Virgin Skipper has a Flipper... NOT
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The message to SLF who feel the need to vent their frustrations on operating crew is this...don't even think about it. Your ticket entitles you to travel and that is all.
Feel free to walk, swim or ride a pushbike. Thats right, go to the opposition if that makes you feel better, work your way thru them all if that's what it takes. Just don't take it out on the individuals who are about to ensure you have a safe journey.
To the Captain concerned...well done!
Feel free to walk, swim or ride a pushbike. Thats right, go to the opposition if that makes you feel better, work your way thru them all if that's what it takes. Just don't take it out on the individuals who are about to ensure you have a safe journey.
To the Captain concerned...well done!
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I have debated with myself as to reply to this topic or not, however as a colleague of mine has been named I feel pressed to.
I have had the privilege to fly with and be a friend of Simon's for some time now. He has been an exemplary Pilot and Captain for many years.
As a Captain he has been supportive to first officers, and the cabin crew have great respect and affection for him.
Now, in the press as we know journalists will often put spin on a story to fit the story they want to tell.
Lets look at this case, I understand the flight was from MIA to LHR, we don't have standby pilots in the US so Simon could have come from anywhere, JFK,EWR? or even min rest?
Crew often turn up to the stand in the US due to security checks, often we are spread out as each is searched. Sometimes no beep sometimes you end up getting stripped off. Heh ho, but there is a natural stagger.
Now the actual incident itself, for the passenger in question to have been barred by Simon, he must have been obviously disruptive. We DON'T offload passengers willy nilly in Vs, there is always a valid reason for doing so, the IFS and Duty Manager are also involved, as is the other pilot.
So there are checks and balances in place.Our concerns are Always the safety of the crew passengers and aircraft.
The class he was travelling? irrelevant. safety first.
Overpaid Captain? Hardly despite the recent Pay deal we are still amongst the lowest paid long haul drivers in the industry.
Virgin backing down? Hardly again, he would have been given the opportunity to calm down and travel later.
I feel extremely lucky to fly with some of the most professional pilots around, which is why Simon is probably at home ignoring the rants of the quite frankly ill informed.
I have had the privilege to fly with and be a friend of Simon's for some time now. He has been an exemplary Pilot and Captain for many years.
As a Captain he has been supportive to first officers, and the cabin crew have great respect and affection for him.
Now, in the press as we know journalists will often put spin on a story to fit the story they want to tell.
Lets look at this case, I understand the flight was from MIA to LHR, we don't have standby pilots in the US so Simon could have come from anywhere, JFK,EWR? or even min rest?
Crew often turn up to the stand in the US due to security checks, often we are spread out as each is searched. Sometimes no beep sometimes you end up getting stripped off. Heh ho, but there is a natural stagger.
Now the actual incident itself, for the passenger in question to have been barred by Simon, he must have been obviously disruptive. We DON'T offload passengers willy nilly in Vs, there is always a valid reason for doing so, the IFS and Duty Manager are also involved, as is the other pilot.
So there are checks and balances in place.Our concerns are Always the safety of the crew passengers and aircraft.
The class he was travelling? irrelevant. safety first.
Overpaid Captain? Hardly despite the recent Pay deal we are still amongst the lowest paid long haul drivers in the industry.
Virgin backing down? Hardly again, he would have been given the opportunity to calm down and travel later.
I feel extremely lucky to fly with some of the most professional pilots around, which is why Simon is probably at home ignoring the rants of the quite frankly ill informed.
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For too long now, some airlines and crew have been treating passengers as if they are a damn nuisance. Crew seem to believe they have the right to "police" the passengers first and provide a service second. I know I'm going to hear all about safety and how our lives will be saved in a crash etc but the reality is that 99.9% of a/c don't crash! They get there safely. Before someone else starts on about how they get there safely, yes, it's the flight crew doing what they chose to do and what they get paid for.
I travel long-haul twice a month normally in business and I try to be unfailingly polite to everyone I meet at the airport and on the a/c. But, I am getting fed-up with being treated like some moron who can't think straight and needs to be firmly kept in place. We all understand that the flying environment in the USA and Europe is difficult but that is no excuse to treat normal, well adjusted people as if they are idiots. This latest example appears to be another crew member using their undoubted power to "pay-back" an irritated customer. It is not just the crew who have problems, so do passengers who are travelling for all sorts of reasons and pay well for the privelege. I have flown BA for 8 years and have all the miles and cards to show for it. After my last trip with them to the USA I decided enough was enough. My next trip to Tokyo was going to be Virgin.......!! Out of the frying pan into the fire?
I travel long-haul twice a month normally in business and I try to be unfailingly polite to everyone I meet at the airport and on the a/c. But, I am getting fed-up with being treated like some moron who can't think straight and needs to be firmly kept in place. We all understand that the flying environment in the USA and Europe is difficult but that is no excuse to treat normal, well adjusted people as if they are idiots. This latest example appears to be another crew member using their undoubted power to "pay-back" an irritated customer. It is not just the crew who have problems, so do passengers who are travelling for all sorts of reasons and pay well for the privelege. I have flown BA for 8 years and have all the miles and cards to show for it. After my last trip with them to the USA I decided enough was enough. My next trip to Tokyo was going to be Virgin.......!! Out of the frying pan into the fire?
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Glad to finally see a few people with a bit of self respect coming to the support of this Captain, well said Flaps, and Thunderbox.
The crawling attitude toward 'highly paying pax' is insidious and has contributed to the lack of respect and discipline on board ALL our aircraft. By their logic we would have to be grateful and respectful to animals like Mohammed Atta and his minions on 9-11...he was after all a fare paying passenger!
And another thing.
Virgin did the right thing in supporting their Captain and I congratulate them tooo (if it is really the case).
Finally...it is said that the pax in question was no 'drunken lout'.
How the hell do you know?
My suspicion is that this lout spent his 15 hour delay sucking up the free champagne in the First Class Lounge, getting more and more abusive, and more and more confident of his right to be abusive. After 15 hours of this...was he drunk? Was he tipsy?
Did his breath smell of alcohol? Yer damn right it did!
Now maybe I'm mistaken, but I seem to remember from my Air Law days that the commander of an aircraft is bound by the ANO to refuse carriage to anyone under the influence of alcohol.
If the skipper had carried this guy he'd have been breaking the law...and if there was an incident on board it would have been on the skippers neck.
He did absolutely the right thing, and in truth there isn't a thing Virgin or anyone else could say against him. He had THE LAW on his side.
The crawling attitude toward 'highly paying pax' is insidious and has contributed to the lack of respect and discipline on board ALL our aircraft. By their logic we would have to be grateful and respectful to animals like Mohammed Atta and his minions on 9-11...he was after all a fare paying passenger!
And another thing.
Virgin did the right thing in supporting their Captain and I congratulate them tooo (if it is really the case).
Finally...it is said that the pax in question was no 'drunken lout'.
How the hell do you know?
My suspicion is that this lout spent his 15 hour delay sucking up the free champagne in the First Class Lounge, getting more and more abusive, and more and more confident of his right to be abusive. After 15 hours of this...was he drunk? Was he tipsy?
Did his breath smell of alcohol? Yer damn right it did!
Now maybe I'm mistaken, but I seem to remember from my Air Law days that the commander of an aircraft is bound by the ANO to refuse carriage to anyone under the influence of alcohol.
If the skipper had carried this guy he'd have been breaking the law...and if there was an incident on board it would have been on the skippers neck.
He did absolutely the right thing, and in truth there isn't a thing Virgin or anyone else could say against him. He had THE LAW on his side.
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Strake as a business Man do you believe everything you read in the papers? Fly Virgin to Tokyo, try it for yourself. Unfortunately we don't have the opportunity to entertain you in the flight deck anymore, maybe if we could we could remove some of the pre concieved ideas that exist on either side of this debate.
Also food for thought, the reason Aviation is still a safe way to travel may just have something to do with those people who's wages you pay. engineers, cabin crew, ground staff, flight crew, air traffic controllers, all of whom work excemptionally hard to ensure you get home safely.
Also food for thought, the reason Aviation is still a safe way to travel may just have something to do with those people who's wages you pay. engineers, cabin crew, ground staff, flight crew, air traffic controllers, all of whom work excemptionally hard to ensure you get home safely.
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My suspicion is that this lout spent his 15 hour delay sucking up the free champagne in the First Class Lounge, getting more and more abusive, and more and more confident of his right to be abusive. After 15 hours of this...was he drunk? Was he tipsy?
Did his breath smell of alcohol? Yer damn right it did!
Did his breath smell of alcohol? Yer damn right it did!
What is wrong with trying to take the middle course - why didn't the captain take the man aside, tell him the course of action he was considering and try to ascertain if the guy was pissed or just pissed off? By taking such arbitrary action the captain has brought a lot of bad press (deserved or not) onto his airline and started a 'them and us' slanging match between the pilot and SLF PPRuNe community.
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Finally...it is said that the pax in question was no 'drunken lout'.
How the hell do you know?
My suspicion is that this lout spent his 15 hour delay sucking up the free champagne in the First Class Lounge, getting more and more abusive, and more and more confident of his right to be abusive. After 15 hours of this...was he drunk? Was he tipsy?
Did his breath smell of alcohol? Yer damn right it did!
Maxalt - are you making this up or were you there? If the former, that's a pretty strong accusation that no-one else on this thread has so far come up with. If the latter, perhaps you could enlighten us as to exactly what happened in that lounge?
I'd really like to know why this passenger was dumped. If the newspaper report is accurate (unlikely, given the track record of the press) then this captain comes across as petulent and immature and that is no way to treat a paying customer. If the passenger really was a threat to the safety of the flight , the captain's action would have been amply justified.
It seems to me to be significant that three other passengers were so sure the captain was having a hissy fit rather than acting sensibly, that they wrote to complain to Virgin. And Virgin are preparing some form of redress for the passenger - which would indicate he was not a threat and perhaps the captain was being a bit of a premadonna?
Any one know what actually happened here?
SSD
How the hell do you know?
My suspicion is that this lout spent his 15 hour delay sucking up the free champagne in the First Class Lounge, getting more and more abusive, and more and more confident of his right to be abusive. After 15 hours of this...was he drunk? Was he tipsy?
Did his breath smell of alcohol? Yer damn right it did!
Maxalt - are you making this up or were you there? If the former, that's a pretty strong accusation that no-one else on this thread has so far come up with. If the latter, perhaps you could enlighten us as to exactly what happened in that lounge?
I'd really like to know why this passenger was dumped. If the newspaper report is accurate (unlikely, given the track record of the press) then this captain comes across as petulent and immature and that is no way to treat a paying customer. If the passenger really was a threat to the safety of the flight , the captain's action would have been amply justified.
It seems to me to be significant that three other passengers were so sure the captain was having a hissy fit rather than acting sensibly, that they wrote to complain to Virgin. And Virgin are preparing some form of redress for the passenger - which would indicate he was not a threat and perhaps the captain was being a bit of a premadonna?
Any one know what actually happened here?
SSD
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Thunderbox;
Which airline do you work for, just so that I know to avoid them like the plague. 
For reference, I occasionally travel by air, business class. I expect a level of service from that, however:
I consider cabin crew for what they are, i.e. there for my safety. The bringing drinks and food bit is a bonus.
I am polite and always smile and say please and thank you.
I am now in a situation, however, where I'd never ever complain on an aircraft for fear of ending up in irons and shopped to the police at the other end. So, I'd happily put up with the worst service possible (which will put smiles of glee on many cabin crew's faces) and say nothing.
sad but true.
The message to SLF who feel the need to vent their frustrations on operating crew is this...don't even think about it. Your ticket entitles you to travel and that is all.
For reference, I occasionally travel by air, business class. I expect a level of service from that, however:
I consider cabin crew for what they are, i.e. there for my safety. The bringing drinks and food bit is a bonus.
I am polite and always smile and say please and thank you.
I am now in a situation, however, where I'd never ever complain on an aircraft for fear of ending up in irons and shopped to the police at the other end. So, I'd happily put up with the worst service possible (which will put smiles of glee on many cabin crew's faces) and say nothing.
sad but true.
eal401 said
"I am now in a situation, however, where I'd never ever complain on an aircraft for fear of ending up in irons and shopped to the police at the other end. "
But won't you write a stinking letter after you got back, with a demand for compensation, copies to the newspapers and if there was any chance, suing the airline? And name each one of the crew who had upset you? And if there was anything to complain to the CAA about (such as letting passengers in exit rows have bags behind their legs on take off - seen on both American and BMI by me some years ago) which would cause problems, won't you do it? The probable cost to the airline of handling complaints and bad publicity (and the aggravation for crew of a number of 'please explains') suggest to my mind that trying hard to keep the SLF happy might actually be worthwhile. Why, they might even pay to fly with that airline again!
The problem is that at the end of the day, any delay problem of any sort leads to the crew being regarded as responsible, whether they are or not. This is because they are perceived as being the airline's representatives: anything they do wrong is something the airline has done wrong.
Maybe the ticket doesn't guarantee when travel will take place, but there will come a stage where the test of reasonableness comes in. Doubtless Flying Lawyer can tell us how long one could be b******d about for before some sort of legal redress for breach of contract applies. Poor timekeeping doesn't help keep customers, either.
Think I'll stick to BA, even though I can't help laughing every time the Captain really is called Nigel - and there do seem to be a lot of them!
"I am now in a situation, however, where I'd never ever complain on an aircraft for fear of ending up in irons and shopped to the police at the other end. "
But won't you write a stinking letter after you got back, with a demand for compensation, copies to the newspapers and if there was any chance, suing the airline? And name each one of the crew who had upset you? And if there was anything to complain to the CAA about (such as letting passengers in exit rows have bags behind their legs on take off - seen on both American and BMI by me some years ago) which would cause problems, won't you do it? The probable cost to the airline of handling complaints and bad publicity (and the aggravation for crew of a number of 'please explains') suggest to my mind that trying hard to keep the SLF happy might actually be worthwhile. Why, they might even pay to fly with that airline again!
The problem is that at the end of the day, any delay problem of any sort leads to the crew being regarded as responsible, whether they are or not. This is because they are perceived as being the airline's representatives: anything they do wrong is something the airline has done wrong.
Maybe the ticket doesn't guarantee when travel will take place, but there will come a stage where the test of reasonableness comes in. Doubtless Flying Lawyer can tell us how long one could be b******d about for before some sort of legal redress for breach of contract applies. Poor timekeeping doesn't help keep customers, either.
Think I'll stick to BA, even though I can't help laughing every time the Captain really is called Nigel - and there do seem to be a lot of them!
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I also have flown with the Capt on a few occasions and have found him not only an excellent pilot, but also calm, reasonable, considerate and he buys the beers. That's my view on him.
I also behave at airports when I'm a passenger and wouldn't dream of slow hand clapping or berating an airline crew, no matter how ironically as I would consider it to be an insult and add nothing to a situation that I know partially or nothing about.
Believe me the MIA layover isn't the most stunning on the Virgin network and you can bet that the crew wanted home as soon as the passenger did, the allowances, hotel and weather are hardly an incentive to stay there.
Flying the world as a crew or passenger will mean you have delays, for various reasons, sadly it goes with territory. I'd rather my crew doesn't operate until they are fit, the aircraft serviceable and the weather healthily. Moaning is natural; we are all frustrated, I guess we just have to button our lip at times, even if it does feel you are being kept in the dark and being fed manure.
I've also been on flights where a few ringleaders have ensured that the cabin crew have had an utterly miserable time when things have been blown out of proportion.
I suspect that if you'd tried that before you'd got on a US based carrier's flight you'd still be in a cell at MIA without your shoes.
I think things have got a little blown up out of proportion and we should not read too much into what was quite a minor incident and possibly learn from it when the truth comes out.
I'll shut up now
I also behave at airports when I'm a passenger and wouldn't dream of slow hand clapping or berating an airline crew, no matter how ironically as I would consider it to be an insult and add nothing to a situation that I know partially or nothing about.
Believe me the MIA layover isn't the most stunning on the Virgin network and you can bet that the crew wanted home as soon as the passenger did, the allowances, hotel and weather are hardly an incentive to stay there.
Flying the world as a crew or passenger will mean you have delays, for various reasons, sadly it goes with territory. I'd rather my crew doesn't operate until they are fit, the aircraft serviceable and the weather healthily. Moaning is natural; we are all frustrated, I guess we just have to button our lip at times, even if it does feel you are being kept in the dark and being fed manure.
I've also been on flights where a few ringleaders have ensured that the cabin crew have had an utterly miserable time when things have been blown out of proportion.
I suspect that if you'd tried that before you'd got on a US based carrier's flight you'd still be in a cell at MIA without your shoes.
I think things have got a little blown up out of proportion and we should not read too much into what was quite a minor incident and possibly learn from it when the truth comes out.
I'll shut up now
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Terry
I certainly don't believe everything I read in the papers having been the subject of one or two "accurate" (not) stories.
My points really come from personal experience. In my original note, I respected the fact that everyone works hard to ensure my safety but Terry, that's their job and what they are paid for. In my business, we have to treat our customers with respect and deal with problems as well. We do that because it is our job and it is why customers come to us. If we are rude or abrupt with them they will go away.
I accept the current emergencies are not a nice work environment but neither are they a nice travelling one either. Like (I guess) you, I have to fly to do my job. The problems at the moment seem to stem more from low morale through to outright boredom on the part of some staff. Again, from experience it seems to be senior cabin crew more than junior....maybe everyone's just flat-out fed-up
Anyway, I may well try Virgin to see if there's a difference.....
I certainly don't believe everything I read in the papers having been the subject of one or two "accurate" (not) stories.
My points really come from personal experience. In my original note, I respected the fact that everyone works hard to ensure my safety but Terry, that's their job and what they are paid for. In my business, we have to treat our customers with respect and deal with problems as well. We do that because it is our job and it is why customers come to us. If we are rude or abrupt with them they will go away.
I accept the current emergencies are not a nice work environment but neither are they a nice travelling one either. Like (I guess) you, I have to fly to do my job. The problems at the moment seem to stem more from low morale through to outright boredom on the part of some staff. Again, from experience it seems to be senior cabin crew more than junior....maybe everyone's just flat-out fed-up
Anyway, I may well try Virgin to see if there's a difference.....
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Maxalt, it was my understanding that pilots should NEVER make assumptions. However, following your line of thinking here, you should become a Tabloid Journo.
Perhaps things need to be made a little clearer to you. The has to be more to this than has been revealed in this report (you sure you didn't write it?). There are 2 sides to everything, and I'm guessing the Captain hasn't been allowed to provide the media with his side of the story by VS.
It's good to see you're prepared to enter into intelligent discussion in you last post about Air Law, pitty your previous tyrade of abusing people (picking on usernames is always a great way to back your point!). Infact, if I didn't know better, you're only here to wind people up. Just a pitty sometimes the captain can't leave you behind.
Perhaps things need to be made a little clearer to you. The has to be more to this than has been revealed in this report (you sure you didn't write it?). There are 2 sides to everything, and I'm guessing the Captain hasn't been allowed to provide the media with his side of the story by VS.
It's good to see you're prepared to enter into intelligent discussion in you last post about Air Law, pitty your previous tyrade of abusing people (picking on usernames is always a great way to back your point!). Infact, if I didn't know better, you're only here to wind people up. Just a pitty sometimes the captain can't leave you behind.
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Thanks Crewrest for letting us know that this Captain is indeed just a normal well adjusted guy who gets on with most people. Rather than a power crazed machine built to p*ss off passengers.
Sometimes crew and other staff have errors of judgement (though I'm not sure in this case). The ground staff and flight crews of airlines would appear to have to be councellors, psychiatrists, mediators, military strategists, surrogate mothers (wives or husbands), saints who should sit there and take all quantities of s**t which are thrown at them and still keep smiling. Plus we're not allowed to behave or be treated as human beings.
I treat all the passengers as fellow humans and as equals, but if they prove me wrong then they also get treated accordingly.
Do unto others...
Sometimes crew and other staff have errors of judgement (though I'm not sure in this case). The ground staff and flight crews of airlines would appear to have to be councellors, psychiatrists, mediators, military strategists, surrogate mothers (wives or husbands), saints who should sit there and take all quantities of s**t which are thrown at them and still keep smiling. Plus we're not allowed to behave or be treated as human beings.
I treat all the passengers as fellow humans and as equals, but if they prove me wrong then they also get treated accordingly.
Do unto others...
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I was initially going to give this thread a big swerve until the Capt"s identity was revealed. Like several other people on this thread i too have flown as Capt Crook"s F/O on many occasions, and he is without doubt an excellent operator, gentleman, raconteur, and all round respected pilot, with flt deck, cabin crew and ground staff.
I am not aware of the actual situation that he found himself in, but i am sure he had a bloody good reason for acting as he did.
I am not aware of the actual situation that he found himself in, but i am sure he had a bloody good reason for acting as he did.
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And you'll be made to feel very welcome Strake. I suppose the difference in our opinions is that you see it all as a service. To be honest the vast majority of Pilots see service as an aside.
Important but not our priority, I am reminded of a time when an Upper Class passenger demanded we switched the seat belt sign off, made me grin as we were about to negotiate a huge band of cbs.
We try our very best, but sometimes that isn't going to please everyone ie the above case.
Important but not our priority, I am reminded of a time when an Upper Class passenger demanded we switched the seat belt sign off, made me grin as we were about to negotiate a huge band of cbs.
We try our very best, but sometimes that isn't going to please everyone ie the above case.
Paxing All Over The World
With the advent of widebody a/c, airlines have enabled people to fly to places that their parents could only see on the movie screen.
To fill those seats, the airlines have made people think that it is no more difficult than stepping on a bus. They have advertised hard to remove any fears and doubts and concerns about travelling by air.
They have ensured that folks understand nothing about command and control. Nothing about mid-air risks other than 'terrorism' and 'smoking'. The 'air-rage' issue has got 1,001 excuses and apologists. BUT that is because no one has seen it for real. Once they have - they never forget it.
Simple example: People think that their home will never catch fire. They have no idea how rapidly it will spread and destroy their house. Once it has happened - for the rest of their lives, they will respect fire.
In the air, we are all fortunate that we have people working hard to get us to our destination. The person who has paid for 'Y' or 'F' often has zero idea of what is involved.
I look forward to hearing the detail of what the pax said to provoke this strong reaction, before venturing to comment on the case. My support for VS is undimmed.
To fill those seats, the airlines have made people think that it is no more difficult than stepping on a bus. They have advertised hard to remove any fears and doubts and concerns about travelling by air.
They have ensured that folks understand nothing about command and control. Nothing about mid-air risks other than 'terrorism' and 'smoking'. The 'air-rage' issue has got 1,001 excuses and apologists. BUT that is because no one has seen it for real. Once they have - they never forget it.
Simple example: People think that their home will never catch fire. They have no idea how rapidly it will spread and destroy their house. Once it has happened - for the rest of their lives, they will respect fire.
In the air, we are all fortunate that we have people working hard to get us to our destination. The person who has paid for 'Y' or 'F' often has zero idea of what is involved.
I look forward to hearing the detail of what the pax said to provoke this strong reaction, before venturing to comment on the case. My support for VS is undimmed.
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radeng, if I had suffered poor service, then yes I would write a letter of complaint. I am more than entitled to do so, having paid for a service. Of course there are limits, for example I couldn't write after every KLMuk flight to complain about the rude, abrupt and cold service, I can only hope that it is better next time. (And that the change to KLM/KLMCityhopper means Dutch crews.)
The point is that if I encounter poor service in a restaurant, shop, pub, etc. I'd attempt to tackle it with due politeness there and then. On board aircraft, we are more and more pushed into the belief that any complaint pitched at any level will land us in trouble. There is no industry on the planet where the workers have to be treated with such kid gloves to avoid any upset.
Remember, no SLF, no job, no wages. If you don't like that go and work in another industry, it's a simple solution.
For what it's worth, I would say that to anyone in any job, not just aviation related ones.
The point is that if I encounter poor service in a restaurant, shop, pub, etc. I'd attempt to tackle it with due politeness there and then. On board aircraft, we are more and more pushed into the belief that any complaint pitched at any level will land us in trouble. There is no industry on the planet where the workers have to be treated with such kid gloves to avoid any upset.
Remember, no SLF, no job, no wages. If you don't like that go and work in another industry, it's a simple solution.
For what it's worth, I would say that to anyone in any job, not just aviation related ones.