swiss

[edriver]

The Board of CCP, the Crossair pilots’ union, issued a statement on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 claiming that “ the Crossair Management and Aeropers, the Swissair pilots’ union, yesterday reached agreement on a new contract. This contravenes the regulations of the existing Collective Labour Agreement (GAV). With this we were being forced to accept this illegal document and to sign the new contract”.. .. .As you can see from this crossair info flash of March 12, even management admits that it is illegal.. .. .Existing CLA means there is no new company. So be glad that we are generous to consider the zipper model and that there are talks about a CLA.

[msmolski]

Saab 2000 Driver :. .. .I have read your profile and, judging by it, you are a new f/o, hired last year, or so. Now, try to be objective and tell me if it would be fair if YOUR seniority was higher than eg. a SR captain's with 20 yrs of line experience? Should YOU (according to the seniority) be promoted first to a higher type, or become an instructor? I don't think so. And im not saying this as a SR guy (I'm not one, nor even know any). Furthermore, I have been a fresh f/o for my company just three months ago and I was laid off. And though I wish I hadn't been laid off, I don't think it'd be fair if they have fired someone more senior instead. Neither from my company, nor from its daughter company. Just trying to think logical...

[Cisco Kid]

so there you have it what a can of worms!,seniority is a big issue but no responsible board of directors or insurance company would entertain Crossair crews being promoted almost overnight onto large aircraft it canīt be done; it can be achieved in time, and should be, but for the moment no easy solution in sight.. .. .As for the legal aspects,I feel the new company may decide upon whomever they wish as a social partner, the LX rebranding is a very tenuous argument, and remember we are in Switzerland where the law tends to bend according to who puts up the working capital not Crossair...one would face a long and exhausting court case to even hope for success in this scenario.. .. .So as before;a regional airline,sadly to be reduced as no SR capital injections anymore...and mainline the old Swissair who have already cut back sufficiently to provide a fair chance of success..itīs no use hoping for a merged list just before the s**t hits the fan,Seniority didnīt save the jobs of all the SR guys over 52 as it should have; remember ..in Switzerland the goalposts move quicker than anywhere else..the remnants of a feudal master- slave system are still in place.This CAN be worked out but it needs talent on ALL sides the negotiation skills required are largely unavailable..my advice for what itīs worth ..dig into your pockets and hire a professional from outside the country..good luck to all concerned.In the end if SR. stop flying for a day it would cost millions if crossair did the same the impact on the bottom line woul be negligable itīs all about money and aircraft size.

[edriver]

Mycontrols,. .. .I am a first year crossair FO. And I can't see the fact that because somebody is more experienced, deserves a place in front of me on the senioritylist. . .. .Your vision is that when a Cathay Pacific veteran with 24 years of experience on a 747, starts working for crossair, his place on the seniority list will be determined according his date of entry at Cathay Pacific because of his experience!!!!!. .. .Pure madness

[edriver]

Cisco,. .. .Again,. .. .ITS ALL ABOUT KEEPING MY JOB.. .. .And as far my compromise goes, I am prepared to share the risk with swissair pilots. Not solely 600 crossair pilots at the bottom of the new seniority list. Unacceptable.. .. .As far I'm concerned, they can keep their big airplanes

[edriver]

And cisco,. .. .Swissair didn't cutback. They went bankrupt.. .. .Crossair was the beacon for a second chance.

[efcop]

cisco,. .. .you seem to be rather rational about it all. i'd be interested in chatting with you over a real beer in the real world.. [email protected]

[msmolski]

No, that's different.If it were LX and Cathay Pacific, I would also consider it pure madness. No matter what the "legalities" are, SR and LX are and were closely linked together and since they're merging, a common seniority list seems to me a sensible solution. No offence LX guys, just trying to present the point of view of someone not directly involved in this conflict. Good luck to you and hope you reach an agreement satisfying BOTH sides.

[Cisco Kid]

e- driver I see your point ,but the illusion that LX took over anyone is pure propaganda,itīs a legal ploy to avoid massive debt repayment by Swissair,Iīm sorry you may be under the impression that it is otherwise and I appreciate your concern.. . I hope your job is secure, but if you "follow the money" (Banks and Bund) you will notice that as mere Pilots our voices are small.Some people got out whilst the going was good,MS perhaps? But Seniority was pretty meaningless even in the old established SR. culture, a total rethink of contractual obligations from employers and employees,bankrupt or not, is necessary to achieve some form of security in this precarious profession.. .. .A small example might be the millions spent on a revamp of the Aircraft ,exterior and interior, whilst thousands of ex employees go without a penny in compensation, as a true blue capitalist I feel ashamed, something is badly wrong and must be addressed.Already the "new" capital is being pissed away.

[Hunter58]

Guys. .. .you are making me sick, alltogether!!!. .. .You just got 1 f**king BILLION Swiss Frances from MY tax money to have a fully functional airline by the end of the month, and the only thing you care about is a stupid seniority list! If that's you're only godd*mn problem, I'd change with you in a microsecond!. .. .You don't get a second chance and you have to make a full blown international airline within the next few days. So put aside the old crap and start working. Otherwise I can guarantee you that your stupid job will be your last one ever at the controls of an aircraft with HB- Immatriculation! You have an obligation towards the public in this country, so stop the bu***hit!. .. .And for any LX driver who thinks his company had piles of money: dream on!!!. .. .And now you get back to your seats and do what the public pays you to right now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

[FrappsZello]

efcop, Saab Driver and other LX fans. It does not matter whether you and CCP are correct in your thinking or not. If you decide to strike it will be back to ops normal again - a Regional airline ie you and SWISS, consisting of the rump of the old Swissair. The big money boys have decided, they WANT Swissair under the guise of SWISS, not Crossair. You are correct in saying that it was Swissair that went bankrupt, BUT, this was not due to the airline operations being unprofitable, but because of inept management and advisors, investing in basket case airlines rather than in the strengths of Swissair. Why do you think that the Swiss government was prepared to sink so much money into Swissair to keep it going through the winter and twisted so many arms to get the necessary finance in place to get SWISS up and running before Summer? To create a bigger Crossair or for a rebirth of Swissair under a new name? The events of the last few days gives you the answer! Moritz Suter who was against this plan was, together with his board, unceremonously dumped because at the end of the day the only thing that counts is profit. A strike by the Swissair pilots is a bigger threat to profits than one from Crossair pilots.. .. .Regarding seniority. There is never an easy solution to this dilema, just ask any pilot who has been through a takeover or merger in the past. CCP and Dose have always maintained that any new company will be an enlargement of Crossair and therefore the Swissair pilots will be "joining" at the bottom. Aeropers were never likely to accept that and if they are any kind of union (debatable) they should not either. Crossair did not pay one rappen for Swissair they were given it by friendly bankers - gratis. Aeropers and it appears Mr Bouw and company regard SWISS as a new company made up of Swissair and Crossair, with each group flying their own equipment in the future. With this in mind the solution is fair. Hard on you perhaps but perhaps you were too optimistic in the first place.. .. .This whole sorry affair over the past 6 months has been handled appallingly by all concerned from management to banks to BOTH Unions. It is a pity that Aeropers and CCP could not have united and got a satisfactory solution for all concerned instead of taking cheap shots and trying to marginalize each other at every opportunity.

[gofer]

FZ U brought it up - what's Moritz doing now ?. .. .He's not the kind of guy to not do something... My guess is watch this space and where he's flying.. .. .Personal opinion the CCP/LX guys are less wrong, but its one of those 'reality strikes' situations as Hunter says - do what the PAX want - and with a smile - and don't rock the boat or their schedules - coz this time there definately won't be double dipping at Hunter's or my tax money - sorry kids.. .. .PS. Yes Swiss needs the feeder PAX, but don't forget current type ratings also - if U drive an S2K never mind seniority, when push comes to shove, out will be the lowest in seniority in the S2K club - U can't just move a 330/340 or an MD11 driver across whatever rules Berne is willing to invent or bend (not saying that perhaps an MD11 (or 330/340) guy (gal) can't learn fast, just that there would be holes that can't immediately be legally and acceptably filled overnight - and the visibility of not flying - would be just too much to keep the new shop alive).. .. .All that says I guess is that the MS9/80 drivers are those really at risk - lose rather than cross train !! Sure, but that has been clearly on the cards since October and day 1 of 26/26 in all the realists minds - the risk there I would have thought is that more leave than are needed to operate - if they are being street smart and looking after No.1 first.. .--------------------------------------------------------. .just an opinion - but watch out - the vultures are circling!

[Saab 2000 Driver]

Frappszello is absolutely right, it's Swissair under the guise of Swiss. Seperate uniforms, seperate contracts. Just a new paint job. A dangerous legal cocktail. Wait until the creditors will find out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .. .By the way, everybody always talks about the ex-SR people taking a pay cut, but it's not a pay cut ! Let me quote Mr Kurt Renggli, Head of Human Resources : "In addition to which the Aeropers leadership agreed to a 2 year salary reduction, in form of a „start up bonus“ for the new airline to help to reduce their deficit. " In other words, it's just a temporary measure, so do the ex-SR people really lose so much ?

[rock_the_tower]

May be we can learn from other cases.. .When PanAm got busted, some of them were taken by Delta as far as I know. How was the integration, merger, takeover or whatever there ?. .And how did the former TWA-pilots fit into the American team ? What about Hawaiian and Aloha ?. .Anybody knows something ? (to be honest, I haven't yet screened the pprune-forums concerning this question).. .. .Just curious to learn from others. We would just lose so much energy and time if we would reinvent the wheel again...... .. .Cheers. .. .rtt

[FrappsZello]

rtt. You cannot apply what happened to PanAm to this fiasco. Normally, when a company goes bankrupt thats it. The a/c get sold and the pilots are out on the street looking for work. Any work forthcoming means starting at the bottom of the seniority list. With SWISS however it is different. The bankrupt company (Swissair) was kept going while finance was obtained and legal proceedures found to avoid the new company being liable for debts. On start-up day all the hardware and resources of Swissair are simply transferred across together with Crossair's to form SWISS. All the flights are flying to the same destinations as the day before with the same crews operating them, being briefed by the same ops crews, getting their mail from the same mailbox as the day before with the only difference the callsign! Working out the seniority - a nightmare! How can you justify telling an MD11 Captain of 30 years service he now has to be below the most junior FO in Crossair?

[edriver]

That's why we proposed the zipper system frapzello. And what do we have to swallow,. .. .a PROBATION PERIOD for all Crossair pilots for three months with one week notice.. .. .With this kind of proposals, I'd rather go down with a fight then give in for the sake of public opinion. Sorry Hunter.

[Aviatrix69]

Have been away a few days enjoying myself on my offdays... get away from it all as well. Havn't thought this thread to be still on when I come back.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .I'd just like to say how I experience it. I do not say it's the truth, but I think in a way there are as many truths as individuals.. .. .I am a junior F/O with LX, on one of the planes likely to desappear quite soon. I have been to the infomeetings by CCP and have heard with astonishement, how those guys have been dropping their weapons, bringing in good ideas and tremendous efforts to achieve a solution. Telling the AP, that we all would fight for their cause, accept a lower salary if only we could find one single contract, i.e. senioritylist for all. Coldbloodedly we have been turned down, being told that the day, when we would all work under the same contract will never dawn.. .. .I cannot accept to take all the risk and blame and lose my job, as I am employed under a valid CLA by a company which was healthy. Now all that's left is a carcasse, with transplants from a zombieSR, a management under severe pressure from the VR making too high concessions to AP at a time they should not have had, and a flight ops chief threatened by heart-problems. Voultures soaring.... .Worst case about it: they propose us a deal so rotten we cannot do anything else but turn it down, but in public there's only talk about the positive sides, and misunderstandings. And in the end it's us who is to blame. Clever strategy.. .. .As it has been said before, I cannot do anything but fight and talk and walk with determined steps, because I believe in certain universal things as justice, trust and fairness. For my personal integrity it is vital not to give in, as I would crumble if I had to. If I'm being forced to do so by my management or anybody else I have trusted and supported, I would have to walk away. I feel very sad, I can understand the political pressure and all, but I despise the circumstances making people take decisions against their inner knowledge of decency and karma.. .. .I have known lots of the SR F/O's dismissed. It's been very tough on them. But they have been able to blame mismanagement, and the collective hatred of the swiss people has supported them.. .For us now, it is our own collegues, people some of us should be capable one day to work together on a flight deck who dig our grave. Even worse, they give us the shovel, put a gun against our head and tell us to dig.. .. .So go and shoot me. I won't dig

[Hunter58]

Well. .. .you have another 10 days to work it out! And then eithe the company works, or all of you have no jobs and cannot go out of your appartment of house without some mob throwing rotten eggs at you!. .. .You have received ONE BILLION in tax money, so you don't have any rights anymore. Sorry pals, but that IS reality! You have only one thing to do: make it happen!. .. .This has nothing to do with fairness or anything else. It was decided that the company exists, and therefore it has to. About the rest, nobody cares, so unless you want to find yourself in a nightmare, accept it and work diplomatically.. .. .It's time CCP learns how to proceed form Aeropers! Because the show given right now is not to the public's gusto, and so you have no possible way of not loosing any fight at this time. You simply cannot win in short time.

[Cisco Kid]

All very sad but perhaps the perceived health of LX was closely tied to the cross financing and wet lease deals offered by SR....who knows..but the death of the old SR will certainly have an effect on the condition of LX.lay offs are an unfortunate fact in our often poorly managed industry ,in this case one could say criminally mismanaged,remember to spare a thought for all captains above 52 who lost their jobs as well,talk about losing experience and know how,..another brilliant decision for which other airlines are very grateful,mostly competitors of SR.. .. .I wish, as has been said, a solution could have been created years ago,with an integrated system allowing opportunities for all to move between regional and mainline(for want of a better word)this was not supported by LX management nor by AP.. .it will prove to be a costly mistake.Personal greed and shortsightedness have let us all down.

[FrappsZello]

Hey Goddess, I hope you will be able to find some inner strength to continue. Believe me it is not only you LX pilots who are not happy with the way things have turned out. I do think however that you are 100% correct in blaming all on Aeropers. I think your CCP president has a lot to answer for. The letter he sent to Aeropers last October inviting the Swissair pilots to join CCP - at the BOTTOM! was at best stupid and at worst insulting. This has been the stance of CCP ever since. To try and get an advantage out of the demise of Swissair to the cost of the pilots of Swissair. You can hardly expect them to welcome a proposal to work to gether at the 11th hour with open arms. Your board only approached Aeropers once they realized that their stance on seniority was getting nowhere. Now the boot is on the other foot and unless there is a very big change from the new management, I do not think that even a strike will get you anywhere. In fact I think it will only be to the advantage of Aeropers. They hold the better cards and have played the hand better too.. .Aeropers are not blameless. At times they have behaved pathetically and have been insulting in the extreme, but at the end of the day, they are doing everything they can to look after the best interests of their pilots. This after all is what they were voted in to do. I do not think that all the Swissair pilots are too happy with the new proposals but I do not think they are going to be stupid enough to shoot themselves in the foot and lose the inititive that has been given to them by CCP.