Which is the best helicopter for training?

[EN48]

I had 4 engine failures (all in Hillers) in my first 1000 hours

WOW! That's an average of one engine failure per 250 hours or less. What's wrong with this picture? I'd probably be thinking of staying out of those Hillers!

[ascj]

it's not about engine failures. it's about knowing what your doing and being able to counter the results of what your students may do to you. An instructor is there to teach by definition. not be learning themselves as well. although i'm sure i'll never stop learning.

I know damn well that before 1000 hours i was far to wet behind the ears to impart my few years knowledge to someone who was paying up to 50g for the ticket to start in this industry for life. 'yeah i learnt with "insert unknown 400hr pilot here" ' i think he/she was just after the hours to get a proper job.'

i have been saved a few times not from the hands on lessons of my instructor but from the knowledge i gained around the table after the flying was over. i'm all for filling my bag of experience with somone else's before letting soeone else(who still needs to) use my bag of luck.

All that said and done if your going to get your first job in a r44 then learn in a 22. if your going mustering it doesn't matter as you'll do another 100 hours in one before your let lose anyways. If you think you can go straight on to a turbine then it doesn't really matter as they all have their strong and weak points. most of which you wont realise and appreciate until you've got a few hours. except for the auto's they are nicest in a 47 (never flown an enstrom), 300's look past your toes and 22's drop the club NOW or it's good night irene.

I learnt in a 47 because of the instructor who flew it ( only one not one different one per day) and because i knew i may never fly one again.(it's in the log book now). i got a job just the same as any else who learnt in any other machine.

While this thread is about what is the best machine to learn in it is important to point out to budding pilots that there is more to it then that.

but learn in a 47

[HillerBee]

'WOW! That's an average of one engine failure per 250 hours or less. What's wrong with this picture? I'd probably be thinking of staying out of those Hillers!'

They where in different Hillers, in a pretty short period, after the fourth I decided not to fly them anymore. It has all to do with maintenance and parts availability, and the people who own Hillers, there are 12e's still in use with companies which are maintaned well.

As Nigel said they are easy to autorotate, but it is quite scary when the donk stops, and I wouldn't recommend them as a training helicopter. (actually I think they should be in a Museum only, 12 A/B/C not the 12D/E)

[Northern Lady]

Phil from Sandtoft

Does anyone know where I can contact Phil (heli instructor) who used to work at Sandtoft Helicopters? I cant remember his surname but he signed T-DIX my log book. I think he went to do some work out in the North Sea.

[R44-pilot]

Northern Lady,

You have PM

[zlydzidek]

R22 vs R44

Hi,

How long does PPL take on R22 and R44? Is it true 22 need more hrs then 44? How muche..?

Thx

[Pigeon-dodger]

300CBi

Wish I had seen this thread earlier…

We have just purchased a new 300CBi as a training machine and priced it to match R22’s whilst trying to believe the marketing material on the operating costs we remain a ‘little unconvinced’, apart from anything, the purchase price is much higher than a 22 so the insurance cost is also higher....so we will see what happens but my guess is these machines should be more money as they cost more and just generally are more to run. However, whatever their cost, I believe they are the best training machine that is realistically affordable to fly.

We have had a few pilots come to us who have tried both the 22 and 300CBi and I must say the choice to buy the 300CBi seems right. We new all the old arguments listed on here but when you listen to people who actually fly it, with little or no experience of other machines, you have to admit the 300 is a good choice.

One particular pilot had started on the 22 but after about 3 of 4 hours was feeling very low in confidence and wondering if he would continue at all, after one flight in the 300CBi he was changed.

He had been put off the 300CBi as it ‘looked a little odd’ but after he flew it came up with a load of reasons we had not really thought about when buying the 300CBi. Whilst we thought he would be impressed by the stability he actually listed these points as to what gave him a good impression.

1) Lots of space in the cabin and he did not ‘feel crowded’
2) He had his own set of controls and was not put off by the instructor reaching up to grab or constantly holding ‘his controls’… in the 22 he felt he constantly had to anticipate ‘letting go’ but in the 300 he did not mind the instructor ‘helping out’ on the instructors set of controls which was very different from grabbing his T bar in the 22….he lost that feeling….’oh balls I just had to give it back again…’ to more of a ‘ok good the instructors helping a bit but not taking control off me’
3) He could actually get on the controls for more than a few seconds and felt he was just ‘doing better’. We asked if he noticed how much more stable it was to which he replied ‘not really’, he just felt he had learned more and had a much better lesson as he got to fly the aircraft more if that was due to the aircraft having better stability then so be it. I think the cabin, as a teaching environment, is just great and the design of the helicopter all goes into making that first good impression.

If I had a second choice it would be the Bell 47 but these are getting on a bit now not sure they are realistic for teaching….

[griffothefog]

Bell 47.

Steady on old chap, I learned to fly in a Bell 47 (D1) wooden blades and single cross tank.... Best machine by far to start learning throttle correlation.... it was loose as my mothers dentures in a glass of water

If the donk quits....... Sort of get the lever down, all the way if you can manage it.... Take your time..... Try and maintain supersonic speed (50-60MPH)... Pull back stick before impact, level, and try to lift the lever a bit as you touch down, but don't worry if it feels too heavy to lift up all the way...

Another auto anyone???

[Pittsextra]

thanks Senior Pilot

[Aucky]

i'll be interested to see whether the Cabri finds itself here in a few years as a serious contender... Pricy, and high insurance costs probably, but as a realistic safe trainer for those who will pay, no mast bumping, huge rpm range in auto, better inertia, auto carb-heat (still don't know why they don't fuel inject 'em), electronic recording of aircraft abuse, nice spacious cockpit, fast for it's size, even a baggage compartment, and if you do get turned upside down in someone wake turbulence you can just roll a few times and fly it back to the right way up, simples

[Pittsextra]

You sure?

I asked an initial question in the private flying section about a suitable machine to do my PPL(H) in.

It started simply because I had a walk around a few machines and the initial impression I gained re: R22/44 was unfavourable simply because the controls just felt wrong. Now I know that is a fairly subjective measure but anyway it didn't sit well. So I asked the question to see if others felt the same, I think the answers were at best a mixed bag ranging from "R22/44 best thing ever to never sit in one for $1m.."

I've decided that I'm going to use a Cabri G2 and I'm looking forward to that but since then (and whilst the question was fresh in my mind) I was looking at this:-

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/189...inson-r44.html

Its a pretty long thread and i'm still working through it but are the R44's today different in design from those that got wrapped up in prior years? There is clearly strong support for the type, but then people still smoke cigarettes right?

Just interested how pilots seem so sure it won't happen to them.

[Vertical Freedom]

Namaste Pittsextra

Well put 'people still smoke' & defend their filthy habit till their last dying choking breath. Same concept goes with the Crapinson Flimsicopter; the blade delaminations, the sub standard structural strength, post crash fires. Mate like smoking kills, so do Robinson's - so steer well clear of them.

Let the music start defending them hahahaha, there're still crap.

The Cabri sounds a good plan, don't forget the good ole' B47 or the H269. Proven, reliable & a good training platform

Happy landings

VF

[FLY 7]

Robinsons have always divided opinion, although the R44 Raven II went a long way to appeasing some critics.

Guimbal G3 looks very interesting, although still in its infancy, and only the one in the UK at Kemble at the moment, I think.

However, if you are in the SW, then you could try the S.300Cs at Gloucs or Dunkerswell.

Infact, worth trying the various options first to see what suits you best - helicopter, instructor, flight school, home airport .... it all goes in your log book.

[topendtorque]

There's another thread close by, revived from a couple of years ago where one dude decided to go for the CBI. I haven't heard how it appealed after the two years, but in light of '47's being very hard to come by and some parts super expensive to buy, I doubt you could go past the CBI.

ERPM limits much more forgiving that the earlier 269 models and MP limits; well there is none. Good to fly, get to fly a throttle a bit, nowhere near as much as a '47 but if in later life and the FCU drops dead on your 206 or the governor on a Robinson, at least you will save yourself.

Having said that I am looking forward to the day I have a go at a Cabri.

[Aucky]

Not going to get into the pro/anti Robbie argument, plenty of threads on that, but i'd suggest you think about what your going to do once you get the license. If you want to carry any passengers any distance, but don't want to fly the robbos you'll have to go for the Enstrom/Jetranger, which is great if you can afford to, and find someone who will rent you one (unless your buying), otherwise you might find yourself going for the 44 when you get bored of trundling around at 80kts, the Schwietzers and 22's are slow, and the Cabri vibrates all over the place above 85kts (don't be fooled by the unsustainable 130 VNE). If your likely going to end up flying a 44 like most private pilots you may as well get the additional 60hrs experience on that type before taking out loved ones. I'm sure you'll end up loving whatever you learn in. Best of luck.

Also looking forward to flying the Cabri, when there are enough of them about to actually hire them etc I'm sure they'll be quite popular, but for now most people will spend the same money on an r44 for actually getting places so I don't see there being a huge number available to learn on or hire any time soon (Currenty 1 in the uk) which is a deterrent. A safe ship though, their crashworthiness record is pretty good

[myuserid]

I've had an hour or so in the Cabri, nice machine but if you want to SFH/hours build etc it will be very difficult with just one Cabri (actually there are now two in the UK according to ginfo).
You need to type rate on either a Robinson or 269 if you want to fly once you've acquired your license!

[Flyting]

Irrespective of who like or hates what, you'll probably end up flying most of them on your path....so why not just go do a demo flight on each one and make up your own mind in flight instead of just looking at them...

It's more about who teaches you and how you end up flying them that you should be worried about.

[Helinut]

If you are a PPL candidate, I suggest you also consider what you plan to fly once you have your licence. It makes sense to learn on what you will fly afterwards, or at least something pretty similar to what you will fly.

Assuming you are not going to buy, you need to take account of what is available to SFH, in your locality.

It is good to seek advice, but you need to evaluate advice, rather than just accept it. (Pretty much the same as anything else, in that respect).

Helicopters are expensive, so your choices are likely to be affected by cost, unless you are pretty unusual/rich, as well as other things.

[helimutt]

Saying you wont fly a Robinson because it "doesnt feel right" ? Have you flown one? I'd suggest you go for a half hour flight in one, especially the Raven II, and then decide. The thing is, once you have a PPL, unless you just plan to do the licence and nothing else, then hiring a helicopter may prove a bit of a pain. Any school with an R44 is going to want you to do a fair but of training on type before letting you loose with one.

Yes, people knock Robinsons, but there a great number of us who fly for a living now, who wouldnt be doing so if it wasn't for the R22 and R44.

Don't just fly a helicopter because 'it looks cooler than the others'

With the cost of flying helicopters so high these days, think carefully where you throw those hard earned beer tokens.

[Pittsextra]

Saying you wont fly a Robinson because it "doesnt feel right" ? Have you flown one? I'd suggest you go for a half hour flight in one, especially the Raven II, and then decide. The thing is, once you have a PPL, unless you just plan to do the licence and nothing else, then hiring a helicopter may prove a bit of a pain. Any school with an R44 is going to want you to do a fair but of training on type before letting you loose with one.

Yes, people knock Robinsons, but there a great number of us who fly for a living now, who wouldnt be doing so if it wasn't for the R22 and R44.

Don't just fly a helicopter because 'it looks cooler than the others'

With the cost of flying helicopters so high these days, think carefully where you throw those hard earned beer tokens.

Hi - Whilst I hear you I'm not sure I agree the sentiment. I don't think anyone is focused on image over safety and there seems a serious point?

I mean tell me why do some of these things appear to fall out of the sky?