Virgin Skipper has a Flipper... NOT
I, as many others, was just going to skirt around putting comment on to a very interesting thread as no one really knows what really happened and can only guess.
That was until I had the misfortune to read the contributions of some helicopter pilot who, from his profile, has a rather inflated ego.
I would suggest to this person that, when he has been around a bit and has some experience of the real aviation world, he will be in a position to justify his comments.
I say this as one, who has in the past had the dubious task of literally retraining military retirees into the real world and demands of flying in a civvy environment, and I would emphasise that this applies only to the very few. Most of you mates are brilliant but there is always one, isn't there ?
Come down from your ivory (I'm a BIG helicopter pilot) tower and get real.
Sleeve.( One time stalwart of Auntie Bettie's Aero Club.)
That was until I had the misfortune to read the contributions of some helicopter pilot who, from his profile, has a rather inflated ego.
I would suggest to this person that, when he has been around a bit and has some experience of the real aviation world, he will be in a position to justify his comments.
I say this as one, who has in the past had the dubious task of literally retraining military retirees into the real world and demands of flying in a civvy environment, and I would emphasise that this applies only to the very few. Most of you mates are brilliant but there is always one, isn't there ?
Come down from your ivory (I'm a BIG helicopter pilot) tower and get real.
Sleeve.( One time stalwart of Auntie Bettie's Aero Club.)
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Those who have spent some time at check-in will have seen the amount of passengers (customers) who offer sarcastic, abusive comments. Many of these are directed at the staff checking them in. If every time one of these passengers was denied boarding the flights would leave with a definate lack of bums on seats.
Welcome to the real world capt Crook!
Welcome to the real world capt Crook!
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WeatherJinx,
''From the available evidence, it appears that his episode has everything to do with people skills and nothing whatever to do with air safety''.
Sorry old chap but total CR@P.
A terrorist is still a terrorist even when not holding a weapon.
Someone who shows the ability to cause trouble on the ground shows the ability to do so in the air where the options to deal with it become much more limited.
As has been said in other threads....
keep the problem on the ground, don't let it get onto the aircraft or into the air.
Cheers.
''From the available evidence, it appears that his episode has everything to do with people skills and nothing whatever to do with air safety''.
Sorry old chap but total CR@P.
A terrorist is still a terrorist even when not holding a weapon.
Someone who shows the ability to cause trouble on the ground shows the ability to do so in the air where the options to deal with it become much more limited.
As has been said in other threads....
keep the problem on the ground, don't let it get onto the aircraft or into the air.
Cheers.
Bringer of Wx
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Stormcloud
Some loose definitions for you to ponder:
To$$ers
We're talking about a bloke who did a one-man slow-handclap and made a remark which he probably thought was funny. Perhaps it would have been better aimed at Virgin's PR department than at the replacement crew, but it is not hard to see why he felt frustrated.
Terrorists
Usually outwardly controlled, highly intelligent individuals, who display all the hallmarks of model passengers when airside and do nothing to warrant attention until airborne.
People Skills
Having the ability to spot the difference, and excercising authority accordingly; demonstrating both good judgement and proportionality.
Now please expand on why my point of view is 'total CR@P', as you so eloquently put it?
Some loose definitions for you to ponder:
To$$ers
We're talking about a bloke who did a one-man slow-handclap and made a remark which he probably thought was funny. Perhaps it would have been better aimed at Virgin's PR department than at the replacement crew, but it is not hard to see why he felt frustrated.
Terrorists
Usually outwardly controlled, highly intelligent individuals, who display all the hallmarks of model passengers when airside and do nothing to warrant attention until airborne.
People Skills
Having the ability to spot the difference, and excercising authority accordingly; demonstrating both good judgement and proportionality.
Now please expand on why my point of view is 'total CR@P', as you so eloquently put it?
Last edited by WeatherJinx; 12th Nov 2003 at 19:29.
Ohcirrej
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Someone who shows the ability to cause trouble on the ground shows the ability to do so in the air where the options to deal with it become much more limited.
Or, if another passenger before boarding was heard to be having a heated argument on a mobile (with maxalt maybe
). *Whoop-whoop* this guy has violent tendencies. Nope, not getting on.
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Crook might be a good pilot but he doesn't appear to be much of a people person. Why didn't he let Warshaw make his apology, then read him the riot act, then let him sweat a bit as Iceman did so commendably (page 5) and finally let him fly if he promised to shut up for the next few hours? It would have defused the situation and probably impressed upon the rest of the pax who was in charge. Life is all about compromise, after all.
And finally sense is beginning to prevail on this thread.
My My were up to 6 pages in this thread, with friends having been made and enemies ensured.
I'm not sure how much readership this kind of thread gets beyond pilots, but the sure loser in all this is going to be the Virgin PR among passengers.
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A really interesting thread.
For a moment, lets put aside what actually happened, and assume that all that happened was as reported in the newspapers.
What surprises me are the number of contributors who appear to take the view that the Captain was entirely justified to refuse boarding to a passenger solely on the basis of the reported story.
For every right there is a duty. In this case the right to refuse boarding is accompanied by the duty to excercise the right reasonably. IMHO, and getting away from any personalities or unreported facts, to exclude a passenger on the basis of the story is unreasonable. I didn't think that I'd see so many Ppruners disagree, and it certainly gives me new perceptions into the industry.
cur
For a moment, lets put aside what actually happened, and assume that all that happened was as reported in the newspapers.
What surprises me are the number of contributors who appear to take the view that the Captain was entirely justified to refuse boarding to a passenger solely on the basis of the reported story.
For every right there is a duty. In this case the right to refuse boarding is accompanied by the duty to excercise the right reasonably. IMHO, and getting away from any personalities or unreported facts, to exclude a passenger on the basis of the story is unreasonable. I didn't think that I'd see so many Ppruners disagree, and it certainly gives me new perceptions into the industry.
cur
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A terrorist is still a terrorist even when not holding a weapon.
He's either a terrorist or he isn't.
Ohcirrej
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Wasn't the guy allowed to fly on a later flight? At what point was he no longer a "threat"?
Human nature being what it is, I'll bet he was probably more p*ssed off than when the "incident" occured. Would this not have made him more of a risk?
Human nature being what it is, I'll bet he was probably more p*ssed off than when the "incident" occured. Would this not have made him more of a risk?
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Good point Onan
shoulda sent him to camp X Ray clearly... hehe! Of course after removing his shoes and ALL the fillings in his teeth lest he turned out to be the "Mercury filling Bomber"
shoulda sent him to camp X Ray clearly... hehe! Of course after removing his shoes and ALL the fillings in his teeth lest he turned out to be the "Mercury filling Bomber"
<<it certainly gives me new perceptions into the industry.>>
Not necessarily - you'd need the opinions of a significant number of major airline skippers for that.
ps: I believe my wife thinks I should have your 'nom-de-web'
Not necessarily - you'd need the opinions of a significant number of major airline skippers for that.
ps: I believe my wife thinks I should have your 'nom-de-web'
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Interesting thread indeed... held back until now, but everyone else is having a hack at it, so...
First, Capt. Crook was there, we weren't. Those who know him have testified to his character. He exercised the prerogative of his command, end of story. It's not for anyone to second-guess him who wasn't there.
The very most that should happen is a few gentle words of advice, in private, IF, after a full investigation, taking statements from pax & gate staff, there's some question as to whether it could have been handled better.
Now, *we* are free to voice whatever opinions we like - and many have! IF we take the published account as the whole truth, I'd have to wonder... presumably most of the pax were Brits. After an overnight delay, a bit of ironic applause and a couple of good-natured inoffensive comments aren't exactly earth-shattering... they call for some witty repartee in return, to set the flight off on the right note, not clapping anyone who dares say anything in irons! (literal or metaphorical).
Two big 'ifs' there - if the account was accurate, and if the comments etc. were good-natured. Only Capt. Crook was there to judge the tone & body language, he made a command decision which deserves support.
I've only ever received an ironic 'well done' at the other end - after a less-then-creditable landing!
I also once received the following:
'Have you called the fire truck?'.... 'errrrr no, why?'... 'you planted it, you should water it...'
R1
First, Capt. Crook was there, we weren't. Those who know him have testified to his character. He exercised the prerogative of his command, end of story. It's not for anyone to second-guess him who wasn't there.
The very most that should happen is a few gentle words of advice, in private, IF, after a full investigation, taking statements from pax & gate staff, there's some question as to whether it could have been handled better.
Now, *we* are free to voice whatever opinions we like - and many have! IF we take the published account as the whole truth, I'd have to wonder... presumably most of the pax were Brits. After an overnight delay, a bit of ironic applause and a couple of good-natured inoffensive comments aren't exactly earth-shattering... they call for some witty repartee in return, to set the flight off on the right note, not clapping anyone who dares say anything in irons! (literal or metaphorical).
Two big 'ifs' there - if the account was accurate, and if the comments etc. were good-natured. Only Capt. Crook was there to judge the tone & body language, he made a command decision which deserves support.
I've only ever received an ironic 'well done' at the other end - after a less-then-creditable landing!
I also once received the following:
'Have you called the fire truck?'.... 'errrrr no, why?'... 'you planted it, you should water it...'
R1
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WeatherJinx
To$$ers - I can understand the frustration but
A. It was not the crews fault
B. That does'nt excuse the behaviour.
Terrorists -
Meerly making a point, I wasn't accusing him of being a terrorist.
However, as Jerricho pointed out, we all have the ability to cause trouble in the air and this guy has indicated his manner already, giving a small time frame to make a decision about his present/future state of mind and likely actions.
People skills -
Having the ability to spot the difference: In a few seconds, without a Psychy expert in tow and being Human!
Excercising authority accordingly; demonstrating both good judgement and proportionality: Only he can know on the day and at the moment what is appropriate and proportional and in so doing excercise his good judgement. He did!
and finally = Air Safety.
''nothing whatever to do with air safety''.
The captain is responsible for ALL of it.
If he has reasonable doubt about anything to do with the safety of the flight, he is obligated to act to ensure the safety of everyone and everything onboard.
That is why, IMVHO, I totally disagree with your posting.
Being human myself, I'm happy to withdraw the C**P part.
On a personal note, I have the advantage of having flown with Simon at VS and totally endorse the other character witnesses who have spoken up in his defence. I do not believe he is the kind of bloke who would act in a petulant manner for the sake of it.
However, since no one who has posted so far appears to have been there, it could be said we are all talking £$%P!
Cheers.
To$$ers - I can understand the frustration but
A. It was not the crews fault
B. That does'nt excuse the behaviour.
Terrorists -
Meerly making a point, I wasn't accusing him of being a terrorist.
However, as Jerricho pointed out, we all have the ability to cause trouble in the air and this guy has indicated his manner already, giving a small time frame to make a decision about his present/future state of mind and likely actions.
People skills -
Having the ability to spot the difference: In a few seconds, without a Psychy expert in tow and being Human!
Excercising authority accordingly; demonstrating both good judgement and proportionality: Only he can know on the day and at the moment what is appropriate and proportional and in so doing excercise his good judgement. He did!
and finally = Air Safety.
''nothing whatever to do with air safety''.
The captain is responsible for ALL of it.
If he has reasonable doubt about anything to do with the safety of the flight, he is obligated to act to ensure the safety of everyone and everything onboard.
That is why, IMVHO, I totally disagree with your posting.
Being human myself, I'm happy to withdraw the C**P part.
On a personal note, I have the advantage of having flown with Simon at VS and totally endorse the other character witnesses who have spoken up in his defence. I do not believe he is the kind of bloke who would act in a petulant manner for the sake of it.
However, since no one who has posted so far appears to have been there, it could be said we are all talking £$%P!
Cheers.
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When I was a brand new Captain, about a year in Command, I was once on a Prestwick - Dublin flight.
During boarding one of the ground staff came to the cockpit and told me to have a look at the last passenger in the boarding queue.
The gentleman in question was wearing a pin stripe business suit, cashmere overcoat, carrying an expensive looking leather breifcase. He was immaculately groomed, and looked about 50 years old.
The dispatcher informed me that some of the check in staff had been verbally abused by him, and the same at the gate, and that his breath smelled of alcohol. He asked me what I wanted to do about him.
I had a look at this man as he stood quietly in the queue, no sign of any unsteadiness on his feet, bothering no-one. I called in the CCM and told her what the dispatcher had said. I asked her to have a very good look at him as he boarded and I told her that if she was in any way uncertain about him I'd have him off the flight before we closed the doors.
She came back to me 5 minutes later to say he was fine, no problem.
So we departed Prestwick for Dublin.
Duriing the cruise, about abeam Belfast, the CCM called me on the interphone to tell me the nice gentleman in question had just told her he would blow up the aircraft if she didn't serve him a drink immediately!
Now, of course he was joking. Wasn't he? But do you joke about BOMBS in AIRCRAFT? What to do? I could easily divert into Belfast and be on the ground in minutes! Have the ****er arrested.
Then what?
Lots of paperwork, and explaining to my FOM.
And of course the truth would out...I had been warned about his behaviour already in Prestwick!
Yet I chose to accept him! What a DUMBASS I am!
So what would you have done?
In the end I just told my CCM to give him his drink and ignore him, and let me know if anything worse developed.
We landed safely in Dublin 20 minutes later.
The bastard walked off scott free.
But I learned a valuable lesson that day, one I'll never forget.
NEVER, EVER, CARRY A MANIFEST TROUBLEMAKER ON YOUR AIRCRAFT.
If you do you might find yourself in the ****, big time, and you'll hang anyway for being so 'tolerant'.
Older, and Wiser.
During boarding one of the ground staff came to the cockpit and told me to have a look at the last passenger in the boarding queue.
The gentleman in question was wearing a pin stripe business suit, cashmere overcoat, carrying an expensive looking leather breifcase. He was immaculately groomed, and looked about 50 years old.
The dispatcher informed me that some of the check in staff had been verbally abused by him, and the same at the gate, and that his breath smelled of alcohol. He asked me what I wanted to do about him.
I had a look at this man as he stood quietly in the queue, no sign of any unsteadiness on his feet, bothering no-one. I called in the CCM and told her what the dispatcher had said. I asked her to have a very good look at him as he boarded and I told her that if she was in any way uncertain about him I'd have him off the flight before we closed the doors.
She came back to me 5 minutes later to say he was fine, no problem.
So we departed Prestwick for Dublin.
Duriing the cruise, about abeam Belfast, the CCM called me on the interphone to tell me the nice gentleman in question had just told her he would blow up the aircraft if she didn't serve him a drink immediately!
Now, of course he was joking. Wasn't he? But do you joke about BOMBS in AIRCRAFT? What to do? I could easily divert into Belfast and be on the ground in minutes! Have the ****er arrested.
Then what?
Lots of paperwork, and explaining to my FOM.
And of course the truth would out...I had been warned about his behaviour already in Prestwick!
Yet I chose to accept him! What a DUMBASS I am!
So what would you have done?
In the end I just told my CCM to give him his drink and ignore him, and let me know if anything worse developed.
We landed safely in Dublin 20 minutes later.
The bastard walked off scott free.
But I learned a valuable lesson that day, one I'll never forget.
NEVER, EVER, CARRY A MANIFEST TROUBLEMAKER ON YOUR AIRCRAFT.
If you do you might find yourself in the ****, big time, and you'll hang anyway for being so 'tolerant'.
Older, and Wiser.
Last edited by maxalt; 13th Nov 2003 at 17:31.
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That's right. So a well-dressed person pitches up at the desk and is told that they can't get the window seat they wanted, or the flight is delayed. ''Oh great'' they say sarcastically. Throw them off, they are obviously going to cause trouble for the entire flight. No in fact they are probably a terrorist - call the cops and have them detained.
Get real. It's all about delicate egos being bruised, nothing about safety.
Get real. It's all about delicate egos being bruised, nothing about safety.
Last edited by Arty; 13th Nov 2003 at 07:06.
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Removed the trouble maker!!!
If I buy a mobile phone for only 100£ and it doesn't work, you can bet thet the guy who sold it to me will have to do any effort to resolve the problem. TROUBLE maker? I don't think so, just getting what's normal.
That passenger was not at all a trouble maker, he just was sick an tired of waiting announcements of delyas for 15 hours or so.
He was very gentle, for that money I could have gotten a lot worse.
I travel as a pilot on duty and on commercial positionings many times a month and sometimes you get treated like **** by this check-in, ticket and groud staff personel, even by the cabin crew... i wonder if you need a university degree to be cabin crew because very often they have their nose much higher then FL500
Customer care, where are you??
If I buy a mobile phone for only 100£ and it doesn't work, you can bet thet the guy who sold it to me will have to do any effort to resolve the problem. TROUBLE maker? I don't think so, just getting what's normal.
That passenger was not at all a trouble maker, he just was sick an tired of waiting announcements of delyas for 15 hours or so.
He was very gentle, for that money I could have gotten a lot worse.
I travel as a pilot on duty and on commercial positionings many times a month and sometimes you get treated like **** by this check-in, ticket and groud staff personel, even by the cabin crew... i wonder if you need a university degree to be cabin crew because very often they have their nose much higher then FL500
Customer care, where are you??