Which is the best helicopter for training?
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In the main (with very few exceptions) helicopters don't just fall out of the sky. Pilots make them do that - usually not intending to achieve that end, but nonetheless they do. And a pilot can make any of them fall out of the sky so the most dangerous thing in any aircraft that you fly is most likely (statistically speaking) to be you.
Read through the AAIB reports and you will see that there are only a few crashes where mechanical failure of some kind or other is to blame. There are many where the pilot did not handle a situation well enough to stay in the air, or have the sense to get out of the air and onto the ground before things got too bad, or the sense not to go into the air in the first place.
All helicopters (and other aircraft) have their limits. Learn them, and stay within them.
Read through the AAIB reports and you will see that there are only a few crashes where mechanical failure of some kind or other is to blame. There are many where the pilot did not handle a situation well enough to stay in the air, or have the sense to get out of the air and onto the ground before things got too bad, or the sense not to go into the air in the first place.
All helicopters (and other aircraft) have their limits. Learn them, and stay within them.
Yes I agree but then thats exactly the point I'm making with this type (and I guess the US SFAR73?) as it seems to me a great deal of examples where there is no explanation why the thing ended in the ground. Actually where there seems to have been acceptance of a design/technical failure you easily loose track of if or when there was any follow up work, and the audit trail of data / information seems lacking. Such as here:-
http://http://www.flightglobal.com/n...-crash-346036/ a crash in 2009.
which is interesting when you can find data like this in Austraila on an R22 (but mentions R44's having same issues) from 2007...
www.atsb.gov.au/media/24398/aair200701625_001.pdf
If you want to look at reports then look at the shunt involving G-PUDD. I don't read anything that suggests the pilot did something that was so stupid that merited him and his passenger paying a very high price.
(Sorry edited to correct some terrible grammar!)
http://http://www.flightglobal.com/n...-crash-346036/ a crash in 2009.
which is interesting when you can find data like this in Austraila on an R22 (but mentions R44's having same issues) from 2007...
www.atsb.gov.au/media/24398/aair200701625_001.pdf
If you want to look at reports then look at the shunt involving G-PUDD. I don't read anything that suggests the pilot did something that was so stupid that merited him and his passenger paying a very high price.
(Sorry edited to correct some terrible grammar!)
Last edited by Pittsextra; 17th Jul 2012 at 20:29.
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So, don't fly in it. Move on.
Some people don't fly on Friday 13th. You won't get me in one of those GA microkite machines as I don't think they are safe. Others use them daily. I ride a motorcycle in London, but would never ride a cycle there as i think it's too dangerous.
It takes all sorts, and everyone should do what is right for them. I can see that you have made your choice. You are in a minority, though, if they are one of the most common helicopters in the world today. Lots of students (who might not know better, you might argue) and lots of instructors (difficult to argue that for them) use them every day.
Oh, and I am letting my daughter learn in a Robinson R44 Clipper II.
Some people don't fly on Friday 13th. You won't get me in one of those GA microkite machines as I don't think they are safe. Others use them daily. I ride a motorcycle in London, but would never ride a cycle there as i think it's too dangerous.
It takes all sorts, and everyone should do what is right for them. I can see that you have made your choice. You are in a minority, though, if they are one of the most common helicopters in the world today. Lots of students (who might not know better, you might argue) and lots of instructors (difficult to argue that for them) use them every day.
Oh, and I am letting my daughter learn in a Robinson R44 Clipper II.
In the main (with very few exceptions) helicopters don't just fall out of the sky.
Read through the AAIB reports and you will see that there are only a few crashes where mechanical failure of some kind or other is to blame. There are many where the pilot did not handle a situation well enough to stay in the air, or have the sense to get out of the air and onto the ground before things got too bad, or the sense not to go into the air in the first place.
So, don't fly in it. Move on.
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I'm not sure that really answers the points that are being raised.
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I am not sure but I do think that the blade design is now different. Someone will correct this if that is not so.
If you learn on an R22 or R44 you will be taught to check the machine before flight. That includes checking the blade skins both visually and by tapping them at points where you need to check that the bonding is sound.
Today - at clearly great risk - I made 3 flights in an R44, each with passenger. In addition to me I had either a CPL(H) or a PPL(A). You might have gathered from my posting this that I am still alive.
The accident report that you cite is "bad". However, I bet I can find something for just about any machine you can name. EC120 had a crack-fault in the head. A-Stars had a head problem. The brand-new Gumbia... (I can't spell that one) appears to be lacking baffles in the fuel tank.
And if you realy want something to complain about - my vote goes to anything with a carb! So many people have died due to carb icing, it must have killed more than any other single fault yet fixed- and rotor-wings still get designed with them (take a look at the Guimba... (no, still can't spell that one)
If you learn on an R22 or R44 you will be taught to check the machine before flight. That includes checking the blade skins both visually and by tapping them at points where you need to check that the bonding is sound.
Today - at clearly great risk - I made 3 flights in an R44, each with passenger. In addition to me I had either a CPL(H) or a PPL(A). You might have gathered from my posting this that I am still alive.
The accident report that you cite is "bad". However, I bet I can find something for just about any machine you can name. EC120 had a crack-fault in the head. A-Stars had a head problem. The brand-new Gumbia... (I can't spell that one) appears to be lacking baffles in the fuel tank.
And if you realy want something to complain about - my vote goes to anything with a carb! So many people have died due to carb icing, it must have killed more than any other single fault yet fixed- and rotor-wings still get designed with them (take a look at the Guimba... (no, still can't spell that one)
John R81 : "The accident report that you cite is "bad". However, I bet I can find something for just about any machine you can name. EC120 had a crack-fault in the head. A-Stars had a head problem. The brand-new Gumbia... (I can't spell that one) appears to be lacking baffles in the fuel tank."
Hello J R81,
Your quite right about the problems of all the helicopters,
but for exemple about the one you can't spell the name (too difficult, just say G2) : people who had troubles with it are still here after the event, trying to spell the bloody name of this helicopter (just say G2) and the aircrafts are flying again (after repair).
Just looking at the safety data of Helihub.com, you find unfortunately 10 Fatalities for the R22 and 12 for the R44 (plus the heavy injuries) since the begeaning of the year (six and a half months) and all the accidents are not reported on these data.Most of these accidents are pilote mistake like for all the helicopters.
ALL the helicopters are difficult to fly and so, go down.
But some are less difficult to fly ( I don't say easy) than others and more protective ( I don't say indestructible) than others when they go down.
Maybe these are the best helicopters for training.
Henri
P.S : sorry about my English, this is not my mother tongue
Hello J R81,
Your quite right about the problems of all the helicopters,
but for exemple about the one you can't spell the name (too difficult, just say G2) : people who had troubles with it are still here after the event, trying to spell the bloody name of this helicopter (just say G2) and the aircrafts are flying again (after repair).
Just looking at the safety data of Helihub.com, you find unfortunately 10 Fatalities for the R22 and 12 for the R44 (plus the heavy injuries) since the begeaning of the year (six and a half months) and all the accidents are not reported on these data.Most of these accidents are pilote mistake like for all the helicopters.
ALL the helicopters are difficult to fly and so, go down.
But some are less difficult to fly ( I don't say easy) than others and more protective ( I don't say indestructible) than others when they go down.
Maybe these are the best helicopters for training.
Henri
P.S : sorry about my English, this is not my mother tongue
Last edited by HeliHenri; 19th Jul 2012 at 07:16.
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P.S : sorry about my English, this is not my mother tongue
I think you have done very well, better than most Australians who tend to massacre the bloody language at times, self included. You've even installed a couple of very neat double entendres.
In fact if I didn't know better I reckon you have neatly 'taken the mickey' of quite some previous posters.
cheers tet
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"The Cabri has fully automatic carb heating"
It still has carb heating
It can still kill you
It should have had, in my humble opinion (if I ever had a "humble" opinion) fuel injection. I am waiting for someone to tell me that carb icing is not one of the most prevelent causes of aviation death / injury / damage in GA machines.
But I think my point is getting missed. My point is:
There is no perfect answer out there. Pick one option and get training. Join the Robbo brigaide. Or join the Robbo hating brigade. But, and I mean this in the most constructive fashion, join!
It still has carb heating
It can still kill you
It should have had, in my humble opinion (if I ever had a "humble" opinion) fuel injection. I am waiting for someone to tell me that carb icing is not one of the most prevelent causes of aviation death / injury / damage in GA machines.
But I think my point is getting missed. My point is:
There is no perfect answer out there. Pick one option and get training. Join the Robbo brigaide. Or join the Robbo hating brigade. But, and I mean this in the most constructive fashion, join!
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Considering PPL(H)
Hi All,
Apologies if this is in the wrong place or discussed before but I have some questions.
I am considering doing a PPL(H), I have NPPL (G). I am interested in the safety of the R22, I have read much and read lots of AAIB reports concerning this aircraft.
Several things struck me!
1: In a number of the accidents people reported the aircraft yawing to the left, is this torque reaction from the rotor? If so, could this be as a result of power drop/ engine failure (amongst others)
2: I have read a number of posts where pilots state they would not fly the R22 and that it is not designed to be a training aircraft.
3: I have taken many risks in paragliding competitions etc, I am more interested in flying a safe as can be helicopter for fun and enjoyment, I can never obtain a CPL (H) as I have Amblyopia and cannot meet the eyesight criteria, I have a Class II medical so going commercial is not an option.
Can people advise on other helicopters that may be available to train on in the UK?
Last Question, R22 v R44, is one considered safer than the other?
I know the biggest factor involved in aircraft safety is pilot action, inaction or decisions. I would appreciate any and all advice.
Many Thanks in advance
Apologies if this is in the wrong place or discussed before but I have some questions.
I am considering doing a PPL(H), I have NPPL (G). I am interested in the safety of the R22, I have read much and read lots of AAIB reports concerning this aircraft.
Several things struck me!
1: In a number of the accidents people reported the aircraft yawing to the left, is this torque reaction from the rotor? If so, could this be as a result of power drop/ engine failure (amongst others)
2: I have read a number of posts where pilots state they would not fly the R22 and that it is not designed to be a training aircraft.
3: I have taken many risks in paragliding competitions etc, I am more interested in flying a safe as can be helicopter for fun and enjoyment, I can never obtain a CPL (H) as I have Amblyopia and cannot meet the eyesight criteria, I have a Class II medical so going commercial is not an option.
Can people advise on other helicopters that may be available to train on in the UK?
Last Question, R22 v R44, is one considered safer than the other?
I know the biggest factor involved in aircraft safety is pilot action, inaction or decisions. I would appreciate any and all advice.
Many Thanks in advance
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PPL(H)
Hi,
I have owned/ operated R44's for 8 years now, having learned on the R22. I have around 900 hrs on type.
I havent flown an R22 since my training, simply because it hasn't been necessary.
In my view there are 2 distinct camps here - the commercial pilots who fly far more exotic machinery and slag the Robinson off at every opportunity, and there are those who actually buy a machine for their private use.
The latter will very likely consider the Robinson. It is a fraction of the cost of 'the next ones up' yet has an excellent performance. It is fast, comfortable and, in relative terms, far less expensive to operate than a turbine with comparable performance.
They are very easy to fly but, as you would expect, less forgiving of mistakes than a fixed wing machine.
Have a go in a Robinson and make your own mind up.
If you are ever in Warwickshire, come and see me and my machine, a 4 year old Raven 2. PM if so.
Hairy
I have owned/ operated R44's for 8 years now, having learned on the R22. I have around 900 hrs on type.
I havent flown an R22 since my training, simply because it hasn't been necessary.
In my view there are 2 distinct camps here - the commercial pilots who fly far more exotic machinery and slag the Robinson off at every opportunity, and there are those who actually buy a machine for their private use.
The latter will very likely consider the Robinson. It is a fraction of the cost of 'the next ones up' yet has an excellent performance. It is fast, comfortable and, in relative terms, far less expensive to operate than a turbine with comparable performance.
They are very easy to fly but, as you would expect, less forgiving of mistakes than a fixed wing machine.
Have a go in a Robinson and make your own mind up.
If you are ever in Warwickshire, come and see me and my machine, a 4 year old Raven 2. PM if so.
Hairy
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Apparently according to CAA accident rate in R22 no higher than Cessna 150.
All I know is no helicopter accident is good for our industry and everyone is trying to make it as safe as possible.
Your best option is try a few machines local to you and if you are contemplating hiring afterwards check if they will hire you a machine once you complete your PPL(H) make sure no min hours before you can carry passengers etc
Good luck
All I know is no helicopter accident is good for our industry and everyone is trying to make it as safe as possible.
Your best option is try a few machines local to you and if you are contemplating hiring afterwards check if they will hire you a machine once you complete your PPL(H) make sure no min hours before you can carry passengers etc
Good luck
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Can people advise on other helicopters that may be available to train on in the UK?
A lot depends on where in the UK you are based - for convenient access.
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PPL and R22
It seems that around London, the flying schools offer training for PPL(H) on R22/R44 only.
The R22 seems to be more difficult to fly than other helicopters.
Are there any school where you can learn on a 3-blade rotor helicopter around London, for a price lower than the R44?
Is it really more difficult to learn on a R22?
The R22 seems to be more difficult to fly than other helicopters.
Are there any school where you can learn on a 3-blade rotor helicopter around London, for a price lower than the R44?
Is it really more difficult to learn on a R22?
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R22/44
I learned on a 22 3 years ago. I have flown 300 hours in one now.(as well as a few hours in 44 .) The 22 is not difficult .
I have also done a few hours in 3 bladed (Enstrom and Sweitzers) and they are slightly less twitchy but really the 22 is as good.
If you learn on a 3 blade then go to a 22 you would maybe think its difficult, but if you learn on a 22 , its not difficult.
There is a Sweitzer at VIRAGE heli school at Beccles in Suffolk (about same price as 22)
good luck
I have also done a few hours in 3 bladed (Enstrom and Sweitzers) and they are slightly less twitchy but really the 22 is as good.
If you learn on a 3 blade then go to a 22 you would maybe think its difficult, but if you learn on a 22 , its not difficult.
There is a Sweitzer at VIRAGE heli school at Beccles in Suffolk (about same price as 22)
good luck
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PPL and R22
it sounds like you are looking for the easiest path to your goal of being a helicopter pilot.
The R22 has nothing going for it, it's tricky to learn in and a pleasure to fly.
If it goes well, it is because you are capable, if it doesn't go so well it is because you are not good enough!!
It's just a helicopter - stick to the basics and it works. Plus it is usually the cheapest. Learn some Mass and Inertia in a larger helicopter when you have your licence.
As a non pilot you should be considering the School and instructors that will be teaching you and not the type of helicopter you would like to choose.
Consider your future as a pilot - Want to be your best (which is not always the easiest!!) You tend to stay alive longer that way.
Just Doinmabest
The R22 has nothing going for it, it's tricky to learn in and a pleasure to fly.
If it goes well, it is because you are capable, if it doesn't go so well it is because you are not good enough!!
It's just a helicopter - stick to the basics and it works. Plus it is usually the cheapest. Learn some Mass and Inertia in a larger helicopter when you have your licence.
As a non pilot you should be considering the School and instructors that will be teaching you and not the type of helicopter you would like to choose.
Consider your future as a pilot - Want to be your best (which is not always the easiest!!) You tend to stay alive longer that way.
Just Doinmabest
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I agree with almost everything you say -- except that the 22 "has nothing going for it"
Flown properly , within all limits (which should be learned and totally understood) its a fun machine and a good step to bigger (if that's where you wanna go)
Those sentiments apply to ALL flying machines.
regards
Flown properly , within all limits (which should be learned and totally understood) its a fun machine and a good step to bigger (if that's where you wanna go)
Those sentiments apply to ALL flying machines.
regards
R22--The Good----
For most of us without a deep pocket the R22 is a great machine to learn on---its not the easiest but as stated before if you know the limitations and have a good instructor its a great fun machine--From Experience there are schools who will dip your credit card --choose the instructor or the School rather than the machine--and that's been said here before--If you have any doubt about the R22/44 then talk to Mike H@ MFH--he is based at Conington (Peterborough)---he does not so much fly the 22 as wear it--A man with loads of experience--loads of patience--a great instructor--a character-----He completed my PPL(H) when I had just about given up and has taught me, and many others how to fly the machine----and not just to a test standard!!!