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15th Mar 2002, 02:16

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Aviatrix69

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swiss

Airline goes bancrupt - small sisters body is used to rebuild the airline around.. .. .It seems that the managment has provided the newly joining pilots from Swissair with a collective working agreement, which puts them senioritywise in front of the crossair pilots. If there will be any restructurisation in the time to come those LXpilots at the bottom of the list will be made redundant.. .If the Crossair pilots do not sign the agreement with Crossair (Swiss), they will be doomed to split off the company, be downsized and operate a regional network. . .Swiss will fly happily everafter with Swissair planes, Swissair pilots, a Board of Directors set up by the same guy who set up the BoD of Swissair. I wonder now where the 15bn debt fits in.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .. .swiss.... So What..It's Still Swissair

15th Mar 2002, 03:02

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Hooking Fell

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Welcome to Switzerland, Inc. !. .. .Did anyone really expect otherwise?

15th Mar 2002, 12:20

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efcop

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the creditors' lawyers will have a field day trying to find the angle so they can get a part of the billions back because looking at it from that point of view it seems more like an unfriendly takeover by swissair which would mean that it is no longer a crossair expansion but a merger. this would open the door for every kind of lawsuit.. .truly excellent start up conditions besides the fact that you will always have two pilots groups glaring at each other. but of course we are all one happy family now

15th Mar 2002, 14:17

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Few Cloudy

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Efcop, swissair already did own 75% of crossair shares before the debacle. They actually sold them to the banks, so a takeover it can't be.. .. .Aviatrix, the crossair pilots were offered a 10% rise, lower pensionable age and better pension. The swissair pilots were offered 30%+/_ pay cut, higher pensionable age and lower pension.. .. .The swissair pilots have shown signs of accepting this. The crossair pilots have walked out.. .. .The reason they walked out is that the A320 family pilots will earn more than the Saab/Embraer boys. For the time being, this means ex swissair pilots until some turnover occurs. In the future, however, the whole short and long range palette will be open for the crossair pilots - not as soon as they would have liked but hey! it's a darn sight better than what they have now.. .. .The management is almost entirely ex crossair.. .. .It was plain from the start that compromises have to be made. I am rather surprised to see who is prepared and who is not prepared to make them.

15th Mar 2002, 15:45

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Shaker One

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The issue here appears to be seniority. Due to the Aeropers seniority model which uses date of joining of both Crossair and Swissair, the bottom of the pile (approx 400 of them) will be made up of primarily Crossair crew. Those from the bankrupt company (Swissair) stand a fair chance of remaining employed therefore, if Swiss is not quite the success they hope it will be. . .. .Doesn't seem an overly fair proposal to me.. .. .----. .Shaker One

15th Mar 2002, 18:16

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Saab 2000 Driver

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S.W.I.S.S. = So What It´s Stil Swissair ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . .. .It´s seniority that Crossair pilots want, NOT money, because the whole thing will probably collapse again within a few months. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . .. .Let´s face it, SR is gone after April 1st and ex-SR pilots will join a new company so it´s only logicaL that SR pilots will have to compromise on seniority. In the proposal of managment LX pilots end up at the bottom and ex-SR pilots on top. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Try and explain that to most LX pilots ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> Despite the fact that CCP is the only legal social partner for Crossair, Crossair managment has now made an (illegal ?!) deal with Aeropers, just to keep them happy for a few more weeks. . .. .We´ll see what happens next. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

15th Mar 2002, 23:49

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FrappsZello

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Saab Driver. .. ."...ex-SR pilots will join a new company..." So will the ex-LX pilots! SWISS is a new company made up of BOTH Swissair and Crossair pilots. The idea that Crossair was somehow taking over the bankrupt SR and that Aeropers were going to be put in their place was always wishful thinking I'm afraid. Aeropers are doing what your union should have been doing - looking after the interests of their members at long last.

16th Mar 2002, 00:26

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ops kid

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FrappsZello: I think you are wrong. Swiss Air Lines Ltd is not legally a new company, rather just a renaming of Crossair AG.

Swissair employees are joining Crossair/Swiss and must be prepared to realise that there are employees already at that company who don't particularly want some new people coming in - especially as these new people may well lead the existing good company down the Swissair road to bankruptcy.

16th Mar 2002, 02:02

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Cisco Kid

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A difficult one this,but if crossair ceased flying would anyone really notice apart from the employees? sadly it seems that the S**t that the LX "team" i.e the employees have been pumped full of by an egocentric father figure has been just that i.e crap.I´m convinced a seniority system will eventually be put in place but as it takes 12-15yrs (took) to command in SR.it´s obvious that the regional guys cannot look forward to overnight improvements. . .. .Fraps has a point,unfortunately LX management can dump on it´s pilots any time they feel like it, you have always caved in and believed the good old "one big happy family routine" sad but true.. .Stand by for removal of lots of LX middle management..very weak, and reduction ,bottom up I hope of the LX pilot corps.. .. .I´m not amused but the new Airline has to survive and it´s nothing to do with Crossair or Swissair, just economics,and please don´t swallow the "all pull together " rubbish just get the best deal you can and hope for some future,in writing of course ,in the new outfit.

16th Mar 2002, 03:30

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Saab 2000 Driver

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<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "...ex-SR pilots will join a new company..." So will the ex-LX pilots! <hr /></blockquote>See ops kid answer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> It´s just a re-branding of LX !. .. . <blockquote>quote:<hr />A difficult one this,but if crossair ceased flying would anyone really notice apart from the employees? <hr /></blockquote>Try forming an alliance without a reasonable European network. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> Try filling those MD11´s and A330´s with connecting pax. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> So far LX has (alsmost) always made money in the last 10 years, can´t really say the same about SR I´m affraid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. . <blockquote>quote:<hr />...you have always caved in... <hr /></blockquote>Not this time dude ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> We know it, and AP knows it too !. .. . <blockquote>quote:<hr />...just get the best deal you can and hope for some future...<hr /></blockquote>Exactly ! That´s why we want seniority and not money !

16th Mar 2002, 04:05

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Cisco Kid

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But you already have seniority, surely it must be obvious that the airlines will continue under their own divisions i.e no changes. One company ,divided into regional and mainline just a rebranding.After all the money was not put up by crossair! just a flag of convenience for an interim period, the LX callsign disappears at the end of the month does it not? it might not be all bad ,remember the oldest sr. captains are now only 52...no retirements for at least 5 yrs.time to command about 17 yrs,could be better to stick with the regional?. .as for connecting pax. the ex crossair numbers were negligible I´m afraid, mostly they were transported by sr. mid and short range aircraft.. .I also believe that SR. actually made money i.e the airline division,creative accounting and sharp practice hid that fact quite well.. .. .Of course I could be wrong but I fear the closest most of you will get to an ex sr. aircraft will be on a pax seat whilst dead heading.. .. .However with a more capable representation a viable merging of seniority lists and a concern pilot model should be reachable,I for one hope it can be so.Don´t turn your nose up at more money it´s a start towards parity and a useful argument at future negotiations,your increases will be more than covered by the cuts inflicted on the ex sr. crews. .the company wins again.

16th Mar 2002, 04:06

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Saab 2000 Driver

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<blockquote>quote:<hr /> bottom up I hope of the LX pilot corps.. . <hr /></blockquote>Hopefully you care more for the PAX you have on board, but somehow I seriously doubt that ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> You make me sick ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

16th Mar 2002, 04:16

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Cisco Kid

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I meant last in, first out, thats how seniority should work,I did not not mean that I hope that junior pilots will be laid off; sorry if you misunderstood´.I admit I expressed this point rather badly.. .I do try not to make the pax sick though!you do seem to have a bit of a short fuse tonight old boy.

16th Mar 2002, 12:28

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efcop

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I find it hardly surprising if fuses are a tad short

16th Mar 2002, 13:31

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<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I meant last in, first out...<hr /></blockquote>Well, following that logic, your ex-SR buddies should be a the bottom of the seniourity list as they will be joining LX. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

16th Mar 2002, 13:31

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skypointer

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<blockquote>quote:<hr /> So far LX has (alsmost) always made money in the last 10 years, can´t really say the same about SR I´m affraid. <hr /></blockquote>Some LX guys just don't seem to get it: Crossair is gone as well!!! They never made money and survived only thanks to cross financing from Swissair! And that won't happen anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . . <blockquote>quote:<hr />It´s just a re-branding of LX !<hr /></blockquote>Dream on Saab Driver <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . . <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Due to the Aeropers seniority model which uses date of joining of both Crossair and Swissair, the bottom of the pile (approx 400 of them) will be made up of primarily Crossair crew <hr /></blockquote>Of course you forgot to mention that 400 SR pilots were already dimissed as the SR fleet got downsized.. .. .SR had in the first few month of 2002 over 70% of seat load factor, while LX had about 35%. So maybe the LX fleet would need some dowsizing too before joining SWISS? If LX kicks out about 400 pilots (not what I hope for) the seniority list will be evenly distributed... Would you prefer this?. .. .Let's face the facts LX pilots get a higher salary, more holidays, a better pension found, and a real carreer outlook, while SR pilots only loose. The seniority will be very fair for LX, as experience on a Saab 340 will have the same value as on a MD11. Not bad a deal. . .. .It seems to me the LX pilots are the big winners. Of course CCP does not see this quite the same way. Perhaps Mr. Häderli should start to think with his brain instead of his dick and he certainly should start representing his own members instead of only working for his megalomania to grow... CCP members would be well advised to replace some board members real soon.

16th Mar 2002, 16:16

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<blockquote>quote:<hr />It seems to me the LX pilots are the big winners. <hr /></blockquote>If it´s really such a good deal for LX, why haven´t we signed it then ? If it´s really such a bad deal for SR, why DID they sign it ? In the AP/LX managment proposal, LX pilots end up at the bottom of the seniority list, and get a small pay increase while SR pilots take a large pay cut, but end up on top of the seniority list. What good is a small pay increase if : you´re at the bottom of the seniority list and you´ll be the first one out if Swiss does not fly as planned ? Trust me, it won´t fly, because it´s too big for Switzerland and the legal risks (liability for SAir Group debts) are substantial. The ex-SR pilot take a +- 30 % paycut, BUT will get back a substantial part of that if Swiss makes money on 2004/5. With other words : if it goes wrong, then LX pilots get fired and ex-SR pilots stay where they are, it it goes right then SR pilots get a pay raise for their hard work ! Who is winner here ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .. . <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Of course you forgot to mention that 400 SR pilots were already dimissed as the SR fleet got downsized.. . <hr /></blockquote>Who went bankrupt again ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. . <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Mr. Häderli should start to think with his brain instead of his dick and he certainly should start representing his own members instead of only working for his megalomania to grow... <hr /></blockquote>First of all, your language is not what I expect from a professional pilot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .Second, most members want the CCP to go ahead with the present course, which was quite clear when attending the base meetings of last week. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

16th Mar 2002, 16:24

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Saab 2000 Driver

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Oh yeah, one more thing about the illegal contract between AP and LX. CCP has filled a lawsuit against the LX managment acceptance of Aeropers as an official social partner. If the CCP wins (likely), then the previous contract of AP and LX is not valid and ex-SR pilots do not have a contract after the 1st of April. If the CCP loses and the Swissair union AP is legally regareded as an official social partner of Swiss, then this might open the door for creditors of the SAir group to start suing Swiss, as this could be regarded as it´s Crossair/Swiss which appears to be doing the unfriendly taking over of Swissair, just like efcop stated on the 15th on this thread. Therefore Crossair/Swiss could be liable for the 12 billion debt of the SAir Group.. .. .Truste me, the details of the contract between AP and LX are not made public yet and on top of that a copy is not even distributed to the LX pilots nor to the only legal social partner of LX, the CCP. Guess why ? There probably is NO contract, becasue it would be illegal and very risky for the above reasons. It´s just a little lollypop to keep AP flying for a few more weeks/months. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />. . . . [ 16 March 2002, 12:52: Message edited by: Saab 2000 Driver ]

16th Mar 2002, 17:55

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skypointer

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<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If it´s really such a bad deal for SR, why DID they sign it ? <hr /></blockquote>AEROPERS signed it, the votation is still due - so let's wait and see.... . <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Trust me, it won´t fly, because it´s too big for Switzerland <hr /></blockquote>Well the SR longhaul network made money with every single destination since Dec 2001. If Swiss is to big, then we are talking about the former LX part that flies virtually empty! If LX were to stay alone, it would have gone bancrupt too in Nov - says the Swiss Stock Exchange Oversight Commission, not me. So you wan't to downsize LX on the cost of the former SR employees? I fear this won't work! LX would have been to big one way or the other. By the way I tell you something about burning money: LX looses in its BSL operation 10 SFr for every 100 SFr turnover. The only part that made money in the last years was the wet lease they did for SR.. . <blockquote>quote:<hr /> First of all, your language is not what I expect from a professional pilot. <hr /></blockquote>Well, probably you're right, but we're not SR anymore and one adapts to the famous LX culture which CCP seems to represent.... . <blockquote>quote:<hr /> illegal contract between AP and LX <hr /></blockquote>Hey, do you really believe in this legalistic bull****? Wake up! It's Swiss law that every worker can choose his own association. SR pilots have chosen AEROPERS and so, if you wan't them to work for you - as SWISS obviously does - you have to talk with them. Simple as it is. CCP seems not to have noticed that they still have a valid contract till 2005. So it is very kind of SWISS to offer them a new one. For the former LX pilots it would be the wise thing to vote for board members that look after their needs as good as AEROPERS does for the SR pilots!. . <blockquote>quote:<hr /> a copy is not even distributed to the LX pilots <hr /></blockquote>Nor was it distributed to the SR pilots so far... But then, it was CCP who walked out of the talks, so I guess they have to wait a few days longer...

16th Mar 2002, 18:18

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Saab 2000 Driver

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<blockquote>quote:<hr /> CCP seems not to have noticed that they still have a valid contract till 2005 <hr /></blockquote>Sure we have noticed that, and guess what !? Since ex-SR pilots will be joining LX, you guys should (legally speaking) also start working under the same contract. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> That also means at the bottom of the seniority list by the way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Swiss is nice enough to give you a second chance to a job in aviation so be gratefull. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. . <blockquote>quote:<hr /> It's Swiss law that every worker can choose his own association. <hr /></blockquote>Remember, Swiss is NOT a new company. It´s Crossair which is expanding it´s business and rebranding into Swiss. In the present (and only valid) working contract between LX and CCP it is clearly stated that CCP is the only legal social partner, also if Crossair decides to change it´s name (to Swiss maybe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> ) or sets up daughter companies (like Swiss Regional maybe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> ), even then the CCP is the only legal union and our GAV is the only valid contract. Live with it or set up your own airline ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />. . . . [ 16 March 2002, 14:25: Message edited by: Saab 2000 Driver ]

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