Which is the best helicopter for training?
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Check out this video of an auto in a 47 (plus a few others):
http://www.chinookhelicopters.com/video_clips.htm#
http://www.chinookhelicopters.com/video_clips.htm#
I did my ag training in Pennsylvania at Agrotors using Bell 47 and Hiller, i also owned a G3B1 for a few years. They are great machines but have no place in the modern world of aviation ! When you have finished your training the chances of you flying a machine with twist throttle with no correlation will be zero.....and the chances of you flying a machine which gives you time to read the flight manual before dropping collective when the donkey stops is definitely zero! In my book a very poor trainer as it is too forgiving and now very expensive to run. Why look any further than the Schweizer or Hughes 300c definitely the best in every category. ps and it can carry fat F******s too.
Just looked at video of auto...not very impressed! You can do zero airspeed landing and then take off again , do a 360 turn and then land ! My old mate Dick Meston used to do it regularly. Also you HAVE to be joking about the Hiller as a trainer !!!
Just looked at video of auto...not very impressed! You can do zero airspeed landing and then take off again , do a 360 turn and then land ! My old mate Dick Meston used to do it regularly. Also you HAVE to be joking about the Hiller as a trainer !!!
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This guy was comparing the Bell-47 and the Robinson. That's no comparison at all.
I do fully agree on the Schweizer being the best trainer. Because I also think the Bell-47 and the Hiller are to forgiving and the transition back to modern machines is very difficult (law of primacy)
That's why I use the Schweizer for basic training and after the PPL the student can transition to the Hiller.
But you also have to remember there are still people buying Bell-47 and Hillers just to fly them privately and they would like to learn on their own machines.
I do fully agree on the Schweizer being the best trainer. Because I also think the Bell-47 and the Hiller are to forgiving and the transition back to modern machines is very difficult (law of primacy)
That's why I use the Schweizer for basic training and after the PPL the student can transition to the Hiller.
But you also have to remember there are still people buying Bell-47 and Hillers just to fly them privately and they would like to learn on their own machines.
Best summed up with the following
R22 designed as a 1+1 personal heli
S300 desighned to teach people to fly ( the military )
One of the schools where I worked the average 1st solo on R22 was about 20 hours on a 300 about 15 which just about sums it up.
As an instructor the 300 is much more forgiving and much easier to fly.
R22 designed as a 1+1 personal heli
S300 desighned to teach people to fly ( the military )
One of the schools where I worked the average 1st solo on R22 was about 20 hours on a 300 about 15 which just about sums it up.
As an instructor the 300 is much more forgiving and much easier to fly.
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Radom observations from the bar......
Man this thread is never going to die......
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Cran WTH are you on about? Last post I saw from you was in Oct last year and your comment was " not much longer now " waiting on a new trainer ......well its almost a year , i'd say that is much longer..where is it /when is it/what is it?...do tell I am anxious ... not bagging honest.
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hmm the R22 if you can fly this you can fly anything ....blah blah blah Oh cmon, I dont think any one really believes that , a type rating is a type rating is a type rating.
Everyones skill level is different ... lets see documented cases of students times and where they are now comparing R22 to Schweizer to 47's and see.............. also lets see the costs to date including transition times & types... that ought to be a good read I think
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if the R22 was not intended for a trainer then why is it so?
Just happened to be? Nah .. coincedence is for suckers me thinks.
Good planning by Frank Robinson & best of luck to him.
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If its a cost thing then thats not a good way to balance your life really......" I learned to fly the R22 when I had the option to learn to fly on something a little more safer cause I wanted to save money" ... yeah good one.
I would rather learn to fly something that is more forgiving and safer & slower and less fatal and may even take me longer to transition into other helo types ( cough bull sh!7 !! ) than go in something that may become a stream lined anvil cause I screwed up learning to fly and or my instructor wasnt as fast fixing my screw up... and on and on it goes.
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I think you are going to love what you learn to fly in cause thats what you learned to fly in... thats why folks are biased.
Its not a bad thing , if you learned in a 22 then good fo ryou or a 47 or what ever.
I dont see too many R22 init pilots saying ...man i wished I never learned to fly in that one..I hate it , what a POS !!!....show me the thread & I appologise profusly.
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Dear Frank Robinson, please design a trainer helicopter. Period.
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If Robinson did come out with a trainer, Iwonder what it would ... (A) look like.....(B) Perform like (C) be safe like ......and (D) cost like ... init and long term.
____________________________________________________________ _____
Grinning running & ducking.let the games begin.
HF
____________________________________________________________ ____
Cran WTH are you on about? Last post I saw from you was in Oct last year and your comment was " not much longer now " waiting on a new trainer ......well its almost a year , i'd say that is much longer..where is it /when is it/what is it?...do tell I am anxious ... not bagging honest.
____________________________________________________________ _____
hmm the R22 if you can fly this you can fly anything ....blah blah blah Oh cmon, I dont think any one really believes that , a type rating is a type rating is a type rating.
Everyones skill level is different ... lets see documented cases of students times and where they are now comparing R22 to Schweizer to 47's and see.............. also lets see the costs to date including transition times & types... that ought to be a good read I think
____________________________________________________________ _____
if the R22 was not intended for a trainer then why is it so?
Just happened to be? Nah .. coincedence is for suckers me thinks.
Good planning by Frank Robinson & best of luck to him.
____________________________________________________________ _____
If its a cost thing then thats not a good way to balance your life really......" I learned to fly the R22 when I had the option to learn to fly on something a little more safer cause I wanted to save money" ... yeah good one.
I would rather learn to fly something that is more forgiving and safer & slower and less fatal and may even take me longer to transition into other helo types ( cough bull sh!7 !! ) than go in something that may become a stream lined anvil cause I screwed up learning to fly and or my instructor wasnt as fast fixing my screw up... and on and on it goes.
____________________________________________________________ _____
I think you are going to love what you learn to fly in cause thats what you learned to fly in... thats why folks are biased.
Its not a bad thing , if you learned in a 22 then good fo ryou or a 47 or what ever.
I dont see too many R22 init pilots saying ...man i wished I never learned to fly in that one..I hate it , what a POS !!!....show me the thread & I appologise profusly.
____________________________________________________________ _____
Dear Frank Robinson, please design a trainer helicopter. Period.
____________________________________________________________ _____
If Robinson did come out with a trainer, Iwonder what it would ... (A) look like.....(B) Perform like (C) be safe like ......and (D) cost like ... init and long term.
____________________________________________________________ _____
Grinning running & ducking.let the games begin.
HF
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My advice, having been there!!!!
10 things to consider, based on my own experience;
1. Decide if you are going to fly helicopters for a career and if not it doesn't really matter where you go, as long as you are comfortable with the school and can afford it. There is no guarantee that there will be a job after you recieve your qualification with any company, but I would strongly suggest that if you are looking at flying helicopters as a career, you investigate those companies that can get you that first start. Ask them if they have contacts or assured routes to employment opportunities.
2. Look to your home country to train in first, regardless of cost. It's becoming much harder to enter countries like the United States due to immigration and language barriers. Additionally, some places may appear to be cheaper on the surface but to give you an example, going to Panama, central America, to gain a license could take you as long as a year due to bureaucracy and lack of available aircraft. Also costs for travel, accomodation and food will eventually equal that of just plain staying where you are. Additionally, you stand a better chance in Europe, North America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand of flying a machine that meets true ICAO airworthiness standards. Better to be safe and work on your flying than worrying about all the other things that could affect your ability to succeed/fail.
3. Don't make the hourly cost or the type of aircraft available an issue. Getting a license is only a license to learn more and most companies will train you thier own procedures. I've flown the R22 and Huges 300 and they will both challenge you. If you can afford to do all your flying on "Turbine" so much the better, but this will still not guarantee you a future job.
4. Get a "medical" before you even start flying, especially if you will need a class 1 certification. You don't want bad news at the end of your training.
5. Be aware that no school will spoon feed you everything you will need to know or study. Some are better than others but you will need to read the books and study. That should be part of your commitment to yourself.
6. Once you have an ICAO license it is easier to get another and it is often a good idea to hold the 3 major ones; JAR, FAA and Transport Canada, Australia or New Zealand.
7. Hour building can be done in many ways. Many people who can afford it try to get to 500 hours as this is perceived as a magic number for operators. However, this is not necessarily true and certainly hasn't been the case for me. Again look for the company that will give you the best opportunity to work, even if it's on the ground initially.
8. There is the option of joining the military if you want do it at the taxpayers costs, but it's not all that easy to get a job with some compaines after being trained the military way. Even if the cost of converting to a civilian license is covered on exit from the service, you will have to learn new tricks in the more commericial civilian world unless you are looking at flying for Law Enforcement or another more similar acitivity.
9. Last peice of advice. Never pay everything upfront no matter what your told. You are customer of the school and they are after your money because that's how they survive. If your not sure about spending more money on a suggested skills session, first consider it's real benefit until you actually have your license in your hands. Your instructor is not always your best freind even if you belive him to be a god in the air.
10. Almost anyone can obtain a helicopter license, but that does not give you the right to a job after and if you or your school have any doubts about your ability to complete the course, think seriously about whether you want to continue. The helicopter world is competitive and its not a good place for those who are uncertain about their commitment to it.
Hope this will help some folks, as no one told me any of this when I started out!
1. Decide if you are going to fly helicopters for a career and if not it doesn't really matter where you go, as long as you are comfortable with the school and can afford it. There is no guarantee that there will be a job after you recieve your qualification with any company, but I would strongly suggest that if you are looking at flying helicopters as a career, you investigate those companies that can get you that first start. Ask them if they have contacts or assured routes to employment opportunities.
2. Look to your home country to train in first, regardless of cost. It's becoming much harder to enter countries like the United States due to immigration and language barriers. Additionally, some places may appear to be cheaper on the surface but to give you an example, going to Panama, central America, to gain a license could take you as long as a year due to bureaucracy and lack of available aircraft. Also costs for travel, accomodation and food will eventually equal that of just plain staying where you are. Additionally, you stand a better chance in Europe, North America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand of flying a machine that meets true ICAO airworthiness standards. Better to be safe and work on your flying than worrying about all the other things that could affect your ability to succeed/fail.
3. Don't make the hourly cost or the type of aircraft available an issue. Getting a license is only a license to learn more and most companies will train you thier own procedures. I've flown the R22 and Huges 300 and they will both challenge you. If you can afford to do all your flying on "Turbine" so much the better, but this will still not guarantee you a future job.
4. Get a "medical" before you even start flying, especially if you will need a class 1 certification. You don't want bad news at the end of your training.
5. Be aware that no school will spoon feed you everything you will need to know or study. Some are better than others but you will need to read the books and study. That should be part of your commitment to yourself.
6. Once you have an ICAO license it is easier to get another and it is often a good idea to hold the 3 major ones; JAR, FAA and Transport Canada, Australia or New Zealand.
7. Hour building can be done in many ways. Many people who can afford it try to get to 500 hours as this is perceived as a magic number for operators. However, this is not necessarily true and certainly hasn't been the case for me. Again look for the company that will give you the best opportunity to work, even if it's on the ground initially.
8. There is the option of joining the military if you want do it at the taxpayers costs, but it's not all that easy to get a job with some compaines after being trained the military way. Even if the cost of converting to a civilian license is covered on exit from the service, you will have to learn new tricks in the more commericial civilian world unless you are looking at flying for Law Enforcement or another more similar acitivity.
9. Last peice of advice. Never pay everything upfront no matter what your told. You are customer of the school and they are after your money because that's how they survive. If your not sure about spending more money on a suggested skills session, first consider it's real benefit until you actually have your license in your hands. Your instructor is not always your best freind even if you belive him to be a god in the air.
10. Almost anyone can obtain a helicopter license, but that does not give you the right to a job after and if you or your school have any doubts about your ability to complete the course, think seriously about whether you want to continue. The helicopter world is competitive and its not a good place for those who are uncertain about their commitment to it.
Hope this will help some folks, as no one told me any of this when I started out!
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My two cents
Did my first 16 hrs in the R22 loved it but with being a rugby player and a fearly big cfi on bored things got a little cramped.Moved on to the 300cbi,great machine to fly.(although a little slower)love evey minute,Now if taking the girlfriend up for a spin i know when she sees the R22 she's not going near it.Sorry guys the 300 looks and feels more like a helicopter,thats not to say i wouldn't go for a spin in a R22.Just my two cents both great machines.
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Another $5 dollars a minute ....
Its the 300cbi .. Only way to go, cheap is not always the best way. Q; How many 300cbi's/cb's do you see lying parked on there side 
But i have to also say, enjoy your early flying, dont rush into the CPL as
most do, relax and learn from others, just because you get your CPL in
the minimum hours required by the man does not make you a good pilot .. time does, just like a fine wine .. smooth and mellow !
Thats what i reckon ...
But i have to also say, enjoy your early flying, dont rush into the CPL as
most do, relax and learn from others, just because you get your CPL in
the minimum hours required by the man does not make you a good pilot .. time does, just like a fine wine .. smooth and mellow !
Thats what i reckon ...
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schweizer 300 or robinson r-22
guys im thinking of starting a ppl(H) once my ppl(a) is complete which is the beter helicopter to train in, the schweizer 300 or the robo r-22 many thanks whitus
Your best bet is too take a triall flight in both aircraft to see what one you feel comfortable with, they are both excellent training helicopters!
Last edited by 206Fan; 27th Apr 2008 at 20:12.
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Whitus
Many folk here favour the 300 however I trained on the 22 as that was the only type available in my area.
If you wish to travel with 3 Pax the transtition to the 44 is probably easier if trained on the 22.
Best of luck
Many folk here favour the 300 however I trained on the 22 as that was the only type available in my area.
If you wish to travel with 3 Pax the transtition to the 44 is probably easier if trained on the 22.
Best of luck
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Dear All,
I am just starting out on the long road....
I have been working hard in the Sandpit, saved up all my dosh and want to start PPL(H). I have a long distant ambition to do the CPL(H), but PPL(H) & hour building will do me in the meantime. Not sure what I want to fly after qual, but I do favour the 206 or EC120...
Too many pies have been consumed for me to train on the R22, so have been offered the R44 for around £400ph dual.
What I'd like to know is..... If I can get a 206 or EC120 for only a little bit more and more importantly... I can afford it.... Should I save my cash for post qual flying in the turbine... or go for turbine straight from the off?
I know what my AVTUR fuelled heart is telling me, but what do you guys advise?
I am just starting out on the long road....
I have been working hard in the Sandpit, saved up all my dosh and want to start PPL(H). I have a long distant ambition to do the CPL(H), but PPL(H) & hour building will do me in the meantime. Not sure what I want to fly after qual, but I do favour the 206 or EC120...
Too many pies have been consumed for me to train on the R22, so have been offered the R44 for around £400ph dual.
What I'd like to know is..... If I can get a 206 or EC120 for only a little bit more and more importantly... I can afford it.... Should I save my cash for post qual flying in the turbine... or go for turbine straight from the off?
I know what my AVTUR fuelled heart is telling me, but what do you guys advise?
Last edited by Bomb Doctor; 2nd Nov 2008 at 12:49.
Hovering AND talking
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I would think a Jet Ranger or EC120 will be around £600 an hour. With the number of hours to get a PPL(H) averaging 60-70 hours (very few people do it in the minimum of 45), this would cost you around £40k. Then there's hour building up to a total time of 155 hours before you can start a commercial flying course which is a minimum of 30 hours.
Have you considered a Schweizer? One can still indulge in ones passion for pies and fly! This would be around £300 an hour.
If you want go commercial, you need to think what you want to do with your licence. With instrument rating costing around £40-45k, you might want to save your cash. If you want to become an instructor, you will need to have an SE piston rating.
However, if you can afford to do all your training on a turbine, then why not - they're cracking machines to fly!
Cheers
Whirls
Have you considered a Schweizer? One can still indulge in ones passion for pies and fly! This would be around £300 an hour.
If you want go commercial, you need to think what you want to do with your licence. With instrument rating costing around £40-45k, you might want to save your cash. If you want to become an instructor, you will need to have an SE piston rating.
However, if you can afford to do all your training on a turbine, then why not - they're cracking machines to fly!
Cheers
Whirls
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I investigated this in some depth.
Obviously Robinson have dominated this market, primarily due to costs. But the Schweizer seems to be very highly regarded for its safety, predictable handling, engineering quality and conventional controls. If you like the pies it also has good power reserves (esp the 300C) and a surprisingly spacious cabin (wider than a 206).
The other option, if you want a turbine, is the Enstrom 480. Apparently easier and cheaper to learn on than a 206.
In either instance you would need to find an operator or owner in your locality with a suitable aircraft and instructor.
Obviously Robinson have dominated this market, primarily due to costs. But the Schweizer seems to be very highly regarded for its safety, predictable handling, engineering quality and conventional controls. If you like the pies
it also has good power reserves (esp the 300C) and a surprisingly spacious cabin (wider than a 206). The other option, if you want a turbine, is the Enstrom 480. Apparently easier and cheaper to learn on than a 206.
In either instance you would need to find an operator or owner in your locality with a suitable aircraft and instructor.
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Thanks for the responses.
£600 is pretty steep Whirlygig - I have been quoted £400 for the R44, £490 for the 206 and only £460 for the EC120 (excl VAT).
So, for an extra £60ph, I can learn on a modern turbine.... I've already made the decision to spend £20k odd...I'm sure I can find another £2700 for the EC120.... In for a penny in for a pound?
The saving I would make going with the R44 would only pay for 5hrs in a 206 after gaining the qual...
Decisions decisions...
£600 is pretty steep Whirlygig - I have been quoted £400 for the R44, £490 for the 206 and only £460 for the EC120 (excl VAT).
So, for an extra £60ph, I can learn on a modern turbine.... I've already made the decision to spend £20k odd...I'm sure I can find another £2700 for the EC120.... In for a penny in for a pound?
The saving I would make going with the R44 would only pay for 5hrs in a 206 after gaining the qual...
Decisions decisions...
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VAT on £490 is £575.75 and there is usually a landing fee on top that. You'd be struggling to reclaim the VAT for a PPL (pretty much nigh on impossible although I have heard of one case where someone managed to albeit a long time ago) so you need to include the VAT in your costings.
If you've only £20k for a PPL, and an R22 is out, then it's the Schweizer, Bell 47 or Enstrom 280 for you.
Cheers
Whirls
If you've only £20k for a PPL, and an R22 is out, then it's the Schweizer, Bell 47 or Enstrom 280 for you.
Cheers
Whirls
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Bomb Doctor
Whirlygig is giving some good advices here and I think you will be better of doing training in an piston machine then a turbine. Power management is something I think you will learn better in a piston machine.
I have been reading this thread with interest since I am writing a article for an magazine which is the best training helicopter so keep it coming. :-)
By the way, I have done training in R22, R44, 300CB and C and flown Hiller12C, 206 and MD500.
Whirlygig is giving some good advices here and I think you will be better of doing training in an piston machine then a turbine. Power management is something I think you will learn better in a piston machine.
I have been reading this thread with interest since I am writing a article for an magazine which is the best training helicopter so keep it coming. :-)
By the way, I have done training in R22, R44, 300CB and C and flown Hiller12C, 206 and MD500.