Which is the best helicopter for training?
Senis Semper Fidelis
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R22, liked it so much I progressed onto bigger things, but the R22 is a good little machine, just a little wary however about all those 6 and 8mm bolts, the R22 could also do with a little more space inside, and if Frank is listening a bigger engine and three blade's, apart from that its OK, as long as you treat it with care! 
Westland Whirlwind. Seemed ideal to me - you could do all the basic stuff (engine-off landings solo, "Spanish Fuel" (ie Manuel Throttle, with the huge grip on the cyclic for disengaging the mechanical fuel governor so's you could play tunes on the rotorhead via the twistgrip..) sloping ground nose-up with no brakes on the front wheels, etc), yet the same aircraft was also ideal for teaching multi-crew tasks like underslung loads, trooping and SAR.
Or perhaps it was just the top teachers we had at the time. OK, Oldbeefer?
Or perhaps it was just the top teachers we had at the time. OK, Oldbeefer?
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Been in all sort of mil birds prior to getting into the R22.
Fun bird, and I look forward to flying it more often. But I also want to vary my time into the 300 and others if the chance arises.
Heck, I'd go up to Vero Beach in a heartbeat if Nick could arrainge a Commanche ride
Fun bird, and I look forward to flying it more often. But I also want to vary my time into the 300 and others if the chance arises.
Heck, I'd go up to Vero Beach in a heartbeat if Nick could arrainge a Commanche ride
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Hughes TH-55, 269 (Schwietzer 300), Class 65-10, US Army
Have flown and instructed in most all Army stuff thru 1969; Bell47, Hiller UH-12, Hueys, Sikorsky's, etc
After 1969, full time airline pilot, part time continued to fly/instruct most all small civilian stuff
Bottom line..IMHO...the R-22 is the best trainer ever built. It has the economy of operation for the school, and it has flying characteristics most conducive to student transition to all larger machines.
Oh Yeah... I think I have read every word Lu has posted on this and all other forums for the past year. I just wish he would simply attend a RHC Safety Course.
Have flown and instructed in most all Army stuff thru 1969; Bell47, Hiller UH-12, Hueys, Sikorsky's, etc
After 1969, full time airline pilot, part time continued to fly/instruct most all small civilian stuff
Bottom line..IMHO...the R-22 is the best trainer ever built. It has the economy of operation for the school, and it has flying characteristics most conducive to student transition to all larger machines.
Oh Yeah... I think I have read every word Lu has posted on this and all other forums for the past year. I just wish he would simply attend a RHC Safety Course.
The Original Whirly
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R22. Haven't flown anything else yet. <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> Had no intention of being a helicopter pilot anyway; went for a trial lesson because it was free, and got instantly hooked. So I guess I must have liked it. I do know that compared to fixed wing flying it's great, and also compared to most other things I've done. But no idea how it compares to other helicopters. If anyone would like to help me remedy that (help = £££), I'll happily do some research for you.
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R22
It doesn't fly itself, but a trainer shouldn't be too easy. It's not a 'forgiving' aircraft, and can be tricky to fly well but, if you learn the basics in an R22, it makes conversion onto bigger machines much easier.
And, it's the most economical way to learn to fly helicopters. The sales figures speak volumes about the popularity of the machine.
If it wasn't for Frank Robinson, many people wouldn't be flying helicopters at all. Arguably, he's made the biggest contribution to the rotary world since the great Igor.
[ 01 January 2002: Message edited by: Heliport ]</p>
It doesn't fly itself, but a trainer shouldn't be too easy. It's not a 'forgiving' aircraft, and can be tricky to fly well but, if you learn the basics in an R22, it makes conversion onto bigger machines much easier.
And, it's the most economical way to learn to fly helicopters. The sales figures speak volumes about the popularity of the machine.
If it wasn't for Frank Robinson, many people wouldn't be flying helicopters at all. Arguably, he's made the biggest contribution to the rotary world since the great Igor.
[ 01 January 2002: Message edited by: Heliport ]</p>
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Now I can say I learned to fly on the R-22, having just passed the checkride on saturday. I love flying it, I have passenger time in a 206bIII and a UH1-b, no stick time though. I am hoping to fly jayhawks for the coast guard in a couple years. But first I have to get through college.
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R22. Like Whirly, I never intended to be a helicopter pilot but after the trial lesson I was hooked. There was no way I could have justified learning on anything more expensive anyway. The only reason I ever tried in the first place was that the field at the back of my house is too small for an airstrip.
HeliFirst
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Gazelle in the RN. Like learning on a sports car.
Got to instruct on it myself for Westlands in the mid 80's.
topilot or to pprune
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Got to instruct on it myself for Westlands in the mid 80's.
topilot or to pprune
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Gatvol
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OH-23D Hiller (UH-12). Very Forgiving specially when a clod such as myself is behind the stick.......Instruments in an OH-13T Bell (B47) Had to learn the "Touch" all over again....
(ORWAC 70-28)
(ORWAC 70-28)
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Learned to fly on Sycamores, not a great type as strange manual control system and badly co-ordinated throttle. Instructed on Whirlwinds, probably the best training helicopter ever, but only one left flying now. also instructed on B47 - easy but slow reactions to control inputs actually require quite a lot of anticipation from student. Hiller 12 - again strange control system - feels like you are connected to the controls by a bungee. Bell 206 - too easy. You can always tell someone who has done their training on a 206, likewise the R44 now that it has powered controls
. R22 - always contentious but here is my view. Students don't have any greater difficulty learning on it than anything else because it instantly shows errors of handling technique, unlike the B47. Unfortunately, the instructor can never relax in an R22, as things can go wrong so quickly close to the ground, and for this reason it is not an ideal trainer (nothing is, as none of the current types were designed as such).
I think the manual control system on the Enstrom demands too much trimming for comfort. Perhaps the best of the bunch from most aspects apart from cost is the Schweizer 300, the CB model preferably. The only aspect I'm not fond of is the marked nosedown attitude in forward flight, which is uncomfortable if you don't have your feet on the pedals as you tend to slide forwards.
Live long and prosper!
. R22 - always contentious but here is my view. Students don't have any greater difficulty learning on it than anything else because it instantly shows errors of handling technique, unlike the B47. Unfortunately, the instructor can never relax in an R22, as things can go wrong so quickly close to the ground, and for this reason it is not an ideal trainer (nothing is, as none of the current types were designed as such).
I think the manual control system on the Enstrom demands too much trimming for comfort. Perhaps the best of the bunch from most aspects apart from cost is the Schweizer 300, the CB model preferably. The only aspect I'm not fond of is the marked nosedown attitude in forward flight, which is uncomfortable if you don't have your feet on the pedals as you tend to slide forwards.
Live long and prosper!
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The confidence and belief in the R22/44 is interesting, considering the number of posts it gets in an official capacity on the AAIB website!. I have to keep away from helos as If I spend too much time near them I know I'll end up sinking a wad of cash into them. However, I think I'd rather learn in something more substantial, not withstanding the near double cost per hour of a 206 or similar
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STANDTO
"The confidence and belief in the R22/44 is interesting, considering the number of posts it gets in an official capacity on the AAIB website!."
Interesting indeed.
But it's not difficult to work out the reason if you take into account the number of Robinsons relative to other types, that they are the most common/popular training helicopter, and that they are usually flown by newly qualified low-hours pilots.
The B206 is a wonderful helicopter, but most of us could't afford it for training. It's much easier to fly than an R22, but whether that's a good or bad thing is a matter of opinion.
A number of people have mentioned the Gazelle. Now that's a different matter. Fantastic machine - not only for training, but for most other things a PPL (like me) would ever want to do.
Treat yourself to a trial lesson with Al Gwilt at MW Helicopters (Stapleford) and you'll see what I mean! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
[ 13 January 2002: Message edited by: Flying Lawyer ]</p>
"The confidence and belief in the R22/44 is interesting, considering the number of posts it gets in an official capacity on the AAIB website!."
Interesting indeed.
But it's not difficult to work out the reason if you take into account the number of Robinsons relative to other types, that they are the most common/popular training helicopter, and that they are usually flown by newly qualified low-hours pilots.
The B206 is a wonderful helicopter, but most of us could't afford it for training. It's much easier to fly than an R22, but whether that's a good or bad thing is a matter of opinion.
A number of people have mentioned the Gazelle. Now that's a different matter. Fantastic machine - not only for training, but for most other things a PPL (like me) would ever want to do.
Treat yourself to a trial lesson with Al Gwilt at MW Helicopters (Stapleford) and you'll see what I mean! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
[ 13 January 2002: Message edited by: Flying Lawyer ]</p>
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Standto,
I think you will find it you roll a 206 over or crash into something hard, how substantial the aircraft seems is somewhat irrelevant.It will still break and if you hit hard it will break big time.
It would seem to me, from reading numerous AAIB reports, that survivability depends the circumstances of your crash rather than the aircraft you are in.
I think you will find it you roll a 206 over or crash into something hard, how substantial the aircraft seems is somewhat irrelevant.It will still break and if you hit hard it will break big time.
It would seem to me, from reading numerous AAIB reports, that survivability depends the circumstances of your crash rather than the aircraft you are in.
EFT on the Hiller 12E, then the Whirlwind HAS7. Hiller, still remember that first lift into the hover, then away over the Cornish countryside. After trundling up and down runways in a Chippie to get airborne, a wonderful revelation
Not enough baggage space for 2 weeks to Nuremberg and back, but a small price to pay for a "Navex" courtesy of HM taxpayer.
Still recall the sound of the Leonides starting in the Whirlie, each cylinder joining in it's own sweet time. Steely stuff for a callow Midshipman, out with a crewman learning winching and the like. And sitting alongside Malarky Jim hovering for a wheel change after blowing a tyre, running on at Predannack (sp?). Where is Dave Mallock these days?
Not enough baggage space for 2 weeks to Nuremberg and back, but a small price to pay for a "Navex" courtesy of HM taxpayer.
Still recall the sound of the Leonides starting in the Whirlie, each cylinder joining in it's own sweet time. Steely stuff for a callow Midshipman, out with a crewman learning winching and the like. And sitting alongside Malarky Jim hovering for a wheel change after blowing a tyre, running on at Predannack (sp?). Where is Dave Mallock these days?