New Zealand - Training Schools and Job Prospects
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: new zealand
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purchase, train then sell ??
thinking about buying a machine, training for a year or so then selling the machine. has anyone been down this track? is really worth it in the end?
thinking H300C or R44astro for resale and versitility. I am a LAME so can maintain myself. I am not based near a city so buying into a syndicate is not really suitable, thinking it's a reasonably good time to purchase out of the states........... thoughts?
thanks guys
thinking H300C or R44astro for resale and versitility. I am a LAME so can maintain myself. I am not based near a city so buying into a syndicate is not really suitable, thinking it's a reasonably good time to purchase out of the states........... thoughts?
thanks guys
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Good to see some operators coming up with some sense on this thread. I posted my thoughts on the loan scheme a while ago and some people weren't too happy to hear the truth. 
But put it this way. If twenty pilots sent in C.V.s for my position and nineteen of them were student loan pilots there would be only one getting an interview ( the one who slogged it out and paid for it himself). The very fact that you haven't had the guts to do it the hard way tells me more about your attitude to life and work than any interview. The last thing I want is someone who will take shortcuts in one of my machines. For the young fella who is thinking it's all too hard and the bright lights and flashy web sites have hooked you in. Spend a few days calling in on some operators and get the real story from them. Don't waste $100,000+ of your (or my) money (yes the rest of us are paying for it not Aunty Helen.) And Paul that was a very sad little add mate!!!
But put it this way. If twenty pilots sent in C.V.s for my position and nineteen of them were student loan pilots there would be only one getting an interview ( the one who slogged it out and paid for it himself). The very fact that you haven't had the guts to do it the hard way tells me more about your attitude to life and work than any interview. The last thing I want is someone who will take shortcuts in one of my machines. For the young fella who is thinking it's all too hard and the bright lights and flashy web sites have hooked you in. Spend a few days calling in on some operators and get the real story from them. Don't waste $100,000+ of your (or my) money (yes the rest of us are paying for it not Aunty Helen.) And Paul that was a very sad little add mate!!!
Join Date: Oct 2005
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206
Interesting theory
All pilots who have funded there licence through student loan could not possibly have the work ethic to be a valuable asset to you operation?
That theory is almost as stupid as the student loan scam itself. Just because you borrowed the money interest free does not mean you have less of a work ethic than the guy who funded it himself.
Why would I work my ass off for 5 years in a job I do not enjoy (and pay my taxes which go towards other students learning to fly on an interest free loans) to save enough money to complete my CPL when I could borrow the money interest free, complete my licence, get into the industry, and work my ass off doing what I enjoy?
Don’t get me wrong. The student loan scam is a joke and I do not agree with it. But why would you delay your start in the industry by not taking advantage of interest free money while others do?
Interesting theory
All pilots who have funded there licence through student loan could not possibly have the work ethic to be a valuable asset to you operation?
That theory is almost as stupid as the student loan scam itself. Just because you borrowed the money interest free does not mean you have less of a work ethic than the guy who funded it himself.
Why would I work my ass off for 5 years in a job I do not enjoy (and pay my taxes which go towards other students learning to fly on an interest free loans) to save enough money to complete my CPL when I could borrow the money interest free, complete my licence, get into the industry, and work my ass off doing what I enjoy?
Don’t get me wrong. The student loan scam is a joke and I do not agree with it. But why would you delay your start in the industry by not taking advantage of interest free money while others do?
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Loaners
It’s not the student loan scheme that’s at fault. It’s the administration and the unethical operators who take any Johnny that walks through the door.
In my limited involvement with the student scheme (5 years with 3 flt trg operators), there were a large number of individual whom suddenly decided that they were going to be pilots today. So after an initial interview and tour of the hangar which they failed to name one type of the four to five choppers in the hangar, (some calling the R22 a 300, to my disgust) it was a quick thanks for calling in and I let you know if we have any slots available (don’t call me, we’ll call you) and off they we went across the field to these other guys.
And then when the guys or gals whom had done sometime as a Ag / loopy loady, crewman or a shooter, dreaming of the day they are at the control, or the guy that had saved the cash (shearing, on the chain, or dodging bullets in Iraqi) and were smart enough to use the loan to their advantage, Then I had a slot for them, once they completed there exams (not like these other operators).
Some of these on potential loaners, I won’t even let them wash a machine, let alone fly it.
Remember. Have a plan, and work the plan, network! The only person interested in your aviation career is you!
2dogs
In my limited involvement with the student scheme (5 years with 3 flt trg operators), there were a large number of individual whom suddenly decided that they were going to be pilots today. So after an initial interview and tour of the hangar which they failed to name one type of the four to five choppers in the hangar, (some calling the R22 a 300, to my disgust) it was a quick thanks for calling in and I let you know if we have any slots available (don’t call me, we’ll call you) and off they we went across the field to these other guys.
And then when the guys or gals whom had done sometime as a Ag / loopy loady, crewman or a shooter, dreaming of the day they are at the control, or the guy that had saved the cash (shearing, on the chain, or dodging bullets in Iraqi) and were smart enough to use the loan to their advantage, Then I had a slot for them, once they completed there exams (not like these other operators).
Some of these on potential loaners, I won’t even let them wash a machine, let alone fly it.
Remember. Have a plan, and work the plan, network! The only person interested in your aviation career is you!
2dogs
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Sick of the excuses
R22 guy,
That sounds like a lot of excuses.
Boo Hoo life's soooo tough I couldn't do it on my own. Didn't have the time or money. Sick of hearing it. Work hard and get there. The world owes you nothing. Never be jeleous of the guy who took the easy way out. The best things in life are hard to get. The rest of us worked in those jobs that we didn't like for years and scrimped and saved to get where we are now. I heard of a student loan pilot who gave up on a loading job the week before the R44 arrived that he was going to fly on frost. The boss was down on frost flying it and was pretty pissed off. Just another of the horror stories that are going around. It's no wonder that we don't want to hire these guys.
I agree with 2 Dogs. The schools need to get thier act together as well. What is so wrong these days with saying "sorry you've done 25 hrs and not gone solo, you're just not cut out for this son". Save alot of money.
I have a guy here who took about 12 years to get his licence and works bloody hard. Guess who will be doing my frost for me this year...
That sounds like a lot of excuses.
Boo Hoo life's soooo tough I couldn't do it on my own. Didn't have the time or money. Sick of hearing it. Work hard and get there. The world owes you nothing. Never be jeleous of the guy who took the easy way out. The best things in life are hard to get. The rest of us worked in those jobs that we didn't like for years and scrimped and saved to get where we are now. I heard of a student loan pilot who gave up on a loading job the week before the R44 arrived that he was going to fly on frost. The boss was down on frost flying it and was pretty pissed off. Just another of the horror stories that are going around. It's no wonder that we don't want to hire these guys. I agree with 2 Dogs. The schools need to get thier act together as well. What is so wrong these days with saying "sorry you've done 25 hrs and not gone solo, you're just not cut out for this son". Save alot of money.
I have a guy here who took about 12 years to get his licence and works bloody hard. Guess who will be doing my frost for me this year...
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206dvr
So what are your thoughts on the pilots who have had their start by learning to fly daddy's machine (or with daddy's money) and then straight into a job?
Is that really different to using a loan to pursue an avaition career? At least the loan guys are paying it off and not letting dad say "don't worry son you can buy me a beer!"
How you you say that only the guys that have paid their way have work ethic? I have met some right D***HEADS that have been through the loan scheme, but I have also met loads of pilots have paid their way, or given the money from the parents that also fit the D***HEAD bill.
Work ethic, and therefore someone I would hire comes from how they present themselves and work as students, making that extra bit of effort to show their keen. Regardless of how they pay for the licence.
The pilots I know have come through that sceme have made professional, hard working pilots.
So what are your thoughts on the pilots who have had their start by learning to fly daddy's machine (or with daddy's money) and then straight into a job?
Is that really different to using a loan to pursue an avaition career? At least the loan guys are paying it off and not letting dad say "don't worry son you can buy me a beer!"
How you you say that only the guys that have paid their way have work ethic? I have met some right D***HEADS that have been through the loan scheme, but I have also met loads of pilots have paid their way, or given the money from the parents that also fit the D***HEAD bill.
Work ethic, and therefore someone I would hire comes from how they present themselves and work as students, making that extra bit of effort to show their keen. Regardless of how they pay for the licence.
The pilots I know have come through that sceme have made professional, hard working pilots.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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206dvr...I have a very similar idea to goose...but I'm not a lame unfortunately!
I am a fixed wing ppl instead and did the same thing then...bought an aircraft and trained on it, worked a treat and it was great flying the same machine (your own) day in and day out. Silly as it sounds I think my skills improved quicker as well as I certainly didn't want to abuse/bend my own baby!
Wonder if there is a need for an extra machine in wanaka?
I am a fixed wing ppl instead and did the same thing then...bought an aircraft and trained on it, worked a treat and it was great flying the same machine (your own) day in and day out. Silly as it sounds I think my skills improved quicker as well as I certainly didn't want to abuse/bend my own baby!
Wonder if there is a need for an extra machine in wanaka?
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Hughesy I have yet to meet any student loan guys that I would hire as a pilot. Don't get me wrong on this subject, it is the scheme that is turning out the wrong type of guy not the other way around. I really want these guys to stop filling the trainees with bull about what it's like out there. There are too many dickheads out there (you just have to go on a frost night to see that) Whether its daddys money or my tax money it all comes too easily probably. Just my thoughts.
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I know of a few of these so-called "dickheads" who recieved funding from the government. Many are in canada and PNG flying, some are into their 4th stint and have already paid off their $70-80,000 student loans, not a bad effort considering if they didnt take a loan they would still be well and truely slogging it out. 206, you would rather a slogger with 150 hours to fly your machine or a 2500 hour loaner? The student loan scheme is a good idea but should only be available to a selected few.....the ones that can tell the difference between an r22 and a 300 would be a start.
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Gotta love this subject. Sounds like the loan scheme wasn't available to 206dvr when he/she trained??? Anybody with any sense (and cash) would still use an intrest free loan whilst investing their hard earned money in something that will give a good return.... i.e. NOT AVIATION!!!
Join Date: Dec 2006
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I don't think 206dvr has an issue with the Student loan system. The issue is the people getting the loans. Firstly a majority have been ripped off by various schools around the country racking up loans in excess of $100,000 a bare CPL with ratings on everything from R22's to AS350 as I said in an earlier post the best I have come across was a guy with a $140,000 loan who trained at Chrisrtchurch helicopters a few years back. Second issue is some of the guys you should be training with are outside schools so loan doesn't apply, why should you get a loan to be trained by a 400hr C cat and if you go with a one man band outfit and the guy has 20,000 odd hours you can't get one..makes NO SENSE to me..the last issue is the person who wakes up one morning thinking hey I need a licence to score more chicks in the pub (sorry boys a CPL licence doesn't increase your dick length) and give me a bit more strut..they get there 100,000 dollar loan realise getting a job is hard work and chuck it in or like Hughesy said "cleaning the machine is below them" I can't believe some I have met..Jeans around there knees with there ass hanging out, more oil in there hair then the sump on the machine, more jewellery in there face then a punk from central london, and more strut then the farmyard king rooster..and this is someone who wants to fly your 2 and half million dollar piece of machinery !!
Loans ALL GOOD takes lots of stress off, how about having to do another trade first or proof you have spent at least two years in the industry before hand....AND YOU CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A 300 and a R22
SL
Loans ALL GOOD takes lots of stress off, how about having to do another trade first or proof you have spent at least two years in the industry before hand....AND YOU CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A 300 and a R22
SL
Join Date: Aug 2006
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I did my licence in 2002 (with a 20000 hr pilot from taupo) and it was just at the start of the student loan scheme. I was fortunate to have parents that could gaurantee a loan from the bank for me so I could finish the last 100hrs in one go, but they wouldn't do it till I had gone out and earnt the money and completed my ppl, this way it proved that I was keen and wanted to do my licence, Why not do this for the student loan system and only fund the commercial part of their training? at least that way you will seperate the wheat from the chaff
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Many in the training industry cried fowl when helicopter training went to full funding in 2002.
Those names include the Harveys,Spencer Bowers etc. They sent formal letters to Steve Maharey or whoever in government.
They suggested a military type application process or self funding of PPL.
They followed this up two years later with more data proving that the jobs were not there and something like 85% of funded CPLs never renewed their medicals.
Eventually they gave up I guess and thought the industry would eventually adjust itself.
You should remember that in order to provide full funding the helicopter training provider has to have an "apporoved course" from the MOE.
Thats why Massey and NMIT are there patching on a few management/HF/POF/etc. papers to make it approvable.
Now who does the MOE listen to when it needs advice on this debacle?
Those in control of the big universities and flying schools that are training most of the pilots.
Classic lobbying of politicians people.
The FW side of all this does have some small justification, indeed its Air NZs unofficial cadetship program. They are very resistant to any slowdown of student loans. But helicopters? your all right, its been done completely the wrong way.
Myself I saved money overseas and returned to NZ in 2002 to start training and used half of my savings and half on the loan so I could invest in property which at the time was booming. That has payed off a good portion of the loan and Im glad I did it.Thank you the Nanny state of NZ!
Those names include the Harveys,Spencer Bowers etc. They sent formal letters to Steve Maharey or whoever in government.
They suggested a military type application process or self funding of PPL.
They followed this up two years later with more data proving that the jobs were not there and something like 85% of funded CPLs never renewed their medicals.
Eventually they gave up I guess and thought the industry would eventually adjust itself.
You should remember that in order to provide full funding the helicopter training provider has to have an "apporoved course" from the MOE.
Thats why Massey and NMIT are there patching on a few management/HF/POF/etc. papers to make it approvable.
Now who does the MOE listen to when it needs advice on this debacle?
Those in control of the big universities and flying schools that are training most of the pilots.
Classic lobbying of politicians people.
The FW side of all this does have some small justification, indeed its Air NZs unofficial cadetship program. They are very resistant to any slowdown of student loans. But helicopters? your all right, its been done completely the wrong way.
Myself I saved money overseas and returned to NZ in 2002 to start training and used half of my savings and half on the loan so I could invest in property which at the time was booming. That has payed off a good portion of the loan and Im glad I did it.Thank you the Nanny state of NZ!
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Hi Simon...
...it's a big step heading for NZ in the hope that you may like and may have the necessary personal qualities to fly helicopters.
At the very least I'd suggest that you get a few hours under your belt before you make that life-changing decision.
Oh it's "my partner and I"... not "Me and my...etc...
Well, if you're going to be a professional...!
Good luck anyway.
BM
At the very least I'd suggest that you get a few hours under your belt before you make that life-changing decision.
Oh it's "my partner and I"... not "Me and my...etc...
Well, if you're going to be a professional...!
Good luck anyway.
BM
NZ is a small country with a lot of highly experienced native pilots. Australia, PNG & Canada are all full of kiwis who have gone overseas to work, & a lot of them have done so due to the lack of opportunity in NZ compared to the number of pilots. The government there has introduced a loan scheme which student pilots can access to finance their pilots licence, so the schools will have picked up a bit but I can see a larger glut of hopefuls coming & a lot of them are heading for Australia. Australia has more opportunity for low time piston pilots, but operators there are very anal about the coveted turbine time & therefore it can be difficult to make the break from reciprocating to turbine.
NZ would no doubt be a good place to do your licence, but if you make it your base be prepared to either spend a lot of time away from home or to pack up & move again as the opportunities arise. It is possible to settle in one place, be home most of the time & fly helicopters but in my experience those types of jobs are either minimum wage or coveted by those of us who have travelled the world & are now looking to settle so our kids can get to know their teachers name.
You've made a good start enquiring on Pprune as there is a lot of experienced kiwi members, so keep up the research, be prepared to change your mind a few times & at the end of the day do whatever will make you happy. Unfortunately for you & fortunate for the removalist companies is that what makes you happy today won't keep you happy tomorrow, or is that just me?!?!
NZ would no doubt be a good place to do your licence, but if you make it your base be prepared to either spend a lot of time away from home or to pack up & move again as the opportunities arise. It is possible to settle in one place, be home most of the time & fly helicopters but in my experience those types of jobs are either minimum wage or coveted by those of us who have travelled the world & are now looking to settle so our kids can get to know their teachers name.
You've made a good start enquiring on Pprune as there is a lot of experienced kiwi members, so keep up the research, be prepared to change your mind a few times & at the end of the day do whatever will make you happy. Unfortunately for you & fortunate for the removalist companies is that what makes you happy today won't keep you happy tomorrow, or is that just me?!?!