mention the experience they have gained in this environment.
If anyone is to blame to the alleged destruction of aviation by RYR it is the lawmakers themselves.
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I find the safety briefings from the cabin crew on Ryanair totally unacceptable on the Bournemouth - Gerona route (they all seem to be of Spanish origin).
Their command of the English language is appalling and they don't help their cause by rushing them, added to which they combine the safety briefings with the hard sell of in-flight sales.
I am looking forward to this program. I flew for BA for 35 years and since retiring have flown with FR on about 20 occasions. It will be interesting to see FR from the inside. I accept they are a no frills airline but that should not apply to the safety aspects of the cabin crew job.
No smoke without fire? Lets wait and see!
Their command of the English language is appalling and they don't help their cause by rushing them, added to which they combine the safety briefings with the hard sell of in-flight sales.
I am looking forward to this program. I flew for BA for 35 years and since retiring have flown with FR on about 20 occasions. It will be interesting to see FR from the inside. I accept they are a no frills airline but that should not apply to the safety aspects of the cabin crew job.
No smoke without fire? Lets wait and see!
I call you back
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I have followed this tread from a distance. Ryanair is complying with the law and maybe even beyond.
They are being watched very closely and as such are performing better by the day, not to mention the experience they have gained in this environment.
If anyone is to blame to the alleged destruction of aviation by RYR it is the lawmakers themselves.
They are being watched very closely and as such are performing better by the day, not to mention the experience they have gained in this environment.
If anyone is to blame to the alleged destruction of aviation by RYR it is the lawmakers themselves.
Iriah airlines are effectively self monitoring. The IAA carry out very, very occassional audits on flights. Over 90% of flights are hassle free experiences for crew. The IAA audit a tiny proportion of FR flights. The odds are that the IAA never witness anything unusual.
That does not mean everything is fine.
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You all really shouldn’t get in stress so much. I don’t need a television programme (dubious or not) to tell me what to think. You only have to look at the facts. Take their apparent priorities, extremely low fares to get you on board - followed by poor attitude to customer problems. (a la ValueJet) I have to wonder what corners do they cut to achieve such foolishly low fares? I understand (and like) as passenger that other low cost airlines treat their staff more respectfully, and do not object to union representation. I don’t want anything to do with an airline that exploits hard work staff and penny-pinches right left and centre, emotional television journalism or not.
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Originally Posted by snaga
captjns just a couple of points. Burke was an Irish politician. I think it could fairly be stated that he viewed the role of the Fourth Estate to be in doing exactly what Channel 4 is now doing, which is watching like a hawk how those with power actually use their power and in informing the public. While Burke is a politician beloved of conservatives, I think anyone familiar with this life would be inclined to suspect that he would have looked upon Ryanair's behaviour with an exceedingly sceptical eye.
Also you ask for equal time for Ryanair. Even if a right of response were merited, is that not just a little generous? Today I spoke to a Ryanair pilot who has suffered quite badly at the hands of Ryanair and is currently planning to leave. He will not get any right of reply. He will be given a very hard time if he seeks redress through the courts. He will not be entertained by the IAA. Who speaks for him?
Also you ask for equal time for Ryanair. Even if a right of response were merited, is that not just a little generous? Today I spoke to a Ryanair pilot who has suffered quite badly at the hands of Ryanair and is currently planning to leave. He will not get any right of reply. He will be given a very hard time if he seeks redress through the courts. He will not be entertained by the IAA. Who speaks for him?
representation, I am sure
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I think drawing any parallels between Ryanair and ValuJet is being quite distinctly unfair to FR to be totally honest. Ryanair doesn't even come close to being in the same league as ValuJet.
I expect that Ryanair will institute legal proceedings within milliseconds of the completion of the TV Show - and they will win, because the court will consider facts, not the illusive corporate culture of Ryanair that will probably be depicted in the documentary.
One word of caution to some of you. Calling your customers "Self Loading Freight", and the general, "non aviational" public, "morons" is not likely to advance the reputation of your profession.
One word of caution to some of you. Calling your customers "Self Loading Freight", and the general, "non aviational" public, "morons" is not likely to advance the reputation of your profession.
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I see that Sunfish has now:
- Judged the TV programme
- Judged RYR's following action
- Attended the court case
- Judged the outcome of the court case
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This thread could end up competing with Jet Blast if it carries on growing like this...any publicity is good publicty 
Anyway, those advocating watching the program before forming an opinion...I don't really get where you're coming from.
We can read the correspondence from the TV company and see how weak their 'evidence' is and the utter c
p they're attempting to peddle. They can't have anything else in their arsenal of 'evidnce' as by their own admision, they'd be breaking their industry guidelines if they withheld it from Ryanair. The fact they will not allow Ryanair ANY sort of unedited response stinks too.
As such there are two outcomes as far as I see it regarding the program:
1) They broadcast what they have got and it's going to be a complete damp squib, or;
2) Edit what little they have heavily to attempt to create something from nothing.
It's obvious from the way C4 have advertised the program that it's going to be the latter of the two.
If i'm not mistaken they've been taking out adds in national newspapers showing actresses dressed in Ryanair unifom asleep. That's not a balanced approach to anything and sums up to me exactly what dispatches are planning to do with the program. It's a hatchet job, simple as that.
Remember, they could do this to ANY airline in the country and doubtless come up with the same rubbish.
It's not so much the fact that they're making the program that gets me, it's the way they've gone about it, their utter ignorance of the industry and the fact that they can broadcast this rubbish to an understandably and rightly ignorant public. There is the potential to cause damage to a business that has every right to operate the way it does within the law whether we like it or not and as such I hope they are made to pay for it in the courts.
Bloody fools.
Anyway, those advocating watching the program before forming an opinion...I don't really get where you're coming from.
We can read the correspondence from the TV company and see how weak their 'evidence' is and the utter c
p they're attempting to peddle. They can't have anything else in their arsenal of 'evidnce' as by their own admision, they'd be breaking their industry guidelines if they withheld it from Ryanair. The fact they will not allow Ryanair ANY sort of unedited response stinks too.As such there are two outcomes as far as I see it regarding the program:
1) They broadcast what they have got and it's going to be a complete damp squib, or;
2) Edit what little they have heavily to attempt to create something from nothing.
It's obvious from the way C4 have advertised the program that it's going to be the latter of the two.
If i'm not mistaken they've been taking out adds in national newspapers showing actresses dressed in Ryanair unifom asleep. That's not a balanced approach to anything and sums up to me exactly what dispatches are planning to do with the program. It's a hatchet job, simple as that.Remember, they could do this to ANY airline in the country and doubtless come up with the same rubbish.
It's not so much the fact that they're making the program that gets me, it's the way they've gone about it, their utter ignorance of the industry and the fact that they can broadcast this rubbish to an understandably and rightly ignorant public. There is the potential to cause damage to a business that has every right to operate the way it does within the law whether we like it or not and as such I hope they are made to pay for it in the courts.
Bloody fools.
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Here we are... Page 7 on this thread, BEFORE one minute of the programme has been aired. All we have so far is a load of "He said" "She said" letters, from Ryanair and CH4, and a huge amount of (As they say in Glasgow) Heavy Shoulder work.!
Have a look at the Programme tonight and then lets see what Channel4
says. They are Masters of the hidden camera stuff. Dont forget their expose of heavy drinking of crews on overnights. The damage that did to the fraternity was incalculable. This has the same potential.
I suspect that had Channel 4 chosen any Uk Airline they could put together a "story" in the same fashion. I look forward to seeing what they do or don't do. Will they read MOL's statement in full.?? Let's see.
Have a look at the Programme tonight and then lets see what Channel4
says. They are Masters of the hidden camera stuff. Dont forget their expose of heavy drinking of crews on overnights. The damage that did to the fraternity was incalculable. This has the same potential.
I suspect that had Channel 4 chosen any Uk Airline they could put together a "story" in the same fashion. I look forward to seeing what they do or don't do. Will they read MOL's statement in full.?? Let's see.
Thank you for your comment Paxboy. I'm not judging anything, however I have actually been sued in a commercial dispute and also handled about $60 million dollars worth of complicated legal agreements in the last few years.
Ryanair's letters are beautifully constructed in a particular way in that they are designed not just to convey information, but to be used as evidence.
Ryanair's letters are beautifully constructed in a particular way in that they are designed not just to convey information, but to be used as evidence.
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Topslide6 - your reaction is a tribute to the masterful Ryanair P.R. strategy. You have hopped straight onto "the right" of reply bandwagon. You even write to say that
With respect, that is not a particularly wise position to take. Just for starters, had you considered that the correspondence between Ryanair and C4 is part of the jousting for position that comes with this territory? Impressions are created, notions are perpetuated, bad news is spun positively, weak points from the other side are exaggerated, court cases are prepared for, etc. etc.
All I know for certain is that the claims about the demoted pilot in the correspondence are a complete misrepresentation of the situation. I have read the letter from the IAA to the pilot telling him that he made the correct decision. The Ryanair version of this serves their purposes, but is seriously misleading.
I think we should watch carefully and comment afterwards about what was persuasive and what was not.
.......... those advocating watching the program before forming an opinion...I don't really get where you're coming from.
All I know for certain is that the claims about the demoted pilot in the correspondence are a complete misrepresentation of the situation. I have read the letter from the IAA to the pilot telling him that he made the correct decision. The Ryanair version of this serves their purposes, but is seriously misleading.
I think we should watch carefully and comment afterwards about what was persuasive and what was not.
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BBT,
Don't get me wrong, we all know there are obviously internal issues at Ryanair that need addressing and the demoted Captain is a prime example. I reiterate my point earlier, however, that although there obviously are some real problems, I know guys working there who are as happy as anyone in other airlines....it's just that their gripes are not with crewing and pay
My point is about this program, the 'evidence' they have amassed and the subsequent points that they are trying to raise. It's half-arsed sloppy journalism that is doing nothing to address the real issues, but instead has gone to try and sensationalise things that are pretty much the norm in every airline everyday.
It makes me laugh that they seem to be outraged at Cabin Crew paying 1400 Euros for their training, yet there's no mention of the FO who's probably 70K plus in debt and had to pay £50 to get his CV looked at!!
Don't get me wrong, we all know there are obviously internal issues at Ryanair that need addressing and the demoted Captain is a prime example. I reiterate my point earlier, however, that although there obviously are some real problems, I know guys working there who are as happy as anyone in other airlines....it's just that their gripes are not with crewing and pay
My point is about this program, the 'evidence' they have amassed and the subsequent points that they are trying to raise. It's half-arsed sloppy journalism that is doing nothing to address the real issues, but instead has gone to try and sensationalise things that are pretty much the norm in every airline everyday.
It makes me laugh that they seem to be outraged at Cabin Crew paying 1400 Euros for their training, yet there's no mention of the FO who's probably 70K plus in debt and had to pay £50 to get his CV looked at!!