Virgin Skipper has a Flipper... NOT
Bringer of Wx
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Wouldn't a simple, inscrutable smile (even if through gritted teeth whilst silently mouthing the word 'to$$er') have disarmed the situation?
Given that we have only the available facts as reported on this thread to be able to comment (I'm sure there are two full sides to the story), this still sounds very much like the captain was over-reacting to being embarrassed. A more light-hearted approach would have almost certainly resulted in a better outcome, IMO.
I'm sure lots of skippers would have chosen to handle this better, and, without wishing to denigrate the pilot in this instance, I know which personality type I'd prefer to be flown by.
Given that we have only the available facts as reported on this thread to be able to comment (I'm sure there are two full sides to the story), this still sounds very much like the captain was over-reacting to being embarrassed. A more light-hearted approach would have almost certainly resulted in a better outcome, IMO.
I'm sure lots of skippers would have chosen to handle this better, and, without wishing to denigrate the pilot in this instance, I know which personality type I'd prefer to be flown by.
Last edited by WeatherJinx; 12th Nov 2003 at 04:01.
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Flying as a passenger is not a pleasant experience these days and also very stressful for many...empathy with passengers concerns such as in this case for example how angry many of those passengers must have been being delayed, many missing work, business appointments etc. should be taken into account and the situation dealt with accordingly...
Doesn't excuse it but there was an appropriate way to handle this situation (as it has been described in the press) and I dont think what actually happened was the best or most diplomatic way...
Those passengers will remember VS for all the wrong reasons...and how many of the 300 will choose to fly again with them...
I think we lose/have lost touch with the passengers needs and problems...a few more flights as pax. really opens your eyes
Doesn't excuse it but there was an appropriate way to handle this situation (as it has been described in the press) and I dont think what actually happened was the best or most diplomatic way...
Those passengers will remember VS for all the wrong reasons...and how many of the 300 will choose to fly again with them...
I think we lose/have lost touch with the passengers needs and problems...a few more flights as pax. really opens your eyes
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Many years ago......oh hum
I was "departing" a certain Island [to the South of Sicily]. We had one "customs/checkout" agent for 130+ pax. Queues, horrendous
. New guy arrives...self says "About time too!" [Honest] Que [very] dirty look and [also very] intimate frisk.
No sarcasm etc. just a comment
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
I was "departing" a certain Island [to the South of Sicily]. We had one "customs/checkout" agent for 130+ pax. Queues, horrendous
. New guy arrives...self says "About time too!" [Honest] Que [very] dirty look and [also very] intimate frisk.No sarcasm etc. just a comment
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
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Surely there must be more to this story?
A bloke who is employed to transport his company's customers refused to allow a customer to travel because of a slow hand clap.
Brilliant, the next time a snotty nosed kid throws the contents of his lunch box at me, I can have him barred! (Not that I would, I love sarnies!)
A bloke who is employed to transport his company's customers refused to allow a customer to travel because of a slow hand clap.
Brilliant, the next time a snotty nosed kid throws the contents of his lunch box at me, I can have him barred! (Not that I would, I love sarnies!)
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Jerricho,
Who is making assumptions if not you? You are assuming this Captain was wrong when you don't know the facts yourself. I made a counter proposition. The difference between you and me is that I'm disposed to give this Professional Pilot the benefit of the doubt. He exercised his judgement and made a call based on the circumstances which only HE was equipped or entitled to make. This whole discussion is therefore redundant and everyone who is condemning him is just blowing hot air.
Not when faced with disruptive behaviour on an aircraft.
There is only ONE way.
My way...or the highway.
Maxalt, it was my understanding that pilots should NEVER make assumptions. However, following your line of thinking here, you should become a Tabloid Journo.
There are 2 sides to everything...
There is only ONE way.
My way...or the highway.
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I had a similar problem in Miami a few months ago.
We the crew had been delayed 1 hour at a time for 3 hours for a trip from Miami to Buenos Aires.
We arrived at the gate to the same response from the passengers, The gate was locked so we had to wait awhile with this going on, After the agent arrived at the gate I took him unto the leader and told him, At this moment he was not going with us to Buenos Aires, I told him to go into the corner and sit down and not make any further nuisance of himself and that may make me change my mind.
He went into the corner and did not make a sound.
He boarded the flight with no further problem.
I was on a line check at the time; the checker said that this was very interesting to watch.
My point to the passenger was that the crew had already be up for 5 hours by the time they arrived at the airport and they could do without any additional stress from frustrated passengers, after all we could have decided not to go into discretion they would have had another 12 hours delay.
We the crew had been delayed 1 hour at a time for 3 hours for a trip from Miami to Buenos Aires.
We arrived at the gate to the same response from the passengers, The gate was locked so we had to wait awhile with this going on, After the agent arrived at the gate I took him unto the leader and told him, At this moment he was not going with us to Buenos Aires, I told him to go into the corner and sit down and not make any further nuisance of himself and that may make me change my mind.
He went into the corner and did not make a sound.
He boarded the flight with no further problem.
I was on a line check at the time; the checker said that this was very interesting to watch.
My point to the passenger was that the crew had already be up for 5 hours by the time they arrived at the airport and they could do without any additional stress from frustrated passengers, after all we could have decided not to go into discretion they would have had another 12 hours delay.
Things begin to fall into place, don't they. Flaps40, you hit it on the nose, with backup from TerryThomas and Crewrest. It sounds more and more as if the captain sussed out the entire situation en route to the gate, identified the (or one of) ringleaders and whacked him pronto, thus ensuring a peaceful or at least thoughful flight.
There's still time for witnesses to come on to defend the bizclass pax's composure etc but the fact that none so far have done so would indicate the snap decision to leave him behind was right.
No, I'm not agreeing with Maxalt.
There's still time for witnesses to come on to defend the bizclass pax's composure etc but the fact that none so far have done so would indicate the snap decision to leave him behind was right.
No, I'm not agreeing with Maxalt.
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What is wrong with all you people ?
It is obvious that this overbearing and power mad captain (Captain Hook) took advantage of his position by throwing off this fine upstanding BUSINESS class traveller.
I know all the facts ! Because I read the excerpt from that fine publication The Daily Telegraph.
This Captain should learn that he is there for the people and if they wish to let out their emotions on him he should grin and bear it.
I think he should have his livelihood taken away from him.
Send him to the poor house !
No , Hang him !
The Beast
It is obvious that this overbearing and power mad captain (Captain Hook) took advantage of his position by throwing off this fine upstanding BUSINESS class traveller.
I know all the facts ! Because I read the excerpt from that fine publication The Daily Telegraph.
This Captain should learn that he is there for the people and if they wish to let out their emotions on him he should grin and bear it.
I think he should have his livelihood taken away from him.
Send him to the poor house !
No , Hang him !
The Beast
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Clearly from the accounts published here (how could they be other than positively correct...
)...then the concerned Commander needes to be called on the carpet, and told off by the marketing manager...!
)...then the concerned Commander needes to be called on the carpet, and told off by the marketing manager...!
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Difficult without all/any of the facts, but at the end of the day he exercised his right to refuse carriage. Given the dramas this usually causes oneself, there must have been good reason.
Personally I support his actions.
Personally I support his actions.
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This really is dead simple.
If you were'nt there, you don't know exactly what the particular passengers attitude was. None of you can comment. None of you can state that the decision was incorrect. Unruly passengers are a menace. They can be a risk to flight safety. They can certainly cause stress amongst crew and passengers. They must be seen to be treated with zero tolerance. The message may then get across......behave properly !
The Captain was in charge, he made a judgement, we should support that decision 100%, end of story.
If you were'nt there, you don't know exactly what the particular passengers attitude was. None of you can comment. None of you can state that the decision was incorrect. Unruly passengers are a menace. They can be a risk to flight safety. They can certainly cause stress amongst crew and passengers. They must be seen to be treated with zero tolerance. The message may then get across......behave properly !
The Captain was in charge, he made a judgement, we should support that decision 100%, end of story.
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I do not wish to comment directly about this incident as I know nothing about it, I wasn't there and I have no experience of VS.
But, There just may be a wider issue here. In my airline, crews are getting worked so hard (legal but unsympathetic rostering with most crews disgruntled and borderline fatigue) that there have been a couple of minor instances of crew members spitting the dummy when ordinarily they would not have done.
I am not suggesting that this may have been the case here but I would be interested to hear the views of any within VS and other airlines.
Possibly another case of airlines being "run" by accountants ("We can save the cost of a standby crew and we will just put the inbound crew on min rest if anything goes wrong, and anyway the cost of hotac for a 747 full of pax will be more than saved by not having a standby crew in MIA. To hell with pax loyalty and crew morale and health because its an employers job market") and then blaming the professional operators when the wheels come off.
Comments?
But, There just may be a wider issue here. In my airline, crews are getting worked so hard (legal but unsympathetic rostering with most crews disgruntled and borderline fatigue) that there have been a couple of minor instances of crew members spitting the dummy when ordinarily they would not have done.
I am not suggesting that this may have been the case here but I would be interested to hear the views of any within VS and other airlines.
Possibly another case of airlines being "run" by accountants ("We can save the cost of a standby crew and we will just put the inbound crew on min rest if anything goes wrong, and anyway the cost of hotac for a 747 full of pax will be more than saved by not having a standby crew in MIA. To hell with pax loyalty and crew morale and health because its an employers job market") and then blaming the professional operators when the wheels come off.
Comments?
Bringer of Wx
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Not when faced with disruptive behaviour on an aircraft. There is only ONE way.
My way...or the highway.
My way...or the highway.
From the available evidence, it appears that his episode has everything to do with people skills and nothing whatever to do with air safety, which is being used by some posters (disingenuously) as an excuse for arbitrary punishment on the basis of, 'just because I can'.
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I take your point dsr10 but there comes a point where the hassles aren't offset by the rewards and I know of captains and FOs who are thinking seriously of resigning with no other (aviation) job to go to. Makes you think doesn't it?
It seems that there are a lot of people annoyed with Virgin's attitude towards their customers:
http://www.virginaircrewlies.com/original/florida5.htm
http://www.virginaircrewlies.com/original/florida5.htm