Virgin Skipper has a Flipper... NOT
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Arty, ebbr2, I'd guess that neither of you have ever had command of a large aircraft, and therefore never had to face the fact that you shoulder massive responsibility...ALONE...for your decisions, good or bad.
It seems to me now that this thread is dividing into two camps. Those who've been there and done that and learned a lesson the hard way (like me) and the rest, who have yet to learn (or are SLF masquerading as pilots).
Lets cut to the chase.
To any passengers out there reading this who feel that you can act in any way you choose simply because you've bought the ticket....here's a tip.
You might be lucky and get away with it some of the time, but the chances are equally good you're going to meet me, or someone like me, who will not tolerate any bull**** and will disembark you at the first whiff of trouble.
Your call.
Just remember your manners.
It seems to me now that this thread is dividing into two camps. Those who've been there and done that and learned a lesson the hard way (like me) and the rest, who have yet to learn (or are SLF masquerading as pilots).
Lets cut to the chase.
To any passengers out there reading this who feel that you can act in any way you choose simply because you've bought the ticket....here's a tip.
You might be lucky and get away with it some of the time, but the chances are equally good you're going to meet me, or someone like me, who will not tolerate any bull**** and will disembark you at the first whiff of trouble.
Your call.
Just remember your manners.
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............ in which case Capt Maxalt and his FO will do everything within their power and a bit beyond to try and get you there safely and on time, while the FAs will bust a gut to give you the best possible service with the means at our disposal.
Because despite what some people here seem to think, we are well aware of who pays our wages and of the fact that you all have a choice.
.......... and don't get too worked up about the manners either; we're regrettably used to being shouted at because we have run out of your choice of sarnie, and we wouldn't dream of off-loading you just because you mutter 'f**cking c**t' under your breath when we tell you that 4 pieces of carry-on luggage really is a bit much....
Because despite what some people here seem to think, we are well aware of who pays our wages and of the fact that you all have a choice.
.......... and don't get too worked up about the manners either; we're regrettably used to being shouted at because we have run out of your choice of sarnie, and we wouldn't dream of off-loading you just because you mutter 'f**cking c**t' under your breath when we tell you that 4 pieces of carry-on luggage really is a bit much....
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maxalt
Where you trained to demonstrate such breathaking arrogance? Regretably, you sound just like the type of Captain that airlines could well do without.
You should remember one thing. Its not difficult so it will be easy to understand.
You are the driver. That will no doubt scar your ego but that is all you are and all I was. What you also have to be is a PR representative of your company. You abide by the SOP's, you abide by the ANO and you use your capacity as Captain to ensure the welfare of your passengers at all stages of flight from gate to gate.
If you behave in a manner that is detrimental to your company, which can include any number of dillys, you still must try hard to be nice to the passengers. You also have to try to understand that if you upset them you are totally responsible for the end result. Which can, as in this case, CAUSE a sarcastic comment - no doubt of the kind you and I make often during the course of s shopping trip or such. We don't, of course, know for sure that incident took place but we assume so.
That then is the substance. What ACTUALLY happened in my view - IF - the above scenario is correct, is that the Captain has a major trip in his electrical system - his brain. There was absolutely (I won't use your emphasis on the word) no need to react in the way he did. If he had, however, had the sense to address the guy and say that he - as Captain - was sorry to hear of the major delay that he had it would have all ended in smiles.
Instead of which it ended, unnecessarily, in angst and an over the top decision. In other words his ego was offended. NOT enough reason to prevent boarding.
As I have said before. I suspect VS are not best pleased about the events and if he is honest I hoped he is not best pleased about his actions.
The crew are the most important part of any flight. The passengers, who can be a severe pain, are nonetheless entitled to consideration. This man got nothing except the wrath of a Captain who over reacted.
Where you trained to demonstrate such breathaking arrogance? Regretably, you sound just like the type of Captain that airlines could well do without.
You should remember one thing. Its not difficult so it will be easy to understand.
You are the driver. That will no doubt scar your ego but that is all you are and all I was. What you also have to be is a PR representative of your company. You abide by the SOP's, you abide by the ANO and you use your capacity as Captain to ensure the welfare of your passengers at all stages of flight from gate to gate.
If you behave in a manner that is detrimental to your company, which can include any number of dillys, you still must try hard to be nice to the passengers. You also have to try to understand that if you upset them you are totally responsible for the end result. Which can, as in this case, CAUSE a sarcastic comment - no doubt of the kind you and I make often during the course of s shopping trip or such. We don't, of course, know for sure that incident took place but we assume so.
That then is the substance. What ACTUALLY happened in my view - IF - the above scenario is correct, is that the Captain has a major trip in his electrical system - his brain. There was absolutely (I won't use your emphasis on the word) no need to react in the way he did. If he had, however, had the sense to address the guy and say that he - as Captain - was sorry to hear of the major delay that he had it would have all ended in smiles.
Instead of which it ended, unnecessarily, in angst and an over the top decision. In other words his ego was offended. NOT enough reason to prevent boarding.
As I have said before. I suspect VS are not best pleased about the events and if he is honest I hoped he is not best pleased about his actions.
The crew are the most important part of any flight. The passengers, who can be a severe pain, are nonetheless entitled to consideration. This man got nothing except the wrath of a Captain who over reacted.
Off topic, but talking of carry-ons and sandwiches:
Two weeks ago I went to Brussels Club class from Heathrow. There were cabin crew, also in Club, positioning.
Most of them were over the published carry on limit.
All the cabin crew were on the RHS with an empty seat between them. The club passengers were on the LHS, seats adjoining (it's 2 x 3).
After take off, they came round with sandwiches. The purser / CSD (call it what you will) went down the RHS of the club class section, and served the cabin crew first. All the cabin crew got their first choice. When he started working back (serving the passengers) there was no choice left. Same sequence with the drinks.
There was turbulence during the flight, and the light came on. One of the positioning cabin crew stayed standing in the galley chatting with a mate. When the light had been on about 15 minutes, one of the positioning stewardesses got up and went to the toilet.
Now, if I say something I'm rude, unreasonable and a troublemaker (however mild my manner). But why should I be expected to put up with it?
Two weeks ago I went to Brussels Club class from Heathrow. There were cabin crew, also in Club, positioning.
Most of them were over the published carry on limit.
All the cabin crew were on the RHS with an empty seat between them. The club passengers were on the LHS, seats adjoining (it's 2 x 3).
After take off, they came round with sandwiches. The purser / CSD (call it what you will) went down the RHS of the club class section, and served the cabin crew first. All the cabin crew got their first choice. When he started working back (serving the passengers) there was no choice left. Same sequence with the drinks.
There was turbulence during the flight, and the light came on. One of the positioning cabin crew stayed standing in the galley chatting with a mate. When the light had been on about 15 minutes, one of the positioning stewardesses got up and went to the toilet.
Now, if I say something I'm rude, unreasonable and a troublemaker (however mild my manner). But why should I be expected to put up with it?
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SLF3
You shouldn't! On my flights, positioning crew are served last, or in normal sequence. Not because I don't love them but because of the perceptions of other pax, precisely as you detail here. Seatbelt regs are enforced equally, although most crew that I know would never dream of treating their fellow pax and the working crew with such arrogance.
This kind of thing
s me off because it brings the rest of us into disrepute. I can't speak for BA (who seem to do their own thing in so many areas, and appear sometimes to have their own problems with their in-house culture) but I can only sing the same old song - the exception does not prove the rule.
I would have thought a letter might be appropriate.
why should I be expected to put up with it?
This kind of thing
s me off because it brings the rest of us into disrepute. I can't speak for BA (who seem to do their own thing in so many areas, and appear sometimes to have their own problems with their in-house culture) but I can only sing the same old song - the exception does not prove the rule.I would have thought a letter might be appropriate.
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The Captain in question is being backed 100% by the flight ops management.
The Passenger in question was off loaded for being involved in a near brawl in the upper class lounge.
He was offensive to the entire Vs staff, ground staff, cabin crew,and lastly the flight crew and other passengers.
He told the captain he had a "friend" in the media and would do the Captain. His companion was found stealing from the upper class Bar.
The pr department are backing the Captain.
enjoy pontificating
The Passenger in question was off loaded for being involved in a near brawl in the upper class lounge.
He was offensive to the entire Vs staff, ground staff, cabin crew,and lastly the flight crew and other passengers.
He told the captain he had a "friend" in the media and would do the Captain. His companion was found stealing from the upper class Bar.
The pr department are backing the Captain.
enjoy pontificating
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Only in extremis is a passenger actually barred from travelling at a later date.
He was given the opportunity to sober up and calm down. The Redress? I doubt it will amount to much and will come with the proviso that the Capt was exercising his duty of care to other pax,crew, and airframe.
He was given the opportunity to sober up and calm down. The Redress? I doubt it will amount to much and will come with the proviso that the Capt was exercising his duty of care to other pax,crew, and airframe.
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Terry Thomas...Hear Hear!
Sounds like Mr.Warshaw was a right prat, and deserved all he got.
CaptainFillosan, in the example I gave of my own experience, why don't you spread some of your self congratulatory expertise around and tell us how you'd have handled Mr.Pin Stripe in Prestwick?
Do you recommend personally interviewing and soothing over every passenger before they board?
Do tell.
Sounds like Mr.Warshaw was a right prat, and deserved all he got.
CaptainFillosan, in the example I gave of my own experience, why don't you spread some of your self congratulatory expertise around and tell us how you'd have handled Mr.Pin Stripe in Prestwick?
Do you recommend personally interviewing and soothing over every passenger before they board?
Do tell.
As someone who has followed this thread hoping to find out what really happened I am very happy to hear that there was no flipper. Congrats to the Captain and Virgin for supporting him.
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I have been reading this thread with some interest.
I have flown with Simon on a couple of trips and bumped into him many times downroute in the 5 years I have worked for Virgin. He is a true gentleman and is well respected by the staff he comes into contact with. He also has a very good sense of humour, so I was almost certain that there was more to this story than meets the eye.
From the posting above, one of my colleagues, Terry Thomas, seems to know a lot more about the incident than anyone else who has posted over the last 8 pages! It's not too difficult to imagine who approached who to get this story into the newspapers (nice photo of the "partners in crime" in The Telegraph, all suited and booted, makes the story sooo much more credible!)
I would imagine Simon and his crew were probably briefed about the trouble this individual had caused when they arrived at the airport.
Mr. Warshaw said "Then he spoke to one of the ground crew, turned round and pointed toward me." Later in the article he is quoted as saying "But I think he singled me out because my suit and white hair made me easily identifiable."
Now I wasn't there either, but I'd imagine the ground staff were confirming with Simon that the "gentleman" that had clapped his hands and said "well done" was indeed the individual that had caused trouble throughout his delay, hence the finger pointing!
If my memory serves me right, about 8-10 years ago a Britannia Captain had a heart attack at the top of descent into their destination airfield. The Telegraph reported: "CoPilot Hero Lands Airplane!" Reading the article made me realise how little a newspaper journalist, despite writing for a broadsheet, understands about the job we do. Since then every other article I have read about industries I have little or no knowledge of, I have had to take with a pinch of salt.
It just goes to show, you shouldn't believe everything you read in the press, or for that matter anything you read in the press!
I have flown with Simon on a couple of trips and bumped into him many times downroute in the 5 years I have worked for Virgin. He is a true gentleman and is well respected by the staff he comes into contact with. He also has a very good sense of humour, so I was almost certain that there was more to this story than meets the eye.
From the posting above, one of my colleagues, Terry Thomas, seems to know a lot more about the incident than anyone else who has posted over the last 8 pages! It's not too difficult to imagine who approached who to get this story into the newspapers (nice photo of the "partners in crime" in The Telegraph, all suited and booted, makes the story sooo much more credible!)
I would imagine Simon and his crew were probably briefed about the trouble this individual had caused when they arrived at the airport.
Mr. Warshaw said "Then he spoke to one of the ground crew, turned round and pointed toward me." Later in the article he is quoted as saying "But I think he singled me out because my suit and white hair made me easily identifiable."
Now I wasn't there either, but I'd imagine the ground staff were confirming with Simon that the "gentleman" that had clapped his hands and said "well done" was indeed the individual that had caused trouble throughout his delay, hence the finger pointing!
If my memory serves me right, about 8-10 years ago a Britannia Captain had a heart attack at the top of descent into their destination airfield. The Telegraph reported: "CoPilot Hero Lands Airplane!" Reading the article made me realise how little a newspaper journalist, despite writing for a broadsheet, understands about the job we do. Since then every other article I have read about industries I have little or no knowledge of, I have had to take with a pinch of salt.
It just goes to show, you shouldn't believe everything you read in the press, or for that matter anything you read in the press!
Last edited by Tags; 13th Nov 2003 at 23:49.
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Tags,
you haven't made many posts, so you obviously don't know the form. Posts such as yours which are dignified, informative and grown-up have no place on this thread.
Childish histronics and aggressive virtual 'pissing contests', that's what we want.
you haven't made many posts, so you obviously don't know the form. Posts such as yours which are dignified, informative and grown-up have no place on this thread.
Childish histronics and aggressive virtual 'pissing contests', that's what we want.
Ohcirrej
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Thank you TT. If this is what truely happened, then hell yeah, he deserved what he got.
Now, I'm going to put the question again. If the only thing this guy did was slow clap and make a smart @ss comment (as was reported at the start of the thread), did he really deserve to be denied travel? If so, there is a LOT of behaviour that is displayed in the departures lounge that could lead to the same thing (Including the guy yelling at Maxalt down the phone!!). There are going to be those of you that can sit there and say "Yeah, the guy caused a ruckus etc.......screw him". Let's not deny that. However, if the decision was solely based on what started the thread, that can quite easily be interpreted as a bruised ego on a power trip.
And Maxalt,
You got any kids? Do you make them call you Captain? Or just Sir?
Now, I'm going to put the question again. If the only thing this guy did was slow clap and make a smart @ss comment (as was reported at the start of the thread), did he really deserve to be denied travel? If so, there is a LOT of behaviour that is displayed in the departures lounge that could lead to the same thing (Including the guy yelling at Maxalt down the phone!!). There are going to be those of you that can sit there and say "Yeah, the guy caused a ruckus etc.......screw him". Let's not deny that. However, if the decision was solely based on what started the thread, that can quite easily be interpreted as a bruised ego on a power trip.
And Maxalt,
You might be lucky and get away with it some of the time, but the chances are equally good you're going to meet me, or someone like me, who will not tolerate any bull**** and will disembark you at the first whiff of trouble.
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Jerricho, I'm reporting the facts from within the company. The newspaper report has almost nothing to do with the truth.
Now this topic really is getting to the stage of just a slanging match between people with nothing to add and persumably nothing better to do.
Its beneath us as a group and time we put our minds to more important discussions.
The simpson proposal?
Cosmic radiation?
Low cost versus safety?
How we should train and retain the pilots of the future?
Airport expansion in the south east?
Terrorist threats?
Locked flight Deck doors?
Now this topic really is getting to the stage of just a slanging match between people with nothing to add and persumably nothing better to do.
Its beneath us as a group and time we put our minds to more important discussions.
The simpson proposal?
Cosmic radiation?
Low cost versus safety?
How we should train and retain the pilots of the future?
Airport expansion in the south east?
Terrorist threats?
Locked flight Deck doors?
Terry, ok I'll bite:
The Simpson proposal? dunno what it was, but it was obviously a bit of a cracker to make him abdicate!
Cosmic Radiation: No ta, got enough already, thanks for the offer though
Low cost vs safety: ok you start, working for Virgin and all that, something like, Virgin Express is a lo-cost airline, it is unsafe because....discuss...
How should we train and retain? using a sharp stick to 'encourage learning and optimise the efficiency of the training', and use a big dog with sharp teeth to bite pilots if they try to leave the cockpit.
Airports in the South East: Its going to be Stansted was decided in the early 90's, get over it, QED.
Terrorist threats: yes we should continue to threaten terrorists at every available opportunity.
Locked Flight deck door: yes we don't want the SLF to see the dog!
And from what I've read I feel the captain was right.
The Simpson proposal? dunno what it was, but it was obviously a bit of a cracker to make him abdicate!
Cosmic Radiation: No ta, got enough already, thanks for the offer though
Low cost vs safety: ok you start, working for Virgin and all that, something like, Virgin Express is a lo-cost airline, it is unsafe because....discuss...
How should we train and retain? using a sharp stick to 'encourage learning and optimise the efficiency of the training', and use a big dog with sharp teeth to bite pilots if they try to leave the cockpit.
Airports in the South East: Its going to be Stansted was decided in the early 90's, get over it, QED.
Terrorist threats: yes we should continue to threaten terrorists at every available opportunity.
Locked Flight deck door: yes we don't want the SLF to see the dog!
And from what I've read I feel the captain was right.
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Scroggs I think that is an incident in IAD, the one here was a storm in a teacup involving a unsociable passenger last autumn in MIA. Terry Thomas basically put the story to bed in November.
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Cabin Crew friend was thumped en route by a passenger who felt he had a grievence. He spent six months in the nick courtesy oF LHR's finest. The Captain had been inclined to offload him prior to the flight because of his attitude which started with "inappropriate comments" but did not due to company's service ethos. His decision meant ABH to a member of his crew.
IMO always better to leave potential trouble behind.
IMO always better to leave potential trouble behind.