Which is the best helicopter for training?
Senis Semper Fidelis
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Horses for courses, a lot depends on your ability to pick up what you are shown by the instructor, and if you have a good instructor and you can pick it up pretty well asap, then realy both would pan out about the same.
However if you master the R22 and I mean master it well, then you would find no difficulty in transferring to another heli later on and then you would see just how hard and twitchy the R22 is.
But treat all helicopters with respect, they will snarl at you and bite your backside so quickly that you will only realise something is wrong at about the last point of recovery! never fly into clouds and never try to do somthing that you aint been shown, once you pass your test, then you'll start to learn how to fly and find your way round
Fly safe, land safer!!
Vfr
PeterR-B
However if you master the R22 and I mean master it well, then you would find no difficulty in transferring to another heli later on and then you would see just how hard and twitchy the R22 is.
But treat all helicopters with respect, they will snarl at you and bite your backside so quickly that you will only realise something is wrong at about the last point of recovery! never fly into clouds and never try to do somthing that you aint been shown, once you pass your test, then you'll start to learn how to fly and find your way round
Fly safe, land safer!!
Vfr
PeterR-B
gwells - you might as well go for the R22 as they are widely available and if you can hack the learning curve in it then as VFR says anything else will be easy. If you want an easier time in a less twitchy helo then go Schwiezer.
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You are concerned now with your PPL course. But, think a bit further ahead - what will you fly when you have your licence? Probably an R22, unless you want to go to something bigger and EVEN more expensive.
The R22 has a reasonable turn of speed for a 2 seat flying motorcycle, contrasting with the more gentlemanly pace of the 300.
In that case, it may be sensible to learn on what you will fly solo. As others have said, it is easy to convert from an R22, less easy to convert to it.
H
The R22 has a reasonable turn of speed for a 2 seat flying motorcycle, contrasting with the more gentlemanly pace of the 300.
In that case, it may be sensible to learn on what you will fly solo. As others have said, it is easy to convert from an R22, less easy to convert to it.
H
Hovering AND talking
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Although I have not seen any statistics to back this up, I have heard that you can pass your PPL with fewer hours on a Schweizer. It was designed to be training helicopter, a job which it does admirably. The R22 was designed as cheap personal transport; again, a job it does more than satisfactorily.
However, once you have got your licence, what breed are the nearest helicopters to you? If you have a choice and they are equidistant and you're not totally strapped for cash, the Schweizer can carry 2 passengers (if one of them is thin!!). This may have a bearing on what you plan to do with your licence when you Self-Fly Hire.
The Schweizer handles and feels like a bigger machine, has a fully-articulated rotorhead (which means you can chuck it around the sky), and makes Engine-Off landings a comparative doddle.
Although R22s are the most common training machine, S300s are catching up.
Cheers
Whirlygig
PS - Yes, I AM biased as I learnt on S300C (fuel-injected version - no carb heat) but, as I went through the same decision making process as yourself (Since I also had a choice with Bell 47 and Enstrom 280 thrown in), that was the decision I made.
However, once you have got your licence, what breed are the nearest helicopters to you? If you have a choice and they are equidistant and you're not totally strapped for cash, the Schweizer can carry 2 passengers (if one of them is thin!!). This may have a bearing on what you plan to do with your licence when you Self-Fly Hire.
The Schweizer handles and feels like a bigger machine, has a fully-articulated rotorhead (which means you can chuck it around the sky), and makes Engine-Off landings a comparative doddle.
Although R22s are the most common training machine, S300s are catching up.
Cheers
Whirlygig
PS - Yes, I AM biased as I learnt on S300C (fuel-injected version - no carb heat) but, as I went through the same decision making process as yourself (Since I also had a choice with Bell 47 and Enstrom 280 thrown in), that was the decision I made.
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Granted, if you can learn to fly the R22, and learn to fly it well you should be able to fly anything. But the 300CBi is a far superior machine. It is a much more stable helicopter, which will help to learn the tricky art of hovering, and I believe a student will go solo in a shorter time in a 300. It is a much more forgiving helicopter, Vfrpilotpb is 100% correct, every helicopter has to be treated with respect. With the fully articulated rotor head you dont have to be concerned with "zero g" situations, something when you have more time under your belt, you will be better suited to recognising and solving the problem. And 300's are not restricted to wind speed and gustiness. Also, the 300's, the C and CBi models are injected, so we don't have to worry about carb icing problems, as Whirlygig said.
I also think they are a much sturdier airframe then the R22.
But before anyone says, yes I do have R22 time. But with about 750hrs in the 300 I prefer them by far to anything, except maybe a nice turbine machine.
Hughesy
I also think they are a much sturdier airframe then the R22.
But before anyone says, yes I do have R22 time. But with about 750hrs in the 300 I prefer them by far to anything, except maybe a nice turbine machine.
Hughesy
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Am I the only one who is tired of hearing this entirely unfounded claim: "if you can fly the R22 you can fly anything"? Lets tell it like it is. If you can fly the Schweizer, you can fly anything. Except the R22. The R22 doesn't make you a better 300CB pilot, even though yes, it is easier to transition from the R22 to the Schweizer than vice versa. There is nothing in the nature of the R22 to give you superior skills - the teetering rotor means you have to learn differently, that's all. It's the mistake of people who don't actually understand learning who assume if it's harder, you learn better. If that were so, we should have all learned to write while wearing boxing gloves.
If you plan to fly R22s exclusively, then you will be best served by training in the R22. But consider this - we offer training in both the R22 and the 300CB. Many of our new students take discovery flights in both aircraft (we encourage it). Most of them choose the Schweizer, even at $15/hour more.
As whirlygig said, the R22 was not designed as a trainer. It is only used as such because it is inexpensive to buy and fly. Kudos to Frank Robinson for building a full-circle helicopter industry, but the Schweizer is the helicopter designed and built from the ground up for training. At the end of 1,000 hours in either, there isn't going to be any difference in piloting skills (except in the Robinson or Schweizer).
Anyone who claims differently is demonstrating cult behavior!
If you plan to fly R22s exclusively, then you will be best served by training in the R22. But consider this - we offer training in both the R22 and the 300CB. Many of our new students take discovery flights in both aircraft (we encourage it). Most of them choose the Schweizer, even at $15/hour more.
As whirlygig said, the R22 was not designed as a trainer. It is only used as such because it is inexpensive to buy and fly. Kudos to Frank Robinson for building a full-circle helicopter industry, but the Schweizer is the helicopter designed and built from the ground up for training. At the end of 1,000 hours in either, there isn't going to be any difference in piloting skills (except in the Robinson or Schweizer).
Anyone who claims differently is demonstrating cult behavior!
Hovering AND talking
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go for the R22. if will make you a better pilot.
The R22 will not necessarily make you a better pilot; that will be down to your attitude and that of your instructor.
There is only ONE reason why the ubiquitous Robbie is everywhere (if that's not a tortology!) and that is that it is CHEAP. It is the cheapest to buy and run; that is all. Nothing to do with it's suitability as a trainer.
if you ever want to pursue flying as a career, R22 exprience is more useful/sought-afer.
As far as I can see, there is only ONE reason to learn on a Robbie and that is because they are so available. Available for SFH, training, and if you wanted to be an instructor.
However, my hours in an R22 are still in single figures (about 50 times fewer than my S300 hours). So it's best to take advice from somebody who has flown both for some time. So perhaps respondents should just add at the bottom of their post what percentage of time they have in both?
Cheers
Whirlygig
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If you have the option of either type, splash out on a demo flight in each, you'll soon understand the difference between them and have a preference for one. The schools that run these aircraft will also be different, their styles, attitude et cetera. Make sure you go armed with lots of questions, a notepad and a camera so you can take shots of the aircraft to help you make your decision after your visits. Five minutes of thinking (and trying) is worth a week of work. M
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Bell 47's
I love the Bell 47 for training, auto's great, large rotor diameter. Real great fun to fly. It's just soooo expensive to maintain. That's it's only down fall I feel... It's a shame there arn't many around anymore...
Darren
Darren
Go for the cheapest.
If you can do it in a Dragonfly.........go for it.
Nobody cares in the long run.
One thing: do your fixed wing PPL first and take the savings. Get the licence, it will come in useful for NVFR ratings and IFR Ratings later on.
Three facts:
Nobody uses the H300 commercially. It is good to learn the correlation between throttle and RRPM and all the associated issues.
R22 is great to learn on and used commercially all over the planet. Easy transition on to the R44.
The B47 is almost obsolete. You have a 1% chance of ever flying one commercially. Great to learn on and fun. I love it. Good transition aircraft to the Bell 206.
Most of all. Do it affordably. You will need the money to pay the rent over the next couple of years.
If you can do it in a Dragonfly.........go for it.
Nobody cares in the long run.
One thing: do your fixed wing PPL first and take the savings. Get the licence, it will come in useful for NVFR ratings and IFR Ratings later on.
Three facts:
Nobody uses the H300 commercially. It is good to learn the correlation between throttle and RRPM and all the associated issues.
R22 is great to learn on and used commercially all over the planet. Easy transition on to the R44.
The B47 is almost obsolete. You have a 1% chance of ever flying one commercially. Great to learn on and fun. I love it. Good transition aircraft to the Bell 206.
Most of all. Do it affordably. You will need the money to pay the rent over the next couple of years.
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There are pros and cons to each ship, but Steve76 has it right! The debate between Schweizer and Robinson is getting pretty old... worse than MAC vs PC! Do what's economical and geographically convenient for your PPL. Then, you can make changes that will have an impact on your future.
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Nobody uses the H300 commercially..
LOTS of folks using the H269/300 series commercially (including me).
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Dito RDRickster, all a moment in time. The best helicopter will be the one you trained on, your daddy or that rich aunt with the bad cough bought for you, or whichever you can presently get your hands on.
From the bottom of a trench
I suppose one way to be sure with this is to find out the average time to either first solo or ppl(h) on all types
My school uses 300C's average to first solo is about 15 hours.( all students have been up to lesson 14 and done 5 eol's) Worst was 22 best 6. Health warning here the guy with 22 was flying 1 hour a fortnight, the guy with 5 had 400 fixed wing and was naturally very good.
Personally as an instructor/examiner the 300 allows a greater margin or error.
I will keep my head down now
I suppose one way to be sure with this is to find out the average time to either first solo or ppl(h) on all types
My school uses 300C's average to first solo is about 15 hours.( all students have been up to lesson 14 and done 5 eol's) Worst was 22 best 6. Health warning here the guy with 22 was flying 1 hour a fortnight, the guy with 5 had 400 fixed wing and was naturally very good.
Personally as an instructor/examiner the 300 allows a greater margin or error.
I will keep my head down now
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Hey All,
another consideration I have when about to make this decision (and I'm planning to go CPL, training in the UK), is apart from paying for a CFI, and doing some hours in the UK instructing, what helo offers the low timer the best chance of employment abroad, and in what roles (sorry to head off in a tangent)....
eg types used for mustering, tuna boats etc etc..?
I'm curious about what roles are open to low hours worldwide - but realise this is a question for another thread perhaps...
Cheers,
Bluestack
another consideration I have when about to make this decision (and I'm planning to go CPL, training in the UK), is apart from paying for a CFI, and doing some hours in the UK instructing, what helo offers the low timer the best chance of employment abroad, and in what roles (sorry to head off in a tangent)....
eg types used for mustering, tuna boats etc etc..?
I'm curious about what roles are open to low hours worldwide - but realise this is a question for another thread perhaps...
Cheers,
Bluestack
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If you are short of cash and want to fly helicopters then you have to take the cheepest option (R22).
If you want to learn to fly on a properly designed helicopter then you have to go for the H300 varients. 2000 US military pilots can't be wrong.
A Schweizer is superior, no doubt.
BUT you have to look at where you will do your training. Somewhere close to home and that means when you have youe licence it is there that you will go to SFH.
If you want to learn to fly on a properly designed helicopter then you have to go for the H300 varients. 2000 US military pilots can't be wrong.
A Schweizer is superior, no doubt.
BUT you have to look at where you will do your training. Somewhere close to home and that means when you have youe licence it is there that you will go to SFH.
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I trained in a 300C and developed a great affection for the little beast a.k.a. "pissquick" or "cab-over-chainsaw". After I got my license I acquired a 269B (a different story). Anyway, if you go with the 300, you will never forget your first auto 
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At the current (USA) costs for R22 vs 300CB time, the difference in cost over 200 hours will be $1500 or less. The first time you experience (as a CFI) your student rolling the throttle the wrong way in low-RPM training in a R22, that $1500 isn't going to seem nearly worth it. 
