Which is the best helicopter for training?

[airborne_artist]

Too many pies have been consumed for me to train on the R22

With the very greatest of respect, would it be sensible, and not just so you could fit in an R22, to shed some of the pie-induced weight? Your medical examiner might be happier.

[Bomb Doctor]

Perhaps 'Pie Eating' was the wrong phrase to use - I am too heavy for the weedy R22, but I did 4 marathons last year, with one of them carrying a 40lb bergan.... Unfortunately, weight is no indication of health.... ask any of the England scrummaging pack

Perhaps to lose weight I could have both my legs amputated?

[Kelly Hopper]

'Been though only about half the posts here so excuse me if this has already been said but:
I did my training in an Enstrom and loved it. Especially the 280c. Looks like a real heli, excellent safety record, forgiving, teaches throttle collolation, comfortable for 2 and can take 3.
Yes there are not so many around these days which always puzzles me as I think they are an excellent machine albiet maintanance can be high. This said I have never paid much more than guys pay in the 22!
I looked at 47's, 22's and chose the Enstrom and have never regretted it.
Went solo in less than 9 hours and ppl in less than 39. (when you could).
Went on to 206 and found that it very straightforward.
If I was doing it all again, even now, I would still find and choose the Enstrom.

[rotors88]

If you get the privilege then train in a B47. The Queen of the Sky. Steer well clear of the Robinson, yes this next statement will be defended & put down by the Robinson fraternity but statistically it has the honour of killing more Pilots than any other machine on the planet. It is build frail & fragile & is the least forgiving. I have had 1 friend killed in a 22 due an inflight break up & almost lost a friend when a 140 hour old blade delaminated on a 44. Paper mashe & Chinese made glue come to mind. Ask an engineer who has worked on a wide variety of machine what they think of the airframe - shiiite. Live Long Live Happy stay the hell away from Robinson

[Whirlygig]

I don't think you'll have any problem with the throttle as you use your left hand

You could try either Hields Aviation or Total Air Management Services for Schweizer training.

Cheers

Whirls

[FLY 7]

The H/S 300 (ideally a 'C') is the perfect trainer - safe, fun, well engineered, intuitive, nice handling, plenty of power, etc.

The throttle shouldn't be a problem as it has a correlator. So you set the throttle position and it automatically adjusts as you raise or lower the collective. You might want to make the occasional tiny manual adjustment, but most of the time it does it for you.

If you are doing more than 100 hours pa then I reckon it becomes viable to buy. Then it's your helicopter, its available when and where you want it, you have a more intimate relationship with it, and you'll probably learn more quickly. And, you own it.

You should get a nice 300C or newer Cbi for around a £100k. But the Enstroms are also excellent helicopters and this 280FX looks very good value

Enstrom 280 FX

[HELOFAN]

Throttle control not an issue.
I have been a bike rider for many years and throttle action was not a concern.
You will take a little getting used to it. You will adapt pretty easily.

Safe auto's are relevant to your airspeed,altitude & how strong the wind is to assist you in the flare.
The higher your airspeed the lower (to a degree) your auto can be.
Its all about how much time you have to react & giving you options to set it down with out balling it up.

In a 300/22
Auto's are generally practiced from about 600ft AGL / 70 knots but can be done higher at less airspeeds or lower at higher airspeeds.

Hover autos (either stationary or moving at a slow walking pace, are generally practiced at 3-5 feet.

Different helicopters have different performance characteristics.

HF

[206Fan]

Mateyboy.

Don't let negative comments on here about the Robinsons put you off it, its a excellent machine to fly, i love flying the 22. Take a spin in the R22 and the S300 to see which you prefer.

Dave

[HillerBee]

Only the Hughes 269, which became the Schweizer, is designed as a training helicopter.

After a number of hours you're fully used to the throttle and you don't even think about it anymore. The autorotation characteristics of a Schweizer are very good. The Enstrom autorotates the best, but if you move to other types later, you might be spoiled if you're used to the Enstrom.

[SASless]

Correlator.....we used to dream of them things....a real helicopter pilot don't need no stinking Correlator!
















Governors are much better!

[boatpro]

I agree Davey with your sentiments regarding R22's, but I think that he has already saif that he is to heavy for the 22. For the benifit of all others that are in the same position and deciding what to train on, I would like to add the following.

I am 20hrs in to my training and being trained on R22's, I am also on the heavy side and most of my time have been in a Beta II, although I have had three hours out of my 20 in standard R22 with a little less power.

I belief that learning in an R22 will make me a better pilot in the long run. Yes it is lively, and you do have to be on the ball with autos, but I also tried the 300 before choosing a school and personally prefered the R22.

Enstrom 280's can be picked up for incredible money in the current economy, but, the engine will never ever make life, it loves fuel and will generally cost quite a bit more to run than the Robo.

As a motorcycle rider myself, the throttle has never been an issue, I think that the left hand oporation, together with the level of concentration required when you are learning, means that it just does not enter your head to turn it the wrong way.....although......I will admit that I have done when preflighting and checking throttle opening on the carb when standing outside the left side of the machine!

All in all though, hardest, but best thing that I have ever done, sold one of the kids so far, if anyone would like to purchase a twelve year old, to large to get up chimneys but will keep your house nice....offers on a postcard please... then I can get my next twenty hours done!

[boatpro]

Hi Mateyboy,

Have you thought about Florida, weather fantastic, I flew 10 hours a week last week and the week before, 1 hour in the morning, 1 hour in the afternoon and an hour ground school inbetween.

When I go back in February I will do another 10 hours in a week and then final 10 ish in March.

Bristows have about 20 300's. A lot to be said for getting it done in blocks, I have really enjoyed being focused on flying with no interuptions.

However you choose to go forward, good luck.

[Winnie]

I belief that learning in an R22 will make me a better pilot in the long run. Yes it is lively, and you do have to be on the ball with autos, but I also tried the 300 before choosing a school and personally prefered the R22.

Utter rollocs.

Whichever machine you choose, will not have ANY impact of your skills as a pilot. All helicopters use the same controls, (i.e. Cyclic, Collective, pedals) so wether you learn on one or the other, does not matter.

People are talking of safety records and the Robinson products, I think you'll find, doing a careful study, that MOST of the accidents are caused by STUPID PILOTS, and not poorly designed helicopters.

You might also find that the statistics show the Robinsons as safe as any of the other machines, just that there have been a heck of a lot more produced, thus it APPEARS that there are more accidents.

As an aside, have you guys thought about traveling to Canada to train? might be another oportunity, might not be QUITE as cheap as the US, but no worrisome J-1 troubles, and a "free" 1 year "working holiday visa" at your discretion.

I know of some people who might even be considering doing some JAR training...

[ReverseFlight]

Just to elaborate on HillerBee's contribution.

The Schweizer 300 was designed as a training helicopter. However the Hughes 269, its forerunner, was originally designed for the US Army as an LOH (Light Observation Helicopter).

In 1986, Schweizer acquired all rights to the helicopter from McDonnell Douglas, who purchased Hughes Helicopters in 1984. After Schweizer acquired the FAA Type Certificate, the helicopter was known for a short time as the Schweizer-Hughes 300C and then simply, the Schweizer 300C.

[Gaseous]

Re: the throttle issue. It seems to be a real problem for some Robinson pilots who migrate to other non governed types particularly when low hours on the new type. They just dont manipulate the throttle enough when there is a sudden demand for a big power change. Even more of a problem when the pilot is under pressure.

It can be learned successfully but there are loads of dead Enstroms as a result of low rpm accidents with a low hour Robbie trained pilot at the controls. If you only intend to fly a Robinson, fine - train in a Robinson. If you intend to subsequently move to a non governed/correlated type it may be less traumatic in the long run to train in that type.


PS. The insurance write off I recently bought was as a result of such an accident. Robbie pilots first outing on his own in his Enstrom too. Ouch!

[RMK]

R22. The R22 was developed in the 1070’s whereas 300 dates from the 1950’s. As for reliability, the training school which owns more 300s than anyone else and a smaller group of R22s, noted that their 300s are always breaking and requiring maintenance, whereas the R22s only ever need fuel. The 300 is grossly over engineered in some areas and then quite fragile in others.

Training is about making yourself a good pilot, which I think is counterintuitive to just seeking the easiest-to-fly helicopter.

Why pay more money for a worse helicopter? If you going up the price, go ahead and add a little more and train in a R44 Raven1 which can be found with low training rates.

[rick1128]

I did my Commercial add-on and Helicopter CFI in the 300 C & CBi. I did a demo flight in a R22 but didn't like how it handled or fit. The controls didn't feel like a real helicopter. I did a SFAR 73 checkout in the R44 which confirmed my feeling about the flight controls. I bought an Enstrom F28C after looking at the R22, S300 and B47. And I had not problem checking out in a BH206A or flying an AStar or BH212.

It seems like the first thing every Robbie driver says to defend the Robbie is how fast it is. I have yet to find a training requirement for helicopter pilots that says anything about speed. They only mention time and distance.

When you buy a used anything, you will always have to correct the previous owner's abuses. No matter what you purchase. Helicopters, airplanes, cars, etc. The school I went to used 300's exclusively and I didn't see any major down time due to unscheduled maintenance. For training, I feel the CBi is better than the C as it is power limited and the student will learn power management better than the C. They are used commercially.

The Enstrom is more of a private owners type helicopter. It has excellent component times. The 28A and 280A are normally aspirated so they are a little limited. I did my Instrument and CFII in a 28A in Texas in July, if that tells you anything. The engines on the turbo charged models will make TBO, but you have to watch the limitations and change the oil regularly. As for being more expensive, if I am going somewhere, I burn 14 to 15 gph, if I am just putzing around at 80 kts or so, I burn 10 or less.

[HillerBee]

Another stupid remark you hear all the time is, if you can fly a R22 you can fly anything. The same remark is made by the Schweizer, Bell47 and Hiller fans. If you are qualified to fly helicopters, you should be able to fly anything.

The first time I flew a R22 was when I had about 700 hours, a friend (highly experienced instructor) took me up, because I always refused to sit in one, let alone fly. I did not have any problem flying it, hovering or what ever. Did 4.5 hours in it, didn't like it at all, and decided never to fly one again. The R44 is a totally different helicopter, flies really well and safe for the more experienced pilot, in my view.

The Enstrom 280 is the perfect two seater for travel, and if that's your goal, you should also train on one.

[flingwinging it]

my 2 cents worth

to answer Kiwi Skiv's question, here's what I think based on having gotten my PPL and Instrument ratings in a R22, and my Commercial and CFI in a 300:

The Robbie has to be seen for what it was intended for: personal use, not training. Just last year I sat front row in Torrence, listening to Frank himself tell us how he did not build the R22 to be a trainer, but since it's so widely being used as one, it gets judged as one too often. It was designed for practicality: speed, minimum fuss (therefor the addition of a governor), endurance and safety. So it's a traveling man's helicopter, and at that, it is good. It is a very 'basic' heli: no fuss about it. Get in, crank it up, fly away. That is basically the crux of your training experience in it. Yes, you will learn numerous menouvers, as is required for the rating, so there's more to it than just getting in and flying, but hopefully you'll get what I'm trying to say.

My experience with the 300CBi is that it is more of a 'real world experience', if you will. The bigger cabin, giving the illusion of flying something much bigger. The lack of a governor, forcing you to learn to use the throttle (operating without the governor is barely touched in the R22, even though it should be covered a lot, for your benefit), sitting much higher above the ground, the more-than-two rotor blade experience, the 'fill her to the top every time' experience (well, most of the time!), the skid dampers that gives landings a 'dynamic' feeling (almost like having wheels), and so on and so forth.

Some say the Robbies are cheaper, and though they are, a lot of schools that have both will charge the same, so if you chose the right school, you might be able to fly both to build hours.

In my opinion, the perfect training sequence would be as follows: PPL in the 300, so the student can learn to 'listen' to the engine and have direct control over it by means of the throttle control and lack of governor (get the basics right). If you can sneak in some R22 time during PPL training, good. Once you got the rating, I'd recommend the R22 for your instrument rating, as it flies much faster more of the time, so you get to shoot more approaches without holding up too much traffic and wasting too much time getting vectored due to low ground speed. There is a counter argument about cruising at 85 kts in the 300, but believe me, in a headwind, you want to be in the 22 during instrument approaches. I've flown in 40kts headwinds, having to fly backwards just to get into settiling with power (for training). I never struggled to get into Settling with the 22. Also, you don't want to learn to fly the heli during your IFR training: you want to learn how to fly the instruments, so you don't want to worry too much about stuff you don't have to in the R22, like controlling the rpm's.

In Kiwi's case, I see you are aiming for the CPL. If you cannot diversify your training by flying both (22 and 300), I'd go for the 300, UNLESS money is an issue (based on the options available).

In a 300 you are also more exposed to torque effect during normal flight ops, brought on by your own throttle skills, what the effects are and how to deal with it, getting a better idea of basic helcopter dynamics and what effects various forces have on it, like for instance Coriollis effect during pick-ups and what it does to your rrpm's, turning clockwise versus anti clockwise in a hover, and how it also affects your rrpm's, and so on. I'm sure you get my drift. In the R22, those raw effects are moved to the background by the governor.

RRPM control during autos between student where one did his training in a 22 and one in a 300 differs vastly (at first). The typical 22 student also has a much harder time controlling the rpm's when he gets into the 300 for the first time than the other way round.

You can have a thousand hours in a 22 and never touched throttle control to the degree you do in a 300, and if you fly a 206 or 407 (or anything for that matter), and might end up being forced to do throttle control during a failure, I'd say the Employer would like to know that you will easily be able to do it without overspeeding components that could turn a $1000 governor failure into a $40 000 overspeed problem... or worse.

DISCLAIMER (for all the critics!): these are my opinions, and though yours may be different based on your experience, the Kiwi-man asked an honest question, and this is an honest answer!

[FLY 7]

When I made my own enquiries about this, some time ago, those in the know were very specific that the 300C is significantly better than the 300CBi.

The 'C' is quite a bit more expensive but, when I enquired, Cbis were readiy available - yet there was a two year wait for a new 'C'. In some parts of the world they are very sought after for utility work.