Virgin Skipper has a Flipper... NOT
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Under a date palm.
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well done Simon!
If all the charter operators did the same thing I'd give them some of my hard earned readies by using them.
Life is too short and holidays too precious to have to listen to some whinging alcohol fuelled ar$e
(not necessarily this case!) moaning and impossing his views on the cabin for XX hours.
It's not the cabin crews fault, but they will have to endure the abuse from some. Removing this person set the scene for any potential rabble rousers that they will not be tolerated, something I think the CC would appreciate. (Viewed in hindsight, I'm not advocating this as pre-boarding ritual
).
At last someone thinking of all the other passengers, not just the verbal minority!
If all the charter operators did the same thing I'd give them some of my hard earned readies by using them.
Life is too short and holidays too precious to have to listen to some whinging alcohol fuelled ar$e
(not necessarily this case!) moaning and impossing his views on the cabin for XX hours.It's not the cabin crews fault, but they will have to endure the abuse from some. Removing this person set the scene for any potential rabble rousers that they will not be tolerated, something I think the CC would appreciate. (Viewed in hindsight, I'm not advocating this as pre-boarding ritual
).At last someone thinking of all the other passengers, not just the verbal minority!
Moderator
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have you guys ever shared a 747 with about 350 pax who are spitting mad at having been delayed for 24 hours?
350 pax who feel justified in jeering at the replacement crew when they arrive at the gate? Who think that they have been grievously wronged by the airline and as such are entitled to behave like pigs the entire trip across the atlantic? Experienced the aggressive crowd metailty that develops from their righteous anger being stirred up by a few ringleaders?
I have, and it was a true nightmare. Not only for the cabin crew but for the pax themselves.
By removing one passenger, this captain assured a safe and peaceful flight for all by letting the rest of the pax know that he would not tolerate abuse of his crew in any shape or form.
Nobody likes taking unpopular decisions, and nobody lightly decides to off-load a passenger.
Getting into the cockpit, locking the door and letting the CC deal with a near riot for the next 10 hours would have been the easier option for Captain Crook.
The fact that he chose to take decisive action instead, speaks volumes for his sense of responsibility and his understanding of cabin dynamics.
Gutsy move captain, I'd be happy to fly with you any day Sir!
350 pax who feel justified in jeering at the replacement crew when they arrive at the gate? Who think that they have been grievously wronged by the airline and as such are entitled to behave like pigs the entire trip across the atlantic? Experienced the aggressive crowd metailty that develops from their righteous anger being stirred up by a few ringleaders?
I have, and it was a true nightmare. Not only for the cabin crew but for the pax themselves.
By removing one passenger, this captain assured a safe and peaceful flight for all by letting the rest of the pax know that he would not tolerate abuse of his crew in any shape or form.
Nobody likes taking unpopular decisions, and nobody lightly decides to off-load a passenger.
Getting into the cockpit, locking the door and letting the CC deal with a near riot for the next 10 hours would have been the easier option for Captain Crook.
The fact that he chose to take decisive action instead, speaks volumes for his sense of responsibility and his understanding of cabin dynamics.
Gutsy move captain, I'd be happy to fly with you any day Sir!
As a mere SLF (which group actually do the PAYING!), I 'd make damn sure that I never used that airline again - and would advise everyone I knew to avoid them like the plague. At the end of the day, delays like this are costly to the SLF - charge their time at £50 per hour, and the airline owes them! No matter what the delay is caused by.
Think of it this way. You need your car to get to work. The garage doesn't fix it by the time they say they will, don't provide a replacement, and it's too late for you to do anything about it. Wouldn't you be p****d off with them? No matter which innocent got in the way.
There's a fine line between acceptable and unacceptable behaviour at times, and as a very frequent flyer, I find that the airline industry has more than an occasional tendency to get very arrogant with the people who pay. No SLF = no jobs (except for the freight dogs)
Think of it this way. You need your car to get to work. The garage doesn't fix it by the time they say they will, don't provide a replacement, and it's too late for you to do anything about it. Wouldn't you be p****d off with them? No matter which innocent got in the way.
There's a fine line between acceptable and unacceptable behaviour at times, and as a very frequent flyer, I find that the airline industry has more than an occasional tendency to get very arrogant with the people who pay. No SLF = no jobs (except for the freight dogs)
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Age: 48
Posts: 590
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
By removing one passenger, this captain assured a safe and peaceful flight for all by letting the rest of the pax know that he would not tolerate abuse of his crew in any shape or form.
Such a display would put me quite off VS. Might even consider voluntarily flying BA, as extreme as that seems!
Now if said passenger has said "About f
ing time, you f ing thick c t" I'd be more sympathetic. But it would appear he didn't.
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: The World
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Captain has the responsibility to ensure the safety of the flight. If an individual undermines that authority by publicly mocking that authority the Captain is fully justified in going to the next step of “what if” an in-flight emergency develops. Is this individual going to obey the crew commands in an emergency? Or, as this individual has already demonstrated, flout authority?
It appears to me that this individual showed an amazing lack of good manners and judgment with zero accountability. Hmm it’s almost akin to the behavior of a child yelling for his “Mommy” because someone has shown him that this type of behavior is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.
This incident is all about safety and if the Captain had not removed the offending party he would have been remiss in his duties
It appears to me that this individual showed an amazing lack of good manners and judgment with zero accountability. Hmm it’s almost akin to the behavior of a child yelling for his “Mommy” because someone has shown him that this type of behavior is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.
This incident is all about safety and if the Captain had not removed the offending party he would have been remiss in his duties
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: here
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Would the utterly newted football team follow instructions? Some bloke who says "Well done" even totally sarcastically is hardly guilty of "flouting authority". Jeez you must come from a pretty strict home!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I cannot believe for one minute that "Well Done" was the only comment made.
This is surely the pax version - I suspect the Captain has a different story to tell.......one which we have not heard on this forum.
This is surely the pax version - I suspect the Captain has a different story to tell.......one which we have not heard on this forum.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Europe/US
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dogma.....You might have the Flight Surgeon check your ears for wax...................sounds like you have the same attitude as the arrogant, pompous **** who is a sorry excuse for an otherwise great bunch of people!
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The frequency jungle
Posts: 975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I cannot believe for one minute that "Well Done" was the only comment made.
This is surely the pax version - I suspect the Captain has a different story to tell.......one which we have not heard on this forum.
This is surely the pax version - I suspect the Captain has a different story to tell.......one which we have not heard on this forum.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Age: 64
Posts: 3,586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For me, flapsforty has it pretty much right. I have never understood the logic that allows people to feel it is acceptable to behave discourteously to crew for events and circumstances that are completely beyond their control - the equivalent of being rude to a waiter about the shortcomings of the chef.
The original Captain was unavailable for medical reasons (according to the press report shown). This kind of unforseeable event cost VS many hundreds of thousands of pounds and a certain loss of good will. At the same time, these things happen, and a certain degree of forbearance amongst the passengers would be appropriate. The Captain involved in this appears to have been a "substitute": Neither he, nor his crew, would have done anything "bad" to these passengers, and may not even have been present during the original delay. I find myself wondering what Mr Warshaw felt he was achieving with his ironic clapping and jeering. Neither action would get them airborne any more quickly, nor would it enhace the travel experience for fellow passengers or crew: In fact, quite the opposite. In short it would achieve little except to feed Mr Warshaw's dubious sense of his own self worth.
In a serious delay, the majority of customers will accept their bad luck with equanimity and reasonable humour, and reserve their complaint for the airline customer relations department, if there is genuine fault. There are always a very small minority who choose to speak, and behave, appallingly, often under the impression that they speak for the majority. If not handled correctly, they can make a bad situation much worse. As cabin crew, I'll do everything I can to help the majority, who deserve my time and attention, and I welcome any action by the Captain, or indeed any authority, that silences the troublemakers.
The original Captain was unavailable for medical reasons (according to the press report shown). This kind of unforseeable event cost VS many hundreds of thousands of pounds and a certain loss of good will. At the same time, these things happen, and a certain degree of forbearance amongst the passengers would be appropriate. The Captain involved in this appears to have been a "substitute": Neither he, nor his crew, would have done anything "bad" to these passengers, and may not even have been present during the original delay. I find myself wondering what Mr Warshaw felt he was achieving with his ironic clapping and jeering. Neither action would get them airborne any more quickly, nor would it enhace the travel experience for fellow passengers or crew: In fact, quite the opposite. In short it would achieve little except to feed Mr Warshaw's dubious sense of his own self worth.
In a serious delay, the majority of customers will accept their bad luck with equanimity and reasonable humour, and reserve their complaint for the airline customer relations department, if there is genuine fault. There are always a very small minority who choose to speak, and behave, appallingly, often under the impression that they speak for the majority. If not handled correctly, they can make a bad situation much worse. As cabin crew, I'll do everything I can to help the majority, who deserve my time and attention, and I welcome any action by the Captain, or indeed any authority, that silences the troublemakers.
"After his airline treated paying customers like scum of earth already... "
eal401, what on earth are you on about! The original Captain had an eye infection and was unable to operate the flight. Virgin accommodated all 300 plus passengers overnight in hotels. The passengers were told to check-in for a new departre time of 08.00. The replacement Captain arrived at his aircraft at 07.45. Where is this treating passengers like scum of the earth. Would you expect to have been flown accross the Atlantic by a Captain who could not see properly??!!!
Also you finish - "Now if said passenger has said "About f*ing time, you f*ing thick c*t" I'd be more sympathetic. But it would appear he didn't." This may be nearer the truth than we know. We have only heard one side of the story. Mr Warshaw is hardly likely to go to the press and say that he swore at the crew, is he? He may not have been abusive, but we only have HIS word on that.
eal401, what on earth are you on about! The original Captain had an eye infection and was unable to operate the flight. Virgin accommodated all 300 plus passengers overnight in hotels. The passengers were told to check-in for a new departre time of 08.00. The replacement Captain arrived at his aircraft at 07.45. Where is this treating passengers like scum of the earth. Would you expect to have been flown accross the Atlantic by a Captain who could not see properly??!!!
Also you finish - "Now if said passenger has said "About f*ing time, you f*ing thick c*t" I'd be more sympathetic. But it would appear he didn't." This may be nearer the truth than we know. We have only heard one side of the story. Mr Warshaw is hardly likely to go to the press and say that he swore at the crew, is he? He may not have been abusive, but we only have HIS word on that.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: min rest
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was told by my airline...... Not having a standby Captain at LHR is a commercial risk and the company is aware of this.
In this VS case this risk failed and cost big money.
In such cases my airline sort to grab any rated Captain travelling as passenger to operate and failing that any suitable inbound Captain, gave him 9 hours minimum rest at the hotel rather than his more normal layover time and required him to operate the delayed flight SAP.
When min rest was the case you were often legally rested but often were very tired and stressed and certainly in no mood to handle any extra extreame crap such as declaring yourselve unfit to fly and not having your contract renewed.
When a pilot has been jerked around for several years by cost effective rostering and has had his life and any attempted social and holiday arrangements blow to hell on many an occasion he generally becomes all the things he disliked in his senior Captains when he was a Fo.
I do not know the facts in Captain Cooks case but if they were approaching the above circumstances I have been there and have a certain understanding for the backround build up.
All covered as a "Communications problem by our Captain who has been spoken to by our management."
A management that knowingly engineered the no standby Captain risk situation.
In this VS case this risk failed and cost big money.
In such cases my airline sort to grab any rated Captain travelling as passenger to operate and failing that any suitable inbound Captain, gave him 9 hours minimum rest at the hotel rather than his more normal layover time and required him to operate the delayed flight SAP.
When min rest was the case you were often legally rested but often were very tired and stressed and certainly in no mood to handle any extra extreame crap such as declaring yourselve unfit to fly and not having your contract renewed.
When a pilot has been jerked around for several years by cost effective rostering and has had his life and any attempted social and holiday arrangements blow to hell on many an occasion he generally becomes all the things he disliked in his senior Captains when he was a Fo.
I do not know the facts in Captain Cooks case but if they were approaching the above circumstances I have been there and have a certain understanding for the backround build up.
All covered as a "Communications problem by our Captain who has been spoken to by our management."
A management that knowingly engineered the no standby Captain risk situation.
If I had paid a whopping £3500 for an airline ticket - I would expect to be treated like a prince by the overpaid VS captain whose salary I was paying for the week.
If all I had said was "well done" in a sarcastic manner - I would not expect to be subjected to a 15 hour delay.
I may not be an airline captain myself, but I exercise captaincy as a military helicopter pilot. True, the pax I carry are not under the slightest influence of booze or holiday nerves - they have other matters to think about. Consequently I have never thrown anyone off one of my 'flights' - its a different ball game that I speak of.
But what Capt Crooked did was unacceptable! He ruined the day of a highly paying pax who was just a little irked with the company. The pax was not a booze fuelled skinhead - he was a middle aged man with his wife, and I would wager did not pose any threat to the safe conduct of the flight.
This case has parallels with the american pax who was thrown off a BA flight in San Francisco - because he was wearing a tiny badge that said - potential terrorist.
Overreaction in both cases I think.
If I was Branson, I'd sack Mr Crooked.
If all I had said was "well done" in a sarcastic manner - I would not expect to be subjected to a 15 hour delay.
I may not be an airline captain myself, but I exercise captaincy as a military helicopter pilot. True, the pax I carry are not under the slightest influence of booze or holiday nerves - they have other matters to think about. Consequently I have never thrown anyone off one of my 'flights' - its a different ball game that I speak of.
But what Capt Crooked did was unacceptable! He ruined the day of a highly paying pax who was just a little irked with the company. The pax was not a booze fuelled skinhead - he was a middle aged man with his wife, and I would wager did not pose any threat to the safe conduct of the flight.
This case has parallels with the american pax who was thrown off a BA flight in San Francisco - because he was wearing a tiny badge that said - potential terrorist.
Overreaction in both cases I think.
If I was Branson, I'd sack Mr Crooked.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good job you are not Mr Branson then, isn't it Training Risky? Like everyone else on this thread you haven't a clue what actually went on, only what has been reported in some newspapers.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Age: 64
Posts: 3,586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Training Risky you say
The delay was not caused by the comment. The comment was caused by the delay i.e. the delay came first. Sorry to be pedantic, but this is surely an important distinction?
If all I had said was "well done" in a sarcastic manner - I would not expect to be subjected to a 15 hour delay
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Under a date palm.
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Training risky,
If you paid any money you have expectations, but ....
So do the crew
and
so do your fellow passengers.
Just because you have paid doesn't entitle you to abuse or act like a child.
This chap may well have cause to be angry, but so did 299 other passengers and probably 16 delayed crew as well!
''Manners maketh the man''.
If you paid any money you have expectations, but ....
So do the crew
and
so do your fellow passengers.
Just because you have paid doesn't entitle you to abuse or act like a child.
This chap may well have cause to be angry, but so did 299 other passengers and probably 16 delayed crew as well!
''Manners maketh the man''.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: South of the Watford Gap, East of Portland
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TightSlot
Very well put and I agree with you 100%. There is a difference between a group of lads in high spirits on the 2 hr flight home from the Med compared to a plane full of mainly angry and aggressive pax on an 8hr tranatlantic flight. It would be the cabin crew who would have taken all the flak and I'm sure, in this situation, the captain's action made it quite clear that he was not going to accept flak for him or any of his crew. That is called leadership and taking command responsiblity which, unfortunately, is all too lacking in our so-called 'modern' society.
Training Risky
To set a military scenario, if a 'grunt' who had just spent the last 15hrs in a slit trench because you were late at an RV came up to you and said 'about f....g time, mate', you'd probably have the guy charged - and if you didn't you would be shirking your command responsiblity, too.
For reasons best known to themselves, air passengers (a minority) demonstrate rudeness to ground and flight crew which I'm sure (or hope) they never display in other aspects of their lives.
Pour example les autres - often works a treat!
Very well put and I agree with you 100%. There is a difference between a group of lads in high spirits on the 2 hr flight home from the Med compared to a plane full of mainly angry and aggressive pax on an 8hr tranatlantic flight. It would be the cabin crew who would have taken all the flak and I'm sure, in this situation, the captain's action made it quite clear that he was not going to accept flak for him or any of his crew. That is called leadership and taking command responsiblity which, unfortunately, is all too lacking in our so-called 'modern' society.
Training Risky
To set a military scenario, if a 'grunt' who had just spent the last 15hrs in a slit trench because you were late at an RV came up to you and said 'about f....g time, mate', you'd probably have the guy charged - and if you didn't you would be shirking your command responsiblity, too.
For reasons best known to themselves, air passengers (a minority) demonstrate rudeness to ground and flight crew which I'm sure (or hope) they never display in other aspects of their lives.
Pour example les autres - often works a treat!